Tenshinhan an alien?

[Big Momma]

Tien is not an alien! I know how he got his third eye!
Anyone read Kakashi Gaiden?....That's how he got the eye. He ripped it out of Commander Red! That's why CR has that eyepatch!

[tainted saiyan]

God, doesn't society know that Polluting lake water is wrong? Tenshinhan a victim of pollution, a freak. Or it's just some Dragonball hooey.

[The Time Traveller]

What about his lil sidekick Pinochio there? Surely he too is an alien.

[Ashuros S]

I must admit I quite surprised about this, I remember the scooter in legacy of goku 2 or buu's fury said that tien gained his third eye from meditation, though now that I think about it, it was a game so its most likely false information.

[Dayspring]

You're assuming things. Ginyu was fighting hard because he was losing. As we've seen basically every other villian do when backed into a corner.

No I'm not! The evidence is in the manga itself. The same thing happened with Nappa a million times. PL domination got thrown out the window at this stage: the same Krillin we're talking about now was even able to cut off Freeza's tail!

It's not like the fight between Ginyu and Krillin lasted very long anyway; he just had to last long enough for Gohan, who was about 10 meters away, to catch up to them. By the time Jeece dies after that, which must have been less than 20 seconds later, we see Gohan has Ginyu by the wrist. Seriously, under ALL these circumstances, even if I am reading too much into the comment that Goku made and into the psychotic look in Ginyu's eyes (and massive vein in his head. ), it's not that unlikely that someone as strong as Krillin be able to hold out as long as he did.

[The Time Traveller]

The Season 1 booklet says "Decendant of the Three eyed people" and also for Kame-sennin's dreams "[censored] the pretty girls" or something like that.

[Mr.Piccolo]

The Season 1 booklet says "Decendant of the Three eyed people" and also for Kame-sennin's dreams "[censored] the pretty girls" or something like that.

Yeah, that booklet is law. Anyway, there's a guy running around with no nose and he's human so what makes a third eye so weird (yeah that'll only sound normal when talking about anime of course).

And about the daizenshuu, remember that omega, super dome thread I made called "The Validity of the Daizenshuu" lets not start that over again. Those damn books are usually brought up for the sake of arguments and nerdy rants alike. Toriyama didn't actually make them but he didn't acutally do the whole anime and movies but people still use those as sources. Just follow what I say, it'd make things much easier..

[kinoko]

God, doesn't society know that Polluting lake water is wrong? Tenshinhan a victim of pollution, a freak. Or it's just some Dragonball hooey.

I just had a sudden vision of "The Secret World of Alex Mack" because of you. XD

I'd totally buy the pollution thing way over the alien thing. It was Toriyama's public service announcement and act as an environmentalist.

[Lavender Saiyan]

You're assuming things. Ginyu was fighting hard because he was losing. As we've seen basically every other villian do when backed into a corner.

No I'm not! The evidence is in the manga itself. The same thing happened with Nappa a million times. PL domination got thrown out the window at this stage: the same Krillin we're talking about now was even able to cut off Freeza's tail!

It's not like the fight between Ginyu and Krillin lasted very long anyway; he just had to last long enough for Gohan, who was about 10 meters away, to catch up to them. By the time Jeece dies after that, which must have been less than 20 seconds later, we see Gohan has Ginyu by the wrist. Seriously, under ALL these circumstances, even if I am reading too much into the comment that Goku made and into the psychotic look in Ginyu's eyes (and massive vein in his head. ), it's not that unlikely that someone as strong as Krillin be able to hold out as long as he did.

I don't see it that way. When Krillin hit him at first, Krillin's reaction was "Goku was right, we can win this" or something to that extent. Krillin had this smirk on his face during their fight while Ginyu got dirtied up. Gohan easily repells his Ki attacks. Ginyu's attacks are easily dodgeable by Krillin. I don't see how you can not believe this.

[Xyex]

You're assuming things. Ginyu was fighting hard because he was losing. As we've seen basically every other villian do when backed into a corner.

No I'm not! The evidence is in the manga itself. The same thing happened with Nappa a million times. PL domination got thrown out the window at this stage: the same Krillin we're talking about now was even able to cut off Freeza's tail!

It's not like the fight between Ginyu and Krillin lasted very long anyway; he just had to last long enough for Gohan, who was about 10 meters away, to catch up to them. By the time Jeece dies after that, which must have been less than 20 seconds later, we see Gohan has Ginyu by the wrist. Seriously, under ALL these circumstances, even if I am reading too much into the comment that Goku made and into the psychotic look in Ginyu's eyes (and massive vein in his head. ), it's not that unlikely that someone as strong as Krillin be able to hold out as long as he did.

