Would Super Saiyan 4 have made Son Goku from the Majin Buu Arc stronger than both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu?

[Perfectionist-Cell]

1. No, because Super Saiyan 4 is not a x10 multiplier. I'm tired of proving this.

2. Maybe, actually there are people who have Gotenks being 500 SSj3 Gokus due to the implications in the original manga.



Nope. Super Saiyan 4 is stated to bring a person to their limits in the GT Perfect Files. Which means Super Saiyan 4 Goku(Boo) is far weaker than Ultimate Gohan, let alone the Boos who are stronger than Ultimate Gohan. I've already said and proven this several times throughout this thread.

Super Saiyan 4 at minimum has to be a 10x multiplier because Golden Oozaru is a 10x multiplier and SSJ4 can't be weaker than Oozaru.

1. Where in the GTPF it is stated that Golden Oozaru is a x10 multiplier? Again, another baseless assumption
2. GT Perfect Files disagrees.

Why are you refusing to take into account all of the points I have made that prove in that Goku from the Majin Buu Saga as a Super Saiyan 4 would defeat any form of Majin Buu?

Because those points are nothing but baseless assumptions which are immeditely debunked by the fact that GT Perfect Files disagrees with them. Is it really that hard to understand the words "GT PERFECT FILES SAYS OTHERWISE?"

Would you mind explaining these GT perfect files?

[Ash57]

Super Saiyan 4 at minimum has to be a 10x multiplier because Golden Oozaru is a 10x multiplier and SSJ4 can't be weaker than Oozaru.

1. Where in the GTPF it is stated that Golden Oozaru is a x10 multiplier? Again, another baseless assumption
2. GT Perfect Files disagrees.

Why are you refusing to take into account all of the points I have made that prove in that Goku from the Majin Buu Saga as a Super Saiyan 4 would defeat any form of Majin Buu?

Because those points are nothing but baseless assumptions which are immeditely debunked by the fact that GT Perfect Files disagrees with them. Is it really that hard to understand the words "GT PERFECT FILES SAYS OTHERWISE?"

Would you mind explaining these GT perfect files?

The GT Perfect Files is a 2-volume guidebook which covers content from Beginning of GT to Shadow Dragons Arc. It was created by the same people who wrote Dragon Ball GT.

[MaxZ]

Ssj1 Gotenks>Goku ssj3?

yes.

Goku is extremely confident that Gotenks will be stronger than his own power at SSJ3. and he is confident of this without knowing they could go past SSJ1. and his confidence is proven accurate, when everyone is totally flabbergasted by Gotenks' power once he fuses properly. even in base everyone was amazed by his power.

as a SSJ1, everyone was totally blown away, and they had all sensed Goku as a SSJ3 already. Gotenks was clearly stronger, even significantly so.

that's why I said 10x SSJ3 Goku is a conservative estimate. it could be far greater even than that. and as for Gohan, he's at least 1.5-2x as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks.

[SH69]

I'm pretty sure SS4 wasn't a 10x multiplier; as in 4000x base... I always thought it was 500x Base; making it 1.25x Super saiyan three. The reason for this being Super Saiyan having a 50x multiplier and Great Ape having a 10x multiplier IIRC. That would put Golden Ozaru and SS4 at 500x; I'm assuming Super Saiyan 4 Goku is just Goku controlling the Golden Ozaru's strength but I don't have any proof for this.
If that's the case, I do think Goku would be ahead of both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu. Not sure about Buuhan though. Not sure I remember everything properly, but I always thought everyone was pretty close in terms of strength during the Super Buu fight. Goku, Gotenks and Buu seemed pretty even. Gohan was quite a lot ahead, but I wouldn't say 1.25x everyone else. A 1.25x multiplier when at that level of strength would provide a huge boost. Heck, a difference of 500 in power levels is enough to shift the odds your way. I would say Gohan was around 1.1x Buu's strength.
So yeah, if Goku did achieve super saiyan 4 in the Buu saga, I personally think he would be the strongest. Correct me if I'm wrong though- I know I'm assuming a lot here.

