Your Problem(s) with DragonBall Super

[Li'l Lemmy]

So this is an argument I'm hearing over and over again as time goes by and production rolls on.

"DragonBall Super is ruining the franchise. There's no darkness/stakes/tension, certain characters are being abused/misapplied/neglected, the animation/pacing/writing is nothing compared to Z," etcetera.

I've seen negativity towards Super crop up in a lot of threads. I mean, a LOT. In places where I would not ordinarily expect to read them. Sometimes it emerges as an organic extension of the existing discussion, but most other times it reads to me as a snark interjection meant to dismiss any possible enjoyment of Super others may have because x member really dislikes it and can't understand why others (read: everyone) do not share that opinion. While admins and mods are free to regulate these discussions as they see fit, and I myself would not necessarily call it a "problem," I would like to take an active role in diverting at least some of that negativity to a more appropriate area.

What is the purpose of the thread? The purpose is legitimate criticism of DragonBall Super.

It's not simply about blowing off steam. This is not meant as a "bashing" thread. While a small amount of that is no doubt unavoidable, I would hope that most of us take the high road here. The idea I have in mind is that genuine concerns or criticisms about Super that are

A.) too generalized to be pertinent to other threads where criticisms are NOT the intended focus, i.e:
OP: How will Trunks x Mai develop?
Reply: Super fucking sucks, so who gives a shit.

B.) or too specific to continuously repeat in what are either very generalized or alternate discussions, such as:
OP: How strong is Black?
Reply: Trunks' hair is blue when it should be purple, OMG WAI.

can be debated and explored here instead. Do you have an issue, general or specific, with some aspect of the series? Why? What would you like to see changed? Criticism isn't just about pointing out that something sucks; it's a constructive tool that can be used to shape perspectives on how those things can be improved, not merely a window into what someone thinks is "wrong". Obviously we are not going to effect changes to Super ourselves, but if we could, we should logically be capable to explain the reasoning behind our opinions.

What do you want the series, or some part of it, to be, versus what is currently is, and why.

Let's give it a try!


~Da Lemmy

[Gyt Kaliba]

First of all, I have to thank you for putting this thread together, Lemmy. It's a great idea that I really hope takes off. Second of all though, I kind of fear it won't - without going into too many specifics, I find it eerily telling that nobody else has responded to this as of yet (unless someone ninja's my post here), despite it being posted quite a while earlier. That doesn't in-of-itself say anything, but it is pretty curious, given how quickly similar posts as what this one calls for, in essence, fly by in different threads.

Anyway, my own problems are essentially far and few between outside of extremely one-character specific moments (ie the 'twist' with Frost), but for something like this I think it'd be far more proper, at least from my own point of view, to talk about things that are more about the show as a whole, rather than a particular moment with one particular character, or anything. So with that in mind -

1) The music is, for the most part, pretty forgettable. And that saddens me. After the amazing score we had via Kikuchi for DB and Z, and Tokunaga's in GT, and even Yamamoto's for Kai - heck, even for the Falcouner score IMO - it's just kind of sad to have a score that's so utterly forgettable. And it's even more sad to me, since I actually quite liked our current composer's work in Battle of Gods. But then Resurrection 'F' came along and was kinda just there as well, and then his Boo Kai stuff from what I've heard is worse than forgettable, it's awful, so now moving into Super it's mostly just...kinda been there too.

That said, I did quite like the music we just got in the first episode of our new arc that's starting up though, so there could be hope yet. I hope so, at least.

2) The pacing - I get that they don't have to drag things out, but sometimes the pacing just seems a little too fast, and other times a little too slow. The Battle of Gods arc overstayed it's welcome in the end, and the Resurrection 'F' one, even with more done to change things up, also kind of felt like it didn't make the most of what it had. The Champa arc likewise kinda seemed a little by-the-numbers in retrospect. So far, everything has been doing it's best to fit neatly into a 13-15 or so batch of episodes, sometimes counting the between arcs 'fluff' and other times not. I'm hoping the current Future Trunks arc bucks that trend and fleshes things out better, as well as taking whatever time is needed to tell it's story. Cuz it's not that I'm against 13-15 episode arcs, it's just that after getting three of those in a row, all of which do have some minor failings or another, I can't help but feel like they were designed around that episode count rather than the episode count coming from the story's need for them to have such-and-such number of episodes, if that makes any sense.

I'm sure there are other things, but I'd have to think on it a bit more first, so I'll get back to you on them.

[VeteranX]

I really dislike Goku's treatment in super. Not necessarily in screen time but more along the lines of his character. Toei has made him seem way more stupid and childish than he is usually. He was more of a innocent type of dumb than moronic(which seems they borrowed from luffy's personality).It makes me wonder how much Toriyama really is supervising the show.

