Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[Darkron2151]

So...

Kaioken?
Zenkai allows her to win in base?
Teleport him out of the arena type fuckery?

Vote now!

None of the above. There's no need. Even if she doesn't get a zenkai, Bra is now fresh with 100% strength/stamina and no injury while Cold has seemingly lost his strength/speed advantage due to injury/fatigue. Unless Cold does some crafty stuff in the next few pages, his chances are slim.

[Saiga]

Indeed it does, and it's not the parody pictured above.

Flaws aren't worth shit without consequences. Even villains can be Sues, and they're full of flaws.

But a character who manages to avoid lasting consequences for their flaws might as well be flawless.

Like Goku?

The only thing threatening to make the Sue term meaningless is people insisting the definition is so narrow that it can't be applied to anyone.

It's supposed to be narrow. That's what words do--they narrow down intent and ideally avoid ambiguity. Whether or not a character is a Mary Sue is relative to the surrounding cast--it happens when an author puts all the good qualities into a single person at the expense of everyone else. Whether or not Bra is a good character is debatable but she doesn't meet the definition of Mary Sue. It isn't a catch-all term for "fan wank."

Goku has died due to the consequence of his actions. Arguably twice. He's gotten people killed due to his own whims.

Even then, there is a noticeable problem with Goku not facing the same consequences as another character would. That issue is even more noticeable in Bra, especially when she doesn't have the same balance or depth Goku has.

And no, that explanation is asinine. You don't need to act like I need the definition of words explained to me. I very specifically stated that it was TOO narrow to be useful. That is an absolute possibility with language.

Even that definition you provided is one I have never seen used as a criteria, it's also silly to take that thing seriously. Do you actually mean if you take a mary sue and put them next to a character with one positive trait then they won't be a sue? Absurd.

I am not using the term to describe fan wank or I would have included Cold in that. Or many other things in the manga really.

But at the end of the day, I think people obsess over the label too much. Arguing over the exact application of the label doesn't address the story criticisms that lead to that conclusion being drawn.

Bra is a very poorly written character for the same reasons I believe she is a Sue.

[miguelnuva1]

Medaka is a mary sue, compare her to Bra and they act nothing alike.

Bra is simply a saiyan with no one to challenge her, all the saiyans save Goku acted like what she is doing now.

I still want U18 Goku to humble her though.

[rereboy]

Bra is not even as big of a "Mary sue" as Vegetto.

Also, that term is seriously overused.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

The only "Mary Sue" thing that Bra & Vegetto have going on is them being overpowered and nothing else.

[rereboy]

So, Bra uses her brain and you hate her for that. Seriously people...

Indeed. Too much hate.

[TonyTheTiger]

It's just stupid to call a character a Mary Sue without defining the specifics of what makes one such. If having excessive power and being a dipshit is what makes Bra one then so is Gotenks. Bra isn't a Mary Sue because the tropes that apply to her are also distributed among the rest of the cast. That's what "relative" means. A character with blue hair, godlike power, and flawless beauty might trigger some Mary Sue vibes...but not if those traits are normal for the setting. What does Bra actually do that is out of the ordinary for Dragon Ball? She's not even an original character, just an extrapolation of what a hypothetical Bra fathered by Vegetto would be. She isn't even really the main character.

Not to mention, people are using "Mary Sue" as an insult when it really isn't one. The trope can be done well--eg. Forrest Gump.

[miguelnuva1]

Day what.you want about Salagir he gave Vegito and Bra plenty of flaws.

Overpowered- maybe
Badly written- possibly
Mary/gary sues- no

As I said before look at Madeka from Madeka Box and compare her to Bra.

[testing223]

Comments by Mr Sal:

"Everybody have every right to hate Bra. She's not written to be likable. Vegeta too by the way, but everybody likes him. Go figure.
Anyway, we have here a girl that can be of course seen as spoiled, but can you blame her? Born with amazing powers, raised by the worst of Goku and the worst of Vegeta combined, pushed by a "double" saiyan genetics, she wants to fight, but the entire universe is too weak for her.
The only people who could challenge her are her family. And Saiyans usually like real challenge, with real enemies.
So, if you don't like her. No pb.

Still, I'm amazed by the double standard that is used on her, compared to, for example again, the awful Vegeta, who single-handedly threatened by his actions the Earth more than Cell, Freeza and Buu combined.
(Attacked earth, created perfect Cell, freed Buu, destroyed the potaras-twice)

So I'll defend the child a little.

On page 288 (seen above), we're talking about an even younger child making manga humor. And we all know she is a bad diplomat.
Gokû himself hurted many people this way, including Chichi (sent thru the house wall, a tree, and into a rock, by a gentle tap on the back).