[TheMikado]

I'm pretty sure SS4 wasn't a 10x multiplier; as in 4000x base... I always thought it was 500x Base; making it 1.25x Super saiyan three. The reason for this being Super Saiyan having a 50x multiplier and Great Ape having a 10x multiplier IIRC. That would put Golden Ozaru and SS4 at 500x; I'm assuming Super Saiyan 4 Goku is just Goku controlling the Golden Ozaru's strength but I don't have any proof for this.
If that's the case, I do think Goku would be ahead of both Ultimate Gohan and Super Buu. Not sure about Buuhan though. Not sure I remember everything properly, but I always thought everyone was pretty close in terms of strength during the Super Buu fight. Goku, Gotenks and Buu seemed pretty even. Gohan was quite a lot ahead, but I wouldn't say 1.25x everyone else. A 1.25x multiplier when at that level of strength would provide a huge boost. Heck, a difference of 500 in power levels is enough to shift the odds your way. I would say Gohan was around 1.1x Buu's strength.
So yeah, if Goku did achieve super saiyan 4 in the Buu saga, I personally think he would be the strongest. Correct me if I'm wrong though- I know I'm assuming a lot here.

Glad I'm not the only one who comes to this logical conclusion.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Ssj1 Gotenks>Goku ssj3?

yes.

Goku is extremely confident that Gotenks will be stronger than his own power at SSJ3. and he is confident of this without knowing they could go past SSJ1. and his confidence is proven accurate, when everyone is totally flabbergasted by Gotenks' power once he fuses properly. even in base everyone was amazed by his power.

as a SSJ1, everyone was totally blown away, and they had all sensed Goku as a SSJ3 already. Gotenks was clearly stronger, even significantly so.

that's why I said 10x SSJ3 Goku is a conservative estimate. it could be far greater even than that. and as for Gohan, he's at least 1.5-2x as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks.

If you're going by character reactions, Piccolo feels that SSJ Gotenks (pre) has no chance against Super Buu but once he sees Base Gotenks (post) he feels Gotenks can win even before he knew Gotenks could transform so according to that even Base Gotenks would be 2-3x above SSJ3 Goku which is nonsense.

[Ash57]

Is it nonsense because it disagrees with your point of view and proves that Gotenks is an absolutely, incredibly powerful guy?

I'm pretty sure SS4 wasn't a 10x multiplier; as in 4000x base... I always thought it was 500x Base; making it 1.25x Super saiyan three. The reason for this being Super Saiyan having a 50x multiplier and Great Ape having a 10x multiplier IIRC. That would put Golden Ozaru and SS4 at 500x

A valid line of reasoning, but still an assumption. Multipliers don't scale linearly. If they did, Super Saiyan 2, who is regarded as a "Super Saiyan which ascended even further" should be 50 times a normal Super Saiyan - but this is obviously not the case. The Golden Oozaru multiplier is unknown, though a person can have it as 500x in their personal head canons.

Also, the Super Saiyan multiplier on GT is not x50, but rather something 2.5x or 3x- because General Rild states that SSJ Goku, who had JUST transformed, hadn't been putting out even half of his power so far(referring to his base form). The Super Saiyan 2 multiplier is also not something special either, because the GT Perfect Files state that hardly anyone on GT bothered using it(though Goku did use it against Rildo once to dodge his attack, that's why they say 'hardly' i guess).

As such, if you combine 2.5x with x10, you would get something like 25x - something hardly impressive. That's why the Golden Oozaru's power boost is largely unknown. Not to mention Golden Oozaru being only 25% above SSJ3 Goku is pure nonsense if you have SSJ4 Goku = Golden Oozaru, because Super Baby Oozaru > SSJ4 Goku > Super Baby 2> Super Baby 1 > Base Baby Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku, which implies a huge distance.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Is it nonsense because it disagrees with your point of view and proves that Gotenks is an absolutely, incredibly powerful guy?