[ryou766]

(which seems they borrowed from luffy's personality).

You mean Luffy borrowed some aspects of Goku's personality.

[fadeddreams5]

I was going to make this topic the other day--partially to vent--but I got lazy. Kudos.

[VeteranX]

(which seems they borrowed from luffy's personality).

You mean Luffy borrowed some aspects of Goku's personality.

No I meant as how he acts now. Of course luffy got traits from his personality(most shonen characters do). While goku can be dumb he is not this moronic(aka luffy).

[Li'l Lemmy]

First of all, I have to thank you for putting this thread together, Lemmy. It's a great idea that I really hope takes off. Second of all though, I kind of fear it won't - without going into too many specifics, I find it eerily telling that nobody else has responded to this as of yet (unless someone ninja's my post here), despite it being posted quite a while earlier. That doesn't in-of-itself say anything, but it is pretty curious, given how quickly similar posts as what this one calls for, in essence, fly by in different threads.

I have an hilariously bad track record when it comes to threads. They don't usually "take off", so I rarely start them. But we'll see!

At any rate, it just seemed like a good concept to attempt. Maybe there's an audience for it.

So far, everything has been doing it's best to fit neatly into a 13-15 or so batch of episodes, sometimes counting the between arcs 'fluff' and other times not. I'm hoping the current Future Trunks arc bucks that trend and fleshes things out better, as well as taking whatever time is needed to tell it's story. Cuz it's not that I'm against 13-15 episode arcs, it's just that after getting three of those in a row, all of which do have some minor failings or another, I can't help but feel like they were designed around that episode count rather than the episode count coming from the story's need for them to have such-and-such number of episodes, if that makes any sense.

In my view, the problem here is that Super appears to be much more homogenized than past iterations of DB. It exists to continue a story but mostly to sell a product or brand, somewhat disproportionately, whereas the other series were also about these two things but with differently tipped scales in the reverse. Dragonball and DragonBall Z were extensions of the manga, which did not have much of a "schedule" in terms of how long an arc might last. Toriyama-sensei controlled the flow and progression. People read it and bought merchandise for it, but merchandise sold (I would imagine) because of how popular the series was rather than a series existing mostly to push merchandise... which is what I think Super is. Which is not inherently bad; it's hardly alone. Obviously no show stays for long in the Japanese market without strong merchandise sales, and certainly DragonBall Z cranked out endless merchandise to that end; however, it did not have to fight for those sales, they were generated naturally because it was popular. The anime made a point of mostly sticking to the manga without trying to truncate anything; It even expanded upon it with filler, for reasons we are all familiar with. Super, by contrast, has no manga (or rather, is not led by one) and is based on nothing but a general plot outline from Toriyama, and Dragonball itself is not the guaranteed powerhouse it was way back when. Super is a risk; it's not a hot new item, it's an existing item that Toei is hoping to make popular again, which is a much harder sell. So the thinking may be that arcs are packaged in neat little cubes so that production knows in advance when a switch is to occur, so the merchandise machine can schedule itself around the events and (possibly) so that things can be accelerated/altered if a particular arc is not doing well in ratings or sales.

That would be my thinking, anyway, although much of it is supposition and very little can be corroborated as solid fact.

I really dislike Goku's treatment in super. Not necessarily in screen time but more along the lines of his character. Toei has made him seem way more stupid and childish than he is usually. He was more of a innocent type of dumb than moronic(which seems they borrowed from luffy's personality).It makes me wonder how much Toriyama really is supervising the show.

I do notice, at least according to many episode-by-episode commentaries, that Goku seems to be getting more and more "dumbed down". I don't necessarily think it violates the character egregiously (as his level of intelligence has always been at least somewhat elastic), but if Goku is starting to lose common sense then it might be time to reign it in just a touch.

I was going to make this topic the other day--partially to vent--but I got lazy. Kudos.

And to you for participating!


~Da Lemmy

[Zephyr]

This is a good thread, with a good purpose in mind. I hope it succeeds!

x member really dislikes it and can't understand why others (read: everyone) do not share that opinion.

It always baffles me when someone says they "literally can't understand why someone feels X way" about something. Like, did they take the time to try to appreciate things from the other person's viewpoint? Do they not have much practice empathizing with those who disagree with them?

As for what I dislike about Super, it's largely the atmosphere. I've been corrupted by Kunzait's posts and threads into viewing Dragon Ball as wuxia. Mystical kung fu stuff. When I rewatch the old anime, it just gives off so much of that "mystical kung fu" vibe that it's magical. The music, the characters, even the aged looking art style. It all comes together to paint a cohesive atmosphere that I love.

