Did Toriyama give a reason 17 was excluded from the Buu arc?

precita · Post by **precita** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:01 am

Like after the Cell saga we had 17 completely disappear, and all he got was one brief cameo at the end when Goku was asking for every human to give him energy to defeat Buu. But was there any reason 17 was excluded?

He could have gone with 18 and the others to the tournament when Goku came back for a day, or even had a surprise return mid-saga like Tenshihan did, but he was completely excluded. Was there any reason Toriyama didn't do anything with him?

sintzu · Post by **sintzu** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:42 am

Not that I know of but maybe he forgot about him like Launch.

Ki Breaker · Post by **Ki Breaker** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:46 pm

No reason given..
Most likely he wanted to be away from them for a while for emotional reasons..

Now that he has ranged the park and has a family he is back in the show..
About time

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:16 pm

I don't think there was a specific reason noted, but the Buu arc as a whole was an almost reboot of the core cast anyway, so it's not that surprising. Gohan's older, Goku's dead, Tenshinhan and Chaotzu are both out of the main cast, Futrure Trunks went to his own time but now we have a young Trunks and Goten.

More than anything, I'd suspect the reason 17 isn't in the Buu arc (except at the very end lending Ki) is the same reason for a lot of these other changes; the Majin Buu story feels like it was meant to be a restructuring of the status quo that had been around since the start of Z, but particularly since the Freeza arc.

Lord Beerus · Post by **Lord Beerus** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:46 pm

Nope. To Toriyama, 17 was a plot device created on the fly to further develop another villain. He served his purpose to be Cell's lunch and once that happened, if Toriyama would include 17 again, it would most likely be in a small cameo, because he can't really integrate into the cast as he has no-one to really bounce off of, in terms of chemistry.

ekrolo2 · Post by **ekrolo2** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 5:52 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Nope. To Toriyama, 17 was a plot device created on the fly to further develop another villain. He served his purpose to be Cell's lunch and once that happened, if Toriyama would include 17 again, it would most likely be in a small cameo, because he can't really integrate into the cast as he has no-one to really bounce off of, in terms of chemistry.

I think he and Piccolo could bounce of each other well. They certainly exchanged some good smack talk in their fight.

kinisking · Post by **kinisking** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:08 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:Nope. To Toriyama, 17 was a plot device created on the fly to further develop another villain. He served his purpose to be Cell's lunch and once that happened, if Toriyama would include 17 again, it would most likely be in a small cameo, because he can't really integrate into the cast as he has no-one to really bounce off of, in terms of chemistry.

Wasn't 17 created to be his own villian but the editor didn't like him? Or is that just a rumour? And 17 could bounce off Krillin, Piccolo, and 18 pretty well.

ChronoTwigger · Post by **ChronoTwigger** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:09 pm

The only rational reason I could find was a Toriyama indepht about 17 aftermaths.
He says 17 have a selfish nature and retired to live in the most isolated place to avoid contacts.
(searching the source,,,)
As for a "plot economy" reason, the answer it's easy: the character didn't appealed enough to get a co-starring role.

Jinzoningen MULE · Post by **Jinzoningen MULE** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:12 pm

kinisking wrote:Wasn't 17 created to be his own villian but the editor didn't like him? Or is that just a rumor? And 17 could bounce off Krillin, Piccolo, and 18 pretty well.

The Android Arc was course-corrected by Toriyama's old editor's input. First, the villains were #19 and #20. REJECTED! Then the focus moved to #17, #18, and sort of #16. REJECTED! Cell is introduced, his goal, of course, to become perfect. If I remember correctly, Toriyama has said that he wanted Cell to play a bigger role in his Imperfect Form, but... well, you get the idea.

kinisking · Post by **kinisking** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 6:20 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
kinisking wrote:Wasn't 17 created to be his own villian but the editor didn't like him? Or is that just a rumor? And 17 could bounce off Krillin, Piccolo, and 18 pretty well.
The Android Arc was course-corrected by Toriyama's old editor's input. First, the villains were #19 and #20. REJECTED! Then the focus moved to #17, #18, and sort of #16. REJECTED! Cell is introduced, his goal, of course, to become perfect. If I remember correctly, Toriyama has said that he wanted Cell to play a bigger role in his Imperfect Form, but... well, you get the idea.

Yeah, I thought so haha. We need an editor to reject some of the ideas he has now.

precita · Post by **precita** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:04 pm

So I wonder what prompted 17's return for the new tournament arc? You think it was Toriyama or the people at Toei who wanted 17 to come back?

Lord Beerus · Post by **Lord Beerus** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:08 pm

kinisking wrote:
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:
kinisking wrote:Wasn't 17 created to be his own villian but the editor didn't like him? Or is that just a rumor? And 17 could bounce off Krillin, Piccolo, and 18 pretty well.
The Android Arc was course-corrected by Toriyama's old editor's input. First, the villains were #19 and #20. REJECTED! Then the focus moved to #17, #18, and sort of #16. REJECTED! Cell is introduced, his goal, of course, to become perfect. If I remember correctly, Toriyama has said that he wanted Cell to play a bigger role in his Imperfect Form, but... well, you get the idea.
Yeah, I thought so haha. We need an editor to reject some of the ideas he has now.

It was actually both Cell's imperfect and semi-perfect form that Toriyama's editor hated and it was the semi-perfect form that Toriyama had more plans for. His editor found both forms ugly and told him to change it as quickly as possible by having Cell transform into something cooler and Perfect Cell was eventually created.

Daizenshuu 2: Story Guide - Shenlong Times — 2nd Issue

Akira Toriyama
You’re terrible to say that, Torishima-san. Right around then was when Artificial Humans No. 19 and No. 20 appeared. You weren’t my editor or anything anymore, but you specifically called me to say, “I thought that the enemies had finally come, but aren’t these just a geezer and a fatso?” (laughs) In truth, I hadn’t had plans for anyone but No. 19 and No. 20 to appear. But there was no helping it, so I brought out No. 17 and No. 18. Then you called me up and said “What, this time it’s just some brats?” So I brought out Cell. (laughs)

Fuyuto Takeda
So you hadn’t planned on Cell appearing at all?

Akira Toriyama
That’s right. I liked No. 19 and No. 20 just fine. And I liked the initial Cell fine as well.

Fuyuto Takeda
The bug-like one?

Akira Toriyama
Yeah, but Kondō-san said, “He looks ugly. Of course, he can transform.”, so I had no choice but to transform him into his second-form.

Yū Kondō
Was that how it was?

Akira Toriyama
And then you were really awful, Kondō-san. “This time, doesn’t he look like a moron? Hurry up and make him into his perfect-form.”, you said.

Yū Kondō
But he really did look like a moron. (laughs)

Akira Toriyama
With second-form Cell as well, I liked him well enough. Actually, I had wanted him to play a more active role. But since I was told he looked stupid, I had no choice but to change him. (laughs) So I made him into his cool-looking perfect-form, which was to Kondō-san’s liking.

Jinzoningen MULE · Post by **Jinzoningen MULE** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:11 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:It was actually both Cell's imperfect and semi-perfect form that Toriyama's editor hated and it was the semi-perfect form that Toriyama had more plans for. His editor found both forms ugly and told him to change it as quickly as possible by having Cell transform into something cooler and Perfect Cell was eventually created.

That's what I meant, just didn't feel like wasting time going into intