DanielSSJ wrote:apex_pretador wrote:
Bringing up another point here - Freeza 100% > Super Saiyan goku.
Freeza 100% and super saiyan goku fought evenly before freeza got tired (after using his force-field / after porunga). However , whatever power he lost due to
- Genki dama, which nearly killed him
- Beatdown from newly transformed super saiyan goku, when he was still at 50%
was not recovered.
So, 100% damaged freeza =< SS Goku (new) << 100% Healthy freeza
I generally go with the idea that the previous beatings Freeza got ended up diminishing his stamina rather than affecting his actual power output.
Why so? Where do the 20 million points (power loss) come from?
RandomGuy96 wrote:Goku outright says he's the strongest in the universe now, which was the entire point.
Goku says freeza is the strongest in the universe.
Freeza 100% and super saiyan goku fought evenly before freeza got tired (after using his force-field / after porunga)
.
At no point in the fight were they even. Goku was kicking the shit out of him.
If anything, Freeza had the advantage beofre porunga appeared. You need to check the fight again.
However , whatever power he lost due to
- Genki dama, which nearly killed him
- Beatdown from newly transformed super saiyan goku, when he was still at 50%
was not recovered.
He lost no power. Since he explicitly states that he was using 100% of his power, not some arbitrary number below 100% because he couldn't reach 100%.
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Where do the ~24 million PL points come from? Or you are saying that freeza took 0 damage from genki dama? Despite him saying he did nearly die? Or he wasn't referring to his "current" 100%?
RandomGuy96 wrote:LightBing wrote:He lost power, he admits it himself. We have to take the 100% in context, we can't just ignore everything that happened beforehand.
There's no context to ignore. 100% is 100%. When Freeza said 100% power, he meant 100% power, likely because his transformation rejuvenated him the same way his previous ones did.
He never transformed after his FINAL FORM. Final form is final form. 100% varies with condition, but final form is always final form, unless freeza had an ultimate evolution.
Also, I don't remember Freeza eating a senzu thet goku threw at him so that he could recover his energy. Am I missing something?
DanielSSJ wrote:
I wouldn't say it was one-sided, but Goku did have the advantage throughout the fight. In fact, the only time I saw Freeza really get the drop on Goku was during that Kamehameha/Barrier struggle that the two had, and that was because Freeza ducked around it and smacked into Goku while he was off-guard.
Goku NEVER had the advantage before freeza's stamina started to drop (after porunga).
As far as I'm concerned, Goku surpassed Freeza in that fight, period. Regardless of whether or not Goku and Freeza were at their best or if they were weakened from the previous fight, it wouldn't fit the theme that Goku only won because of Freeza's previous injuries.
I'm not saying goku only won due to injuries of freeza. Even if they both were fresh, Goku would've won like he did in RoF, which was made to be an alternate take on freeza arc IMO.
Sometimes you have to look past the in-universe conditions and remember that this is a work of fiction, and that the author has a reason for writing events the way he does.
The author had a reason to only get freeza down after stamina drop, not without that.
The author had a reason to have the fight even before that point
The author had a reason to show freeza heavily, HEAVILY damaged
The author had a reason to ask gohan say freeza is not even close to namek levels when he was fodderized by trunks
The point of the fight was to show that Goku well and truly surpassed Freeza, that he triumphed over the one who brought his people to near extinction and the one who killed his best friend.
Goku has shown again and again that he doesn't need power advantage to truly surpass someone.
It's the same argument I make when people question the base Goku can't beat Freeza thing from Battle of Gods. If the statement were untrue, it would've been contested or proven wrong at some point. What reason wold the author have to put it in there and never have anyone question it if it weren't true?
Not sure how base goku << Freeza situation relates here
Khin wrote:After reading the Strength Checker again. I pretty much agree with RandomGuy here. Freeza has to be in his 100% Power at that time, or else this line wouldn't sense.
Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”
Not to mention in the Mecha Arc, Freeza didn't said anything about how he was beaten by Goku because was injured or something.
That can refer to the current best / current 100%.
I fail to see how the incredibly huge power loss from genki dama is recovered.
ahill1 wrote:I agree. Freeza had to be at 100%, otherwise it wouldn't make sense IMO. 100% means 100%. Freeza could have lost a bit of power after his Nova Strike though.
I just respectfully disagree that SSJ Goku was owning Freeza from the beginning, mainly after reading this thread:
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8397852/3/
and power loss is power loss unless healed by senzu or dende. How was the power loss healed?