I don't see it that way. When Krillin hit him at first, Krillin's reaction was "Goku was right, we can win this" or something to that extent. Krillin had this smirk on his face during their fight while Ginyu got dirtied up. Gohan easily repells his Ki attacks. Ginyu's attacks are easily dodgeable by Krillin. I don't see how you can not believe this.

Ok, I'm confused. You just said basicly the same thing Dayspring said but are acting like you're on opposite sides of opinion.... wha?

[Lavender Saiyan]

What we're debating is what Krillin's Power Level was when fighting Ginyu in Goku's body. Over 23,000 or something similar to what the Daizenshuu says.

[Dayspring]

You're assuming things. Ginyu was fighting hard because he was losing. As we've seen basically every other villian do when backed into a corner.

No I'm not! The evidence is in the manga itself. The same thing happened with Nappa a million times. PL domination got thrown out the window at this stage: the same Krillin we're talking about now was even able to cut off Freeza's tail!

It's not like the fight between Ginyu and Krillin lasted very long anyway; he just had to last long enough for Gohan, who was about 10 meters away, to catch up to them. By the time Jeece dies after that, which must have been less than 20 seconds later, we see Gohan has Ginyu by the wrist. Seriously, under ALL these circumstances, even if I am reading too much into the comment that Goku made and into the psychotic look in Ginyu's eyes (and massive vein in his head. ), it's not that unlikely that someone as strong as Krillin be able to hold out as long as he did.

I don't see it that way. When Krillin hit him at first, Krillin's reaction was "Goku was right, we can win this" or something to that extent. Krillin had this smirk on his face during their fight while Ginyu got dirtied up. Gohan easily repells his Ki attacks. Ginyu's attacks are easily dodgeable by Krillin. I don't see how you can not believe this.

They weren't all easily dodgeable; Krillin was blocking them all except that first one. There's a difference since it points out that Ginyu was stronger, especially since the one counter-punch Krillin throws got dodged by Ginyu. Plus you're ignoring the important element that Ginyu can't control Goku's body very well. If 23,000 is his absolute max, it's very plausible that it's been steadily dropping bit by bit. Then he launches a massive energy attack (by his standards) against Gohan, so there's a massive drop in PL. It's after this big drop that he fights Krillin for all of one-to-two seconds. Really, is 13,000 still so unbelievable?

[Tyro]

Manga standpoint:

Ginyu powers up to 23,000, questions why his new body isn't reaching a 180,000 power level, gets knocked in the back by Kuririn. Kuririn mentions afterward that "we can win this...!!" If the differences in their power levels was really 10,000, there'd be no way Kuririn would even think such a thing.

In the next volume it's easy to see Ginyu has been knocked around a bit by the blood on his face and sweat constantly coming out of him. He shoots a ki blast (don't know if I'd exactly call it 'massive', Dayspring) at Gohan and it hits Gohan directly, although he is shielding himself with his arms, to which he replies "You thought that piddly attack would hurt me?!!" Whether Ginyu was still at the 23,000 power level or not is debatable. I believe he was, because nothing is there to prove different.

Kuririn also comes in and insults Ginyu to his face. Ginyu turns around to try and lay a punch to Kuririn, but he dodges. The rest of the fight seems to be on par between Ginyu and Kuririn. We see them going at it with no absolute winner in the end because of Vegeta.

What I was saying before about the 10,000 being too huge thing is, Vegeta (24,000) was able to bat Kiwi away like nothing (supposedly "barely 18,000"). That's only a 1.33 difference. And between Kuririn (13,000 or whatever the Daizenshuu lists) and Ginyu (23,000), that's a 1.76 difference. Ginyu would have way more than an advantage.

All in all, I believe both Kuririn and Gohan had reached the 20,000s in power. Around 23,00 for Kuririn, more for Gohan.

[Godo]

Manga standpoint:

Ginyu powers up to 23,000, questions why his new body isn't reaching a 180,000 power level, gets knocked in the back by Kuririn. Kuririn mentions afterward that "we can win this...!!" If the differences in their power levels was really 10,000, there'd be no way Kuririn would even think such a thing.

In the next volume it's easy to see Ginyu has been knocked around a bit by the blood on his face and sweat constantly coming out of him. He shoots a ki blast (don't know if I'd exactly call it 'massive', Dayspring) at Gohan and it hits Gohan directly, although he is shielding himself with his arms, to which he replies "You thought that piddly attack would hurt me?!!" Whether Ginyu was still at the 23,000 power level or not is debatable. I believe he was, because nothing is there to prove different.