About Zangya, even angry, her intent was not to kill her. She sent a air wave at her. She sent air, come on! In a very angry state, she used the most harmless technique she could, but the difference in power was far too big. She really tried, and Vegetto, knowing from how far she comes, agrees with that. Bra became angry but it was in front what? The friend of the guy who killed her sister in a gruesome manner, both joking much about it. She really made an effort. Just imagine the reactions of most other people of the cast in front of that...

What else. She isn't humble? Of course. She is number 2 of the universe an almost born this way. Hard to be humble. Cite me any DBZ character who was born uber-strong and was humble."



Later:
"I must say I love the enthusiasm I see in the comments since last page!

I won't try to defend my story here. I'll just say:

- Saiyan pride? Where does that come from? Don't you confuse with Vegeta's pride?
Is Saiyan pride the pride of geniciding entire weaker innocent populations, or to take a small child hostage and deciding to kill him because he'll be a future menace?

- In my first draft of DBM, Vegeta what the first one to use a senzu in the tournament. Goooood thing I changed that, ahaha!

- Eating a senzu, whatever the context, isn't difficult. Don't spend too much time on this very small issue. She got easy access to them, you didn't see all her moves between panels.
And this gravity doesn't even pull hairs down nor shred clothes, an not even group all matter in a black hole as it should! This is DBZ gravity, the same universe physics where voices like "Behind you!" can have an effect on warriors fighting way way faster than mach 10...

- I love all the comments and many made me laugh. Many critics can be very true And I'm very sorry I didn't cut Uub's arm this time, now I want to change that ;p"



People are too hard on Mr. Sal, he's just entertaining the fans.

[ryou766]

That literally did not make this any less bullshit than it is.

[Scarz]

Bra's gonna win and she's not going to learn a goddamn thing, and I love it!

[Saiga]

It's just stupid to call a character a Mary Sue without defining the specifics of what makes one such. If having excessive power and being a dipshit is what makes Bra one then so is Gotenks. Bra isn't a Mary Sue because the tropes that apply to her are also distributed among the rest of the cast. That's what "relative" means. A character with blue hair, godlike power, and flawless beauty might trigger some Mary Sue vibes...but not if those traits are normal for the setting. What does Bra actually do that is out of the ordinary for Dragon Ball? She's not even an original character, just an extrapolation of what a hypothetical Bra fathered by Vegetto would be. She isn't even really the main character.

Not to mention, people are using "Mary Sue" as an insult when it really isn't one. The trope can be done well--eg. Forrest Gump.

Even if they were distributing them among the rest of the cast, that would be entirely different to dumping them on one character.

Bra has many traits that make me call her a Sue - or at the very least, poorly written. Saying she isn't an original character is absurd, she has different parentage from the manga's Bra! So different DNA, different personality, powers... she just shares the same mother and name as the manga's Bra.

Which is actually pretty common for fanfiction Sues, to use a virtually non-existent canon character as a template and then completely overhauling them.

Anywho, she fits the original concept for the Mary Sue very well - an original character who takes focus away from the original cast and warps the plot around her. Saying she's not "really" the main character is a weak defence, she shouldn't even be comparable to one. She receives a disproportionate amount of focus for no apparent reason, being the most prominent member of U16 despite her father being more powerful and actually based off a canon character.

Her completely bullshit power level IS a very Sue trait, even in series with lots of crazy power ups. You can't measure a Sue by their power level, but it is definitely something to take into consideration. If she were weaker it'd be very hard for her to be warping the plot like this. But I never said anything so basic as "she's a Sue because she's strong" and it's always been the least of her issues with me.

The arrogant, horrible attitude doesn't detract from her Sue profile because it's not a flaw that causes her problems. It just lets her go around being obnoxious without reprisal.

And that's just how she dodges consequences in general. She does exactly what her father told her not to? Eh, you did well anyway. Accept a stupid wager? Just a chance for her to show how clever she is by overcoming adversity.

It has been too long since I have seen Forrest Gump, so I can't exactly say too much on that comparison - but he isn't he a mentally challenged man who experiences consequences from his misguided actions? Doesn't sound like a very good example to me.

At any rate, that's an original work you're talking about - hardly a good comparison.

[TonyTheTiger]

Her completely bullshit power level IS a very Sue trait, even in series with lots of crazy power ups.

How is it any more bullshit than Gotenks?

If she were weaker it'd be very hard for her to be warping the plot like this.

What do you mean "warping the plot"? Other than her matches, has she had any effect at all on DBM?

Bra has many traits that make me call her a Sue - or at the very least, poorly written.

This is the crux of it. Those aren't the same things. One doesn't mean the other. You can even have a well-written Mary Sue (although it is admittedly rare and dangerous territory). Also, Forrest Gump doesn't really face any consequences for his actions. In fact, he's more often rewarded for them. One of the easiest ways to spot a Mary Sue is to ask if the story treats them like Jesus. If everybody in the story were fawning over Bra and constantly commenting on how great she was then that would be a good indicator of a Mary Sue. She isn't getting that kind of special treatment though.