I'm pretty sure SS4 wasn't a 10x multiplier; as in 4000x base... I always thought it was 500x Base; making it 1.25x Super saiyan three. The reason for this being Super Saiyan having a 50x multiplier and Great Ape having a 10x multiplier IIRC. That would put Golden Ozaru and SS4 at 500x

A valid line of reasoning, but still an assumption. Multipliers don't scale linearly. If they did, Super Saiyan 2, who is regarded as a "Super Saiyan which ascended even further" should be 50 times a normal Super Saiyan - but this is obviously not the case. The Golden Oozaru multiplier is unknown, though a person can have it as 500x in their personal head canons.

Also, the Super Saiyan multiplier on GT is not x50, but rather something 2.5x or 3x- because General Rild states that SSJ Goku, who had JUST transformed, hadn't been putting out even half of his power so far(referring to his base form). The Super Saiyan 2 multiplier is also not something special either, because the GT Perfect Files state that hardly anyone on GT bothered using it(though Goku did use it against Rildo once to dodge his attack, that's why they say 'hardly' i guess).

As such, if you combine 2.5x with x10, you would get something like 25x - something hardly impressive. That's why the Golden Oozaru's power boost is largely unknown. Not to mention Golden Oozaru being only 25% above SSJ3 Goku is pure nonsense if you have SSJ4 Goku = Golden Oozaru, because Super Baby Oozaru > SSJ4 Goku > Super Baby 2> Super Baby 1 > Base Baby Vegeta > SSJ3 Goku, which implies a huge distance.

It's nonsense because it would mean Super Buu is over 1,000x as strong as Kid Buu.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Actually, going by character reactions Base Gotenks' power is even more absurd. They think Base Gotenks (pre) has a chance against Buu despite knowing Vegeta got killed, so Gotenks is probably 2x SSJ2 or 1/2 SSJ3, and his SSJ would be 25x SSJ3 Goku. Now, Piccolo feels his SSJ is no match for Super Buu, but after seeing his Base Post RoSAT he thinks he stands a chance, so Base Gotenks (post) would be 2x his SSJ or 50x SSJ3 Goku and his SSJ3 would be 20,000x SSJ3 Goku, which is totally ridiculous and nonsensical, the very idea of Gotenks getting 100x stronger with 2 weeks of training is totally insane.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

Ssj1 Gotenks>Goku ssj3?

yes.

Goku is extremely confident that Gotenks will be stronger than his own power at SSJ3. and he is confident of this without knowing they could go past SSJ1. and his confidence is proven accurate, when everyone is totally flabbergasted by Gotenks' power once he fuses properly. even in base everyone was amazed by his power.

as a SSJ1, everyone was totally blown away, and they had all sensed Goku as a SSJ3 already. Gotenks was clearly stronger, even significantly so.

that's why I said 10x SSJ3 Goku is a conservative estimate. it could be far greater even than that. and as for Gohan, he's at least 1.5-2x as strong as SSJ3 Gotenks.

If you're going by character reactions, Piccolo feels that SSJ Gotenks (pre) has no chance against Super Buu but once he sees Base Gotenks (post) he feels Gotenks can win even before he knew Gotenks could transform so according to that even Base Gotenks would be 2-3x above SSJ3 Goku which is nonsense.

Then when fought super buu in base all that reaction piccolo had changed.

Ssj3 Goku has never fought Super Buu, i find it funny how Goku says he will lose without even trying to fight him. Yet he was told not to fight Beerus nor Frieza and he went ahead like the fool he his anyway. Also they would rather let Gero make his androids and do half ass training thinking they can beat him (Which they did due to Goku's BS judgment)

Goku's judgment is not something to rely on. He can be wrong and somehow still be right. I would contradict myself if i say this but in the anime Supreme Kai asked Goku if Gotenks ssj3 is stronger than him and all he says is "Well i can do it too" and then goes straight back to complimenting them. I would say this but then i contradict myself.