With Super? They changed pretty much all of that. Sumitomo's musical score just sounds so utterly generic, unlike the kind of thing I'd hear in a martial arts movie. It contributes negatively to the atmosphere that helps makes Dragon Ball so appealing to me.

Likewise with the artstyle. Even when it's on model nowadays, it's too plastic-y and shiny. The shading is odd. I think that the lack of film grain, and thus the "fresh newness" feel that it has makes it feel less dated, less archaic, less mysterious and mystical in nature. The film grain also helps to hide the lack of detail, I think, because it almost looks textured, in a way. Probably in the minority opinion regarding all of that.

There's also Joji Yanami. Due to health reasons, he wasn't able to give us the kind of performance he gave way back when. His old performance was perfect. That "wise old sage" voice was a perfect narrator/god combo for a series like this. Unfortunately, due to his health he was naturally incapable of delivering the same level of performance, and was eventually replaced, by someone who likewise doesn't quite fill the shoes left by Yanami of DB/Z/GT.

Hironobu Kageyama being absent is also maddening. I know he wasn't singing the theme in Dragon Ball, but Cha La Head Cha La evokes that sort of atmosphere that I've been prattling on about. Super's theme is...alright. It doesn't give off the same feelings though. Kageyama's vocals tend to send chills down my spine, almost every time I listen to the song. Super's theme's really doesn't.

---

All in all, I can't really be angry at those producing the series for not delivering what I liked most from Dragon Ball of old. People age, people move on to different jobs, and new markets need to be appealed to. I understand that entirely. It's just unfortunate that we're left with something that doesn't have the same sort of atmosphere that contributed so greatly to what made Dragon Ball memorable and enjoyable to me.

I guess that in a way Dragon Ball for me is something that really doesn't need to be brought back, at least not as an anime. We can have Toriyama and Toyotaro draw manga together for a while more now, and we don't have to pick the lesser of two evils between forcing Kageyama, Kikuchi, Yanami, etc. to keep doing what they've been doing, and replacing them with inevitably inferior counterparts. I think that's largely why I prefer Super's manga to the anime. I don't have to deal with what I see as strictly inferior art, music, and voice acting.

---

Characterization, plot point consistency, character usage, and the like are all important to me too, but drastically less so than all of the above (which could be summed up as "atmosphere"). In a perfect world, we'd have it all. If I had to choose between narrative strength and atmosphere, I'd probably go with atmosphere (since narrative strength has never been something that Dragon Ball has been the poster child for). If we had solid narrative strength, I'd still be miffed by all of the stuff detrimentally effecting the atmosphere.

In spite of that all, though, when Super has both poor narrative consistency and atmosphere, I'm still finding myself able to enjoy it.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball Super got screwed over by being rushed into production, having a bad character designer and being poorly produced despite the chairman of Toei Animation personally overseeing the planning of the series. That genuine good staff like Chioka Kimitoshi, Hatano Morio, Tate Naoki, Ootsuka Ken, Shimizu Junji, Kakudou Hiroyuki and many others have been placed into such a position is a sham.

The music is also dreadful. Absolutely dreadful. Dear Lord. Music that lack resonance or all sounds the same. It's like watching an episode of Star Trek under Rick Berman's reign.

[emi_b7]

I really enjoy Super, flawed as it is. With that said, there are some things that bother me, like:
1) The music is bad. Not only is it boring, sometimes it doesn't even fit the tone of what's happening. I seems like it improved for this arc though.
2) The lightning and shadows in character faces. Inconsistent art doesn't bother me that much, as long as as it isn't terrible (which hasn't been the case lately, for the most part), the same with the animation, but I hate how the characters look like they are made of wax, oiled, sweaty or whatever. I don't know who came up with that style, but I truly hate that more than I should lol
3) Freeza's arc. I understand retelling BOG movie in the show, because it introduced a lot of new stuff, but I will never understand why they thought retelling ROF was a good idea. The only thing that movie introduced was SSB and Jaco, which they could have easily introduced in Super without telling that story. At first I thought some of the other plot points from this arc (Gohan starting to train again, Whis time travel, Goku and Vegeta's flaws and their need to team up) would be relevant in the following arc(s), but so far that hasn't happened. It may happen eventually, but I still think this arc was pointless. Also, it is a terrible arc IMO, both premise and execution wise.