Kuririn also comes in and insults Ginyu to his face. Ginyu turns around to try and lay a punch to Kuririn, but he dodges. The rest of the fight seems to be on par between Ginyu and Kuririn. We see them going at it with no absolute winner in the end because of Vegeta.

What I was saying before about the 10,000 being too huge thing is, Vegeta (24,000) was able to bat Kiwi away like nothing (supposedly "barely 18,000"). That's only a 1.33 difference. And between Kuririn (13,000 or whatever the Daizenshuu lists) and Ginyu (23,000), that's a 1.76 difference. Ginyu would have way more than an advantage.

All in all, I believe both Kuririn and Gohan had reached the 20,000s in power. Around 23,00 for Kuririn, more for Gohan.

That's exactly what I have thought too. I also thought of that all these intense battles had helped them to improve in power a lot. Many times in DBZ it is shown that a stronger opponent makes you improve a lot more than a weaker. I believe Gohan improved so much under the ROSAT mostly because of that Goku was more experienced and stronger, which made Gohan to give Goku all he got. (Just an example).

[Big Momma]

Tien was obviously the saiyan that was supposed to be sent to earth, not Goku. Goku was just some freak with a tail(Hey, there are humans with tails!), Tien was the real alien. When goku fell of the cliff, he thought it was Grandpa Gohan punishing him, that's why he behaved. When Goku fell, he just happened to land on Tiens head...as Tien was leaving his space container.

It all makes sense now!

[Lavender Saiyan]

Really, is 13,000 still so unbelievable?

Sorry to take this one line out of your whole post. But when you actually compare Power Levels. 24,000 Vegeta easily took out Dodoria who is estimated to be at 21,000. A mere 3,000 difference gave Vegeta a huge advantage. So if Ginyu were to have a 10,000 Advantage, there's no way Krillin would be any match for him. As for Ginyu's power going down, there's no real plausable canon evidence of that.

[Humpski]

I chock it up to: It's a cartoon from a man who probably writes an issue and then forgets about it.

[Dayspring]

Really, is 13,000 still so unbelievable?

Sorry to take this one line out of your whole post. But when you actually compare Power Levels. 24,000 Vegeta easily took out Dodoria who is estimated to be at 21,000. A mere 3,000 difference gave Vegeta a huge advantage. So if Ginyu were to have a 10,000 Advantage, there's no way Krillin would be any match for him. As for Ginyu's power going down, there's no real plausable canon evidence of that.

What do you mean "no real plausible canon evidence?" It's always been self-evident throughout the entire series; using energy results in loosing energy (until you rest to recover it), no matter what the amount.

I say Ginyu used a "massive" energy blast against Gohan because of A) the stress he put into throwing it and B) relatively-it's big only from what he can muster.

You're also all ignoring the most important reason the daizenshuu gave Krillin a listing of only 13,000: it's Toriyama's fault. 13,000 is a number to explain Krillin's PL of "over 10,000" against the Ginyu force, not Ginyu. Anything above 15,000 would have been stated "over 15,000" or "almost 20,000." After the fight, I agree that Gohan gets a massive PL boost that sends him way over 23,000, but Krillin's human so he wouldn't. Even if he got combat experience, despite doing very little against Guldo and even less against Recoom, Krillin wouldn't go up by the thousands.

23,000 looks like it was used as an arbitrary number since it just had to be "bigger than Krillin's but not enough to kill him instantly if he had Gohan fighting with him" and "waaaaaaaaay lower than 180,000."

Am I saying the daizenshuu is flawless? Hell no. I can probably list more of its mistakes than you can. Do I think it can be used as a source of supplimental information, which is its role? Yes, I think it did a fantastic job considering what it had to work with. Toriyama wasn't one to put attention to every minute detail, let alone to the level of scrutiny we put it under.

Back to the original topic at hand, it would seem Shiyoken is a sort of transformation of the Three-Eyes. Screw the fact THAT HE HAS THREE FRAKIN' EYES, Tenshinhan is actually an alien simply because of one of his martial arts abilities! **Closes daizenshuu before becoming the target of another onslaught from daizenshuu haters**

[Duo]

Before he starts fighting Freeza, Vegeta points out that "those brats" power levels keep increasing. As in...both of them? Perhaps there is more to the Great Elders power release than we thought.

[Godo]

Speaking of the Daizenshuu, the only reason I don't take it as a fact is just because fiction is made for the reader to be able to make up his own world, so making a Daizenshuu makes it less possible for the reader to get his own view of the story.
I don't hate it, it's just that for me it isn´t nessecary because of that I like to have a view of my own of the story. As an example, I think that Tenshinhan is human because of that for me he has been it all the time. In the story it is never stated, so everything that goes outside the story is irrelevant.
Then if Toriyama had his own view of his work that is not my business.