If you want to pick on a DBM character, Gast is a hell of a lot closer to a Mary Sue than Bra is.

[FoolsGil]

Bra's gonna win and she's not going to learn a goddamn thing, and I love it!

I don't know Scarz, if you finish that comic with her and Cold, she'll learn 4 goddamn things. Just saying.

[miguelnuva1]

Bra could still learn a lesson from this near defeat.

[Saiga]

Her completely bullshit power level IS a very Sue trait, even in series with lots of crazy power ups.

How is it any more bullshit than Gotenks?

If she were weaker it'd be very hard for her to be warping the plot like this.

What do you mean "warping the plot"? Other than her matches, has she had any effect at all on DBM?

Bra has many traits that make me call her a Sue - or at the very least, poorly written.

This is the crux of it. Those aren't the same things. One doesn't mean the other. You can even have a well-written Mary Sue (although it is admittedly rare and dangerous territory). Also, Forrest Gump doesn't really face any consequences for his actions. In fact, he's more often rewarded for them. One of the easiest ways to spot a Mary Sue is to ask if the story treats them like Jesus. If everybody in the story were fawning over Bra and constantly commenting on how great she was then that would be a good indicator of a Mary Sue. She isn't getting that kind of special treatment though.

If you want to pick on a DBM character, Gast is a hell of a lot closer to a Mary Sue than Bra is.

(Can't easily separate quotes on my phone)

Because Gotenks is completely different? He's the union of two respectfully strong (but not ridiculously so) characters and only lasts for half an hour at best. And even then, he's weaker than Bra, despite having more going for him.

Sure, Super Saiyan 3 was easily aqcuired for him, but that also means he's topped out. He doesn't achieve anything without using the highest Super Saiyan form. Hell, he doesn't even achieve anything with it.

Well, DBM admittedly has not done much with their plot, so it is more like warping the focus. There isn't much reason for her to have the focus that she does, yet sge is one of the few characters to have an ongoing subplot between their matches. Hell, she has two since she decided to champion U19 as well.

Then there's stuff like the scene where U16 confront Boo in space. It turns into a demonstration of her Super Saiyan 2 form.

It's all this focus on here that adds up. There isn't a particular reason for her to be so prominent, and just like a Mary Sue her focus comes at the expense of the canon characters.

I have never said those mean the same things. However, while not all poorly written characters are a Mary Sue, I would say Mary Sue are a mark of poor writing. At least, using the term as originally intended - a fanfiction trope. You talk about misusing the term, but it was not originally intended to apply to original works like Forest Gump.

Even the Jesus treatment, while certainly common, is not necessary because you can have the "Sue effect" of your OC stealing the show without making them Jesus. At its core, the Mary Sue is taking focus away from the main canon cast without a reasonable justification. That describes Bra very well.

[RandomGuy96]

"Power level on legs" is a pretty good way to sum up Cold. I'm still baffled why they wouldn't at least swap him with Cooler (U9 KK x20 Videl, U3 SS Bardock, and the "Frost Demon" fifth form are all totally arbitrary in terms of power, so nothing would really need to be changed), who at least has something of a personality. Plus, Cooler's whole shtick is that he's the strongest and most competent member of his family, while Cold's whole point is that he's a behind-the-scenes guy, Freeza's sidekick (he defers to him constantly and outright admits to being weaker), and an enormous putz (SERIOUSLY, what was the sword gonna do, you stupid asshole?).

[TonyTheTiger]

I'm not a huge fan of having special sets of rules. For me personally I don't really care if something is an original work or fan fiction. I'll usually apply the same standards across the board. The lines blur anyway with long running franchises. Dome new Dragon Ball stuff like Episode of Bardock reeks of the worst fan fiction cliches and I'm not going to give it a pass just because somebody signed a contract to make it "official."

[Saiga]

It's not a special set of rules. The term was simply made for a specific purpose, and using it outside of that context makes it a lot more subjective or harder to apply.

The titular Lt. Mary Sue was noted for stealing the show away from the canon cast of the original work (in her case, Star Trek) which isn't something the protagonist of a original IP can do exactly.

I'm not saying to give official material a pass and I'm not talking about common fanfiction tropes in general. Just a specific term which came from a commentary on a common fanfiction cliche.

Also, Episode of Bardock would still be different to Forest Gump in that EoB, and any new Dragon Ball products, are derivative works. That does make them similar to fanfiction (another derivative work) and so it can be easier to relate similar situations between the two.

[BlazingBarrrager]

Kind Cold? Accusing Bra on cheating? Joke's on him then. XD