[Lord Beerus]

The biggest issue I have with Super is the general vague nature of the of the narrative. Dragon Ball's never had a detailed story, and the world building itself isn't all it's cracked up to be, but with Super the writers seem more than often contempt to just take the option of not bothering to provide any kind of detail or background or tidbit, especially in scenarios where it could desperately need it. Vegeta becoming a Super Saiyan Blue is the biggest offender of this. The method in which the form was attained was very intriguing and unique within the universe of Dragon Ball itself. I mean, combining two transformations together to essentially create a unique, and in a way "ultimate", form for your own was quite unprecedented in the franchise itself and could open the door the further possibilities of the Super Saiyan transformations we never knew were possible. It could have also widened the approach for how we view Ki as whole and would have made Whis' training all the mystical. But instead they just choose the cop-out of Vegeta just training to attain the form. No expansion of the Super Saiyan God transformation. No deeper look in the structure of Ki. No further insight in the mechanics of the Super Saiyan form. Nothing. Just Vegeta doing some push ups, sit ups and crunches and he's becomes SSJB.

I hate that.

I hate that so fucking much.

I believe SSJ4 was when the series jumped the shark but at least GT provided some kind hint or planted a theory for how the SSJ4 form could be achieved that made sense with the context of the story and didn't seem lazy.

Jaco is another major misfire. I really didn't like how he was thrown into the plot without any wider context of how he fits into the story and what his integral role and relation is to the cast in-universe is. And this instance is even more inexcusable when Super has a perfectly well structured and paced manga that could have been turned into a mini-arc while also expanding of the Galactic Patrol to make Jaco seem more in place with the Dragon Ball universe when he debuts rather than just a character who was shoehorned into the plot the make up the number for when Freeza's and his army invaded Earth. It's all so jarring that people are supposed to take on face value Jaco's character when, as far as those who haven't read Jaco The Galactic Patrolman, when Super has provided so little and barely goes into more detail of just how he supposedly weaves in the lore of the story other than he works for the Galactic Patrol and knows Bulma's sister. Hell, the fact that Bulma has a sister that seemingly only Jaco, outside of Tight's family, knows about just makes the lack of depth into Jaco's own character all the more disappointing and lazy.

There have always been instances in the franchise where events have happened and forms had been achieved off-screen and you think to yourself, "How did that happened?" But would could always look back the manga or anime and in most instances you'd get a throwaway line or flashback or filler moment that could at least provide some form of context to the fill the void of information that was needed to understand the scenario. In Super, we barely, if at all, get that. And it really frustrates me.

[Gyt Kaliba]

That's another good point, Lord Beerus, or at least, you've raised a side-point that I admit I have an issue with.

3) The assumption that people watching Super have also seen the newest movies and read Jaco, so they can just roll with new stuff introduced there without any further explanation. I mean, it is a fairly safe assumption, but that's beside the point - if they're going to re-adapt stuff like the two films, then they should have kept the pertinent information. For this, I'm mainly referring to the Pilaf gang and their new child forms. We know why from Battle of Gods, but Super itself offers absolutely no explanation for it, thus making it an 'elephant in the room' kinda. It's just so weird for it not to be explained properly in the series. Surely they could have freed up a minute or so of time in one of the earlier episodes to explain it, and just had one minute less of Goku and Beerus trading blows...or dear god, one minute less of Vegeta's over-the-top reaction to Bulma getting hit.

This goes doubly for Jaco since not even Resurrection 'F' in it's original film form really gave much in the way of explanation for who he was. Super had the perfect chance to fix this though. They could have probably done the story of Jaco's manga in like one, two episodes or so maybe, at the end of the Resurrection 'F' arc. You know, maybe have Goku and Vegeta finally question who the heck this little alien guy Bulma knew was. They could have still crafted it in such a way that Goku and the others don't really realize that Goku was the alien baby Jaco was meant to take out (though Jaco realizing this could be hilarious if done right), and it would have also given us a much better reaction to the fact that Bulma has a sister they've never met. Instead, Jaco's just kinda thrust in, and while I relish his inclusion because I really like Jaco, that doesn't change that it's lazy.

[pacz360]

The fights itself are awful in super the only good fight in it was goku Vs hit and vegeta Vs magetta every other fight has been mediocre or flat-out awful sometimes it makes even the fights in gt look better in comparison this is a series that was known for fighting yet besides maybe hit Vs goku all the fights been forgettable and inferior to the ones we got in part 1 and z

[Hellspawn28]

I feel like some of the pacing could have been better. It took way too long for the movie retellings to be done. I know Toei wanted something to replace Kai for July, but they should have waited until January and done a 5 minute recap of the movies. Also the Black Water story arc with Copy Vegeta was really boring and pointless. Why make a story arc if it was never going to be reference ever again.