[Ash57]

Actually, going by character reactions Base Gotenks' power is even more absurd. They think Base Gotenks (pre) has a chance against Buu despite knowing Vegeta got killed, so Gotenks is probably 2x SSJ2 or 1/2 SSJ3, and his SSJ would be 25x SSJ3 Goku. Now, Piccolo feels his SSJ is no match for Super Buu, but after seeing his Base Post RoSAT he thinks he stands a chance, so Base Gotenks (post) would be 2x his SSJ or 50x SSJ3 Goku and his SSJ3 would be 20,000x SSJ3 Goku, which is totally ridiculous and nonsensical, the very idea of Gotenks getting 100x stronger with 2 weeks of training is totally insane.

The only ones who thought Base Gotenks Pre stood a chance were Yamcha and Krillin. And their ki sensing in the Boo Saga is proven to be faulty, since they didn't sense Super Boo's ki increasing even though EVERYONE in the Kaioshin Realm sensed it, and they were lightyears away.

And Gotenks getting 100x stronger is pretty crazy, but such huge power gains are not a new concept in the series(cough cough Android Saga Piccolo >> Yardrat Goku cough cough). Not to mention we're talking about the fusion of two prodigies here.

Goku's judgment is not something to rely on. He can be wrong and somehow still be right. I would contradict myself if i say this but in the anime Supreme Kai asked Goku if Gotenks ssj3 is stronger than him and all he says is "Well i can do it too" and then goes straight back to complimenting them. I would say this but then i contradict myself.

Anime, aka. non canon.

[Steven Bloodriver]

1. No, because Super Saiyan 4 is not a x10 multiplier. I'm tired of proving this.

2. Maybe, actually there are people who have Gotenks being 500 SSj3 Gokus due to the implications in the original manga.



Nope. Super Saiyan 4 is stated to bring a person to their limits in the GT Perfect Files. Which means Super Saiyan 4 Goku(Boo) is far weaker than Ultimate Gohan, let alone the Boos who are stronger than Ultimate Gohan. I've already said and proven this several times throughout this thread.

Super Saiyan 4 at minimum has to be a 10x multiplier because Golden Oozaru is a 10x multiplier and SSJ4 can't be weaker than Oozaru.

1. Where in the GTPF it is stated that Golden Oozaru is a x10 multiplier? Again, another baseless assumption
2. GT Perfect Files disagrees.

Why are you refusing to take into account all of the points I have made that prove in that Goku from the Majin Buu Saga as a Super Saiyan 4 would defeat any form of Majin Buu?

Because those points are nothing but baseless assumptions which are immeditely debunked by the fact that GT Perfect Files disagrees with them. Is it really that hard to understand the words "GT PERFECT FILES SAYS OTHERWISE?"

I see that I am dealing with a Troll here...

Look, Ash57, as well as to any others who would say otherwise, stop ignoring the valid points I have been making of Goku being able to overpower any form of Majin Buu by going beyond Super Saiyan 3 with the help of the much more powerful Super Saiyan 4 transformation by snipping out only parts you try to use as evidence to go against everything I have already replied with that prove otherwise. I also think you should know that trying to twist my own words against me won't work on me like how you have had already tried in the post I had applied the bold font on to show as further evidence. So I would suggest that you are to stop right now at this moment with this pointless argument you are trying to make yourself look good against me with.

P. S. For further and additional proof of Ash57 actually doing all this and more, including his outright skimming and skipping over my solid-based facts of the matter of which we were discussing, please go to the pages of 1 through 4 of this thread to see him and all his Trolling.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Actually, going by character reactions Base Gotenks' power is even more absurd. They think Base Gotenks (pre) has a chance against Buu despite knowing Vegeta got killed, so Gotenks is probably 2x SSJ2 or 1/2 SSJ3, and his SSJ would be 25x SSJ3 Goku. Now, Piccolo feels his SSJ is no match for Super Buu, but after seeing his Base Post RoSAT he thinks he stands a chance, so Base Gotenks (post) would be 2x his SSJ or 50x SSJ3 Goku and his SSJ3 would be 20,000x SSJ3 Goku, which is totally ridiculous and nonsensical, the very idea of Gotenks getting 100x stronger with 2 weeks of training is totally insane.

The only ones who thought Base Gotenks Pre stood a chance were Yamcha and Krillin. And their ki sensing in the Boo Saga is proven to be faulty, since they didn't sense Super Boo's ki increasing even though EVERYONE in the Kaioshin Realm sensed it, and they were lightyears away.

And Gotenks getting 100x stronger is pretty crazy, but such huge power gains are not a new concept in the series(cough cough Android Saga Piccolo >> Yardrat Goku cough cough). Not to mention we're talking about the fusion of two prodigies here.

Goku's judgment is not something to rely on. He can be wrong and somehow still be right. I would contradict myself if i say this but in the anime Supreme Kai asked Goku if Gotenks ssj3 is stronger than him and all he says is "Well i can do it too" and then goes straight back to complimenting them. I would say this but then i contradict myself.

Anime, aka. non canon.

Even so, there is no reason Buu should become 1,000x weaker from having Good Buu removed. It's far more reasonable to assume Gotenks (post) wasn't as strong as they thought.

[Ash57]

@Steven Bloodriver Three words for you sir; GT Perfect Files. Your points are not higher than what GTPF tells us. Actually, i have an idea. Copy and paste all for your points here, and i'll debunk all of them to end this nonsense. How does that sound?
@TheUltimateNinja i agree that it is kinda ridiculous, that's why i try to diminish the SSj multiplier for Vegetto, Gotenks and etc.

[Steven Bloodriver]

@Steven-Bloodriver Three words for you sir; GT Perfect Files
@TheUltimateNinja i agree that it is kinda ridiculous, that's why i try to diminish the SSj multiplier for Vegetto, Gotenks and etc.

The Dragon Ball GT: Perfect Files CANNOT be used as your own personal scapegoat, Ash57!

For they are like ANY other guidebook of the Dragon Ball metaseries...in that they both support and contradict what is both said and shown in the anime and manga! Not to mention, they do the exact same thing that you do in Trolling the Hell out of people with both vague and elusive statements!

[dragonballer]

He's a pacifist who from the time he was little has dreamed of becoming a scholar, rather than fighting. Because he is half Saiyan and half Earthling, his latent power is above average, but since he doesn't like voluntarily fighting or training, it was essential that he be trained by Piccolo and his father Goku. He potentially has wondrous power greater than Goku

Daizenshuu 2 states Gohan potentially has power greater than Goku's. The "potentially" means Gohan's potential is above Goku's. Therefore;
Gohan's Potential > Goku's Potential

how is the potencial thing supposed to work? so,gt goku trained to have more potencial?

[Ash57]

@Steven-Bloodriver Three words for you sir; GT Perfect Files
@TheUltimateNinja i agree that it is kinda ridiculous, that's why i try to diminish the SSj multiplier for Vegetto, Gotenks and etc.

The Dragon Ball GT: Perfect Files CANNOT be used as your own personal scapegoat, Ash57!

For they are like ANY other guidebook of the Dragon Ball metaseries...in that they both support and contradict what is both said and shown in the anime and manga! Not to mention, they do the exact same thing that you do in Trolling the Hell out of people with both vague and elusive statements!

It is not a scapegoat. GT Perfect Files was written by the same godammit people who wrote GT, which means GT Perfect Files's words actually override even what GT tells us. Is it that hard to understand that you're WRONG because GT Perfect Files says you're wrong? Just Get. Over. It. already. What you're doing right now is the same as disregarding Toriyama about Z.

