Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[buutenks]

I have one more question: Did Trunks use "Ultra Super Saiyan 2" or SSJ2 Grade III against Vegeta before transforming into his SSJ2? It makes no sense that he'd try to fake out Vegeta using a weaker transformation.

That is what he did. He faked using ssj grade 3. He wanted to make Vegeta to underestimate him, and it worked.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, I've come up with a possible theory to make sense of Trunks' ability to increase SS2 to SS3 levels. In their ROSAT training, Goku and Gohan abandoned stronger, grade forms that gave bigger power increases and instead chose to maximize their SS1 abilities: what if Trunks did the same thing with SS2? Instead of trying to force himself into getting stronger but costlier forms, he trained to make SS2 as strong and as versatile as SS1 full power is?

This theory becomes even more plausible if you believe that Goku & Gohan were able to increase SS1s multiplier upon mastering it. Furthermore, Toriyama also intended on Goku & Vegeta simply discarding SS2 and SS3 and choosing to improve SS1 so it gave them bigger strength increases, implying that weaker forms can get stronger than the powered up variants through training.

The point of mastering regular SS & abandoning the powered-up variations (SSG2, SSG3, SS2, SS3) wasn't to make the SS transformation stronger than its powered-up variations. The point was to get an even more tremendous increase in their base form through training, and abandon the powered-up variations due to their ki consumption, which ends up making them weaker than their regular SS form over time.

In other words, Goku in the Cell Games still gets a x50 boost when he becomes a Super Saiyan, and he can still get even stronger by using Super Saiyan Grade 2 & 3.

[Doctor.]

In other words, Goku in the Cell Games still gets a x50 boost when he becomes a Super Saiyan, and he can still get even stronger by using Super Saiyan Grade 2 & 3.

This doesn't make sense. If he could get stronger with those forms, he would have used them. Grade 2 especially has no noticeable drawbacks. He didn't use them because his mastered Super Saiyan state was stronger.

[Lionel]

I like how Zamasu somehow became so much stronger compared with Kaioshin even after having merged with Kibito. Just what kind of training did he undergo to put him so high up the food chain? He's seemingly more powerful than Vegetto if his battle with SSJ2 Goku was any indication. Not even the other Kaioshins or Dai Kaioshin could claim to be so powerful since they were all quivering when faced with Kid Buu.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

In other words, Goku in the Cell Games still gets a x50 boost when he becomes a Super Saiyan, and he can still get even stronger by using Super Saiyan Grade 2 & 3.

This doesn't make sense. If he could get stronger with those forms, he would have used them. Grade 2 especially has no noticeable drawbacks. He didn't use them because his mastered Super Saiyan state was stronger.

Freeza's Full Power form is the same thing as SSG2, and look what happened in his fight with Goku. He started fighting on par with SS Goku, and after less than 5 minutes, he couldn't give Goku a challenge to the point that Goku lost interest, making it worst than SS3. We didn't see SSG2 itself having drawbacks because we only saw it in action against a much weaker opponent (2nd Form Cell), and a much stronger opponent (Perfect Cell), we didn't see the form in an even fight. Still, Goku himself said that it drains ki so he will stick to regular SS.

[ekrolo2]

In other words, Goku in the Cell Games still gets a x50 boost when he becomes a Super Saiyan, and he can still get even stronger by using Super Saiyan Grade 2 & 3.

This doesn't make sense. If he could get stronger with those forms, he would have used them. Grade 2 especially has no noticeable drawbacks. He didn't use them because his mastered Super Saiyan state was stronger.

Freeza's Full Power form is the same thing as SSG2, and look what happened in his fight with Goku. He started fighting on par with SS Goku, and after less than 5 minutes, he couldn't give Goku a challenge to the point that Goku lost interest, making it worst than SS3. We didn't see SSG2 itself having drawbacks because we only saw it in action against a much weaker opponent (2nd Form Cell), and a much stronger opponent (Perfect Cell), we didn't see the form in an even fight. Still, Goku himself said that it drains ki so he will stick to regular SS.

A good point though I imagine Goku must've learned how to "upgrade" his power output with SS after mastering it to be more versatile for both increasing strength and suppressing it. One of the factors behind mastering SS1 was him eliminating energy consumption meaning he's got extra power in the tank to bring out if he needs to.

[Bullza]

I like how Zamasu somehow became so much stronger compared with Kaioshin even after having merged with Kibito. Just what kind of training did he undergo to put him so high up the food chain?

Well they did say he was some kind of fighting prodigy. Maybe he is to the other Kaioshin what Vegeta was to the rest of the Saiyans or Nail was compared to the rest of the Namekians.

[Lionel]

The Kaioshins always struck me as being more of a magically oriented sort. East Kaioshin wasn't too strong in the physical sense, but his magic was easily up to par with the current standards during the Babidi arc. Zamasu seems to be more of the outlier in that respect because he's a martial artist instead of a strict Ki user. Does he even have telekinesis?