[TekTheNinja]

"DragonBall Super is ruining the franchise. There's no darkness/stakes/tension, certain characters are being abused/misapplied/neglected, the animation/pacing/writing is nothing compared to Z," etcetera.

Honestly... You basically summed it up yourself there.

[sintzu]

The under usage of the other characters : Z was known for its utilization of a big cast of characters but Super is only using 2 and pushing everyone else like Gohan to the side, the same Gohan who beat Cell and was written to take over from Goku

The soundtrack : It's not complete garbage but it's lacking compared to what we had in DB&Z

The character designs : Red Ssj, Blue Ssj, fat Beerus, female Whis, mini adult Gohan, alternate Freeza, Golden Freeza, evil Goku, couldn't Toriyama come up with something a bit more original or different ?

Rehashed or underwhelming stories : BOG was a great movie but they turned it into an unnecessarily long arc and left out one of its main plot points, Both versions of RF were underdeveloped copies of the Namek arc & the Champa arc could've been so much more but instead it was just a generic tournament.

The overall production is a mess, sure there are some good moments here and there but it needs a lot of work.

The writing and especially Goku's is atrocious and to the point where these characters aren't who they were in the original.

The lack of tension and danger, during the RF story Beerus&Whis were on the side to help if anything went wrong and there were 0 stakes during the tournament arc due to the only thing being on the line was their planet's location.

The constant cutting to "comedy" during serious moments.

[ChronoTwigger]

People love DBZ. So Super had to be like DBZ, with all the same tropes. That why people complain about so much. Hey guys, wake up: DBZ ENDED!

On my side, what I hate the most it's:

1 - I don't mind a f... about movies. When they aired in Japan I was hospitalized, so, I don't care for. Anyway, I NEVER care for anime movies from series. They usually sucks and are cashgrabber.
So, the first 30 episodes and theyr budgets was spent to tell me about something I don't care for, and with ominous results too.
DBS got a great increase in quality since Champa arc...

2 - The need of a 100+ episodes (or 300+ or 800+), when with 23 episodes Death Note created an empire. With more care they could have done a little masterpiece, grab the cash, and maybe if founds allowed it another second arc.
Nowadays, with web, you can see episodes when you want, so no need to have people watching TV every day.
I think the whole operation was somehow screwed and rushed by bad choices.

3 - I don't like the sum of HD, clear line style and flat colours. The old low res series blurred a little the images, giving an artistic, painting feel. Nowadays, you need to have more detailed shades, nothing "blur" the image.
I mean that.

Cathodic and 2 shades > look good, seems a drawing.


HD and 2 shades > look bad and amateurish (even if in fact the scene is more complex and detailed!!)


HD and 4 shades >look amazing!

[Kakarotto92]

-Art inconsistency and unfinished animation (one frame you have gorgeous almost movie 13 quality art, then the next frame you have something looking like it was drawn on Microsoft Paint by a 5 year old)
-Goku being portrayed as an annoying brat with an extra chromosome. Sure he was also an immature and goofy manchild on Z but he was never this campy and over-the-top. This is definitely not the Goku I grew up with and love. As someone else already pointed out, his behaviour and quirks in Super are more akin to what you would expect from Luffy.
-FnF and Champa arc were too fast paced. Fnf retell could have expanded on elements the movie couldn't due to its movie length, not to mention Goku vs Freeza match was too short lived; Universal tournament fights were too short when compared to original DB TB matches.
-Sumitomo is a solid composer but his lighthearted/"fun" tracks are so dreadful it takes me out of the show. He works much better with an orchestra than with synthesizers.
-Overused food gags. They made sense during the BoG retell but after that it got old real fast and at this point they're just insufferable.
-Goten and Trunks being drawn like toddlers.

On the upside, most of these are Toei's responsibility and I'm not really having any major issue with Toriyama's draft and Toyotaro's manga adaptation. Okay, maybe just one: I'd prefer if Super happened in EoZ era, but I've learned to live with that at this point. Other than that, I'm enjoying the ride and hope Super lasts for many years to come .

[kinisking]

Goku's stupidity, Gohan, Piccolo not winning a fight, animation at times.

[sintzu]

People love DBZ. So Super had to be like DBZ, with all the same tropes. That why people complain about so much. Hey guys, wake up: DBZ ENDED.

If expecting it to be at least as good as a 20+ year old show is too much then that alone proves there's a lot wrong with Super.

Expecting a successor to at least live up to what came before it is completely normal and is the slandered for everything else so why doesn't this apply to Super ? because it has Toriyama's name on it ? I'm 100% sure that this would be the most hated DB product if it didn't have his name on it and vice versa, if GT had his name on it, it wouldn't get nearly as much hate as it does.