Analogy ->
Toriyama: "Gotenks is stronger than the Majin Boo he fought when he was using Super Saiyan 3"
Fan: *proceeds to make up a lot of bs which is debunked by what Toriyama tells us"

This is essentially what you're doing right now.

how is the potencial thing supposed to work? so,gt goku trained to have more potencial?

Probably yes. It happened before.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

Actually, going by character reactions Base Gotenks' power is even more absurd. They think Base Gotenks (pre) has a chance against Buu despite knowing Vegeta got killed, so Gotenks is probably 2x SSJ2 or 1/2 SSJ3, and his SSJ would be 25x SSJ3 Goku. Now, Piccolo feels his SSJ is no match for Super Buu, but after seeing his Base Post RoSAT he thinks he stands a chance, so Base Gotenks (post) would be 2x his SSJ or 50x SSJ3 Goku and his SSJ3 would be 20,000x SSJ3 Goku, which is totally ridiculous and nonsensical, the very idea of Gotenks getting 100x stronger with 2 weeks of training is totally insane.

The only ones who thought Base Gotenks Pre stood a chance were Yamcha and Krillin. And their ki sensing in the Boo Saga is proven to be faulty, since they didn't sense Super Boo's ki increasing even though EVERYONE in the Kaioshin Realm sensed it, and they were lightyears away.

And Gotenks getting 100x stronger is pretty crazy, but such huge power gains are not a new concept in the series(cough cough Android Saga Piccolo >> Yardrat Goku cough cough). Not to mention we're talking about the fusion of two prodigies here.

Goku's judgment is not something to rely on. He can be wrong and somehow still be right. I would contradict myself if i say this but in the anime Supreme Kai asked Goku if Gotenks ssj3 is stronger than him and all he says is "Well i can do it too" and then goes straight back to complimenting them. I would say this but then i contradict myself.

Anime, aka. non canon.

[Perfectionist-Cell]

Actually, going by character reactions Base Gotenks' power is even more absurd. They think Base Gotenks (pre) has a chance against Buu despite knowing Vegeta got killed, so Gotenks is probably 2x SSJ2 or 1/2 SSJ3, and his SSJ would be 25x SSJ3 Goku. Now, Piccolo feels his SSJ is no match for Super Buu, but after seeing his Base Post RoSAT he thinks he stands a chance, so Base Gotenks (post) would be 2x his SSJ or 50x SSJ3 Goku and his SSJ3 would be 20,000x SSJ3 Goku, which is totally ridiculous and nonsensical, the very idea of Gotenks getting 100x stronger with 2 weeks of training is totally insane.

The only ones who thought Base Gotenks Pre stood a chance were Yamcha and Krillin. And their ki sensing in the Boo Saga is proven to be faulty, since they didn't sense Super Boo's ki increasing even though EVERYONE in the Kaioshin Realm sensed it, and they were lightyears away.

And Gotenks getting 100x stronger is pretty crazy, but such huge power gains are not a new concept in the series(cough cough Android Saga Piccolo >> Yardrat Goku cough cough). Not to mention we're talking about the fusion of two prodigies here.

Goku's judgment is not something to rely on. He can be wrong and somehow still be right. I would contradict myself if i say this but in the anime Supreme Kai asked Goku if Gotenks ssj3 is stronger than him and all he says is "Well i can do it too" and then goes straight back to complimenting them. I would say this but then i contradict myself.

Anime, aka. non canon.

Oops my mistake. I pressed submit by mistake

But anyway i like how you only pick one part of my arguement to support yourself even though i said it contradicted myself.

[kinisking]

The GT Perfect Files put SS4 Goku's power around Vegetto's, so probably.

No, it doesn't at all. This is a fan-made myth. What actually said SSJ4 Goku's power was around Vegetto's was a Chinese Hero Fan Comics, which i don't think shouldn't be taken as reliable since Super Baby Vegeta 1 is implied to be > Vegetto on GT

Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.

This comment is great! Can I have it as my sig?