[TheMikado]

This doesn't make sense. If he could get stronger with those forms, he would have used them. Grade 2 especially has no noticeable drawbacks. He didn't use them because his mastered Super Saiyan state was stronger.

Freeza's Full Power form is the same thing as SSG2, and look what happened in his fight with Goku. He started fighting on par with SS Goku, and after less than 5 minutes, he couldn't give Goku a challenge to the point that Goku lost interest, making it worst than SS3. We didn't see SSG2 itself having drawbacks because we only saw it in action against a much weaker opponent (2nd Form Cell), and a much stronger opponent (Perfect Cell), we didn't see the form in an even fight. Still, Goku himself said that it drains ki so he will stick to regular SS.

A good point though I imagine Goku must've learned how to "upgrade" his power output with SS after mastering it to be more versatile for both increasing strength and suppressing it. One of the factors behind mastering SS1 was him eliminating energy consumption meaning he's got extra power in the tank to bring out if he needs to.

Well yea that exactly what SSJ2 is which is why you typically need to master FSSJ2 first. It just happens that Gohan was the first to get there.

[TheMikado]

In other words, Goku in the Cell Games still gets a x50 boost when he becomes a Super Saiyan, and he can still get even stronger by using Super Saiyan Grade 2 & 3.

This doesn't make sense. If he could get stronger with those forms, he would have used them. Grade 2 especially has no noticeable drawbacks. He didn't use them because his mastered Super Saiyan state was stronger.

This is wrong. It's the same way that athletes train. They train so that their normal state is an "active" state and take no more energy then it would normally. Example training for durance runs means running for long periods at low speed. That doesn't automatically translate to being faster in a sprint. Vice versa. Sprint training doesn't mean you can run a mile faster, in fact the faster sprint in the world. Bolt for instance, claims he's never ran a mile.

[ekrolo2]

Well yea that exactly what SSJ2 is which is why you typically need to master FSSJ2 first. It just happens that Gohan was the first to get there.

I mean he did this somewhat before even getting 2. 2 just opened a whole new reservoir of power for him to tap into he couldn't before. We know they spend energy by activating and keeping SS1 turned on before mastering it, implying this energy they used to lose is available to them to power SS1 up. Not to a massive degree that it could double Goku's power but probably enough to let him put it on par with Grade 2.

[TheMikado]

Well yea that exactly what SSJ2 is which is why you typically need to master FSSJ2 first. It just happens that Gohan was the first to get there.

I mean he did this somewhat before even getting 2. 2 just opened a whole new reservoir of power for him to tap into he couldn't before. We know they spend energy by activating and keeping SS1 turned on before mastering it, implying this energy they used to lose is available to them to power SS1 up. Not to a massive degree that it could double Goku's power but probably enough to let him put it on par with Grade 2.

Yeah I pretty much agree with this. Many people are under the impression that the form in and off itself grants the bonus rather the training aspect which was the entire point.

[dbzfan7]

Have fun guys...have fun .

[Beyond]

Just forget about the anime guys. I mean .... NO NO, I REFUSE.

[Lord Beerus]

Zamasu took on SSJB Goku and held his own. While SSJ Trunks was able to catch SSJ Rose Black off guard and stop Zamasu dead in his track and kick his ass for a bit. Then SSJB Goku and SSJ Future Trunks were able to withstand a Kamehameha from SSJR Black. But it should be noted that Zamasu stated in the previous episode that Black promised him he would finish Goku, so I'm guessing that Kamehameha from Black wasn't meant to kill but to badly damage.

But this episode still has me confused as hell.

[ZombieVito]

I guess the jump from SSJ3 to SSB isn't really that big. It's the only way to make things work.

[Bullza]

See I told you that Trunks was God level.

Trunks was able to stop Black's attack and send him flying into a building and then he was able to keep up with Zamasu and stop his attack. So can we just accept that the regular Super Saiyan forms are just God level?

Future Zamasu appears to be SSJB level which isn't at all surprising. SSJR Black doesn't seem to be THAT superior to Goku which takes me back to the last episode where he said he'd made Goku's power his own. So is SSJR Black just supposed to be as strong as SSJB Goku?

Also if Trunks was able to hold his own to that extent then SSJB can't be that much stronger than SSJ3.

Some people are gonna say this is a mess and what not but this all fits exactly how it should have in my opinion.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm officially resigning to the "everyone is as strong as the plot requires" mentality because this shit is like trying to break down the Da Vinci code with your eyes closed.

[Bansho64]

I'm officially resigning to the "everyone is as strong as the plot requires" mentality because this shit is like trying to break down the Da Vinci code with your eyes closed.

Haha, pretty much how I'm just gonna go with it.

[fexus]

I think the easy explanation is that SSJ Rose was actually not that strong and Vegeta was caught off guard. Goku was already telling Trunks that this isn't opponents that he can handle. Goku was able to handle both Black and Zamasu for a while. Trunks can only somewhat manage with Zamasu. I mean really guys fighting isn't all about powerlevels. If you guys can even argue that Piccolo was actually really weak, this shouldn't even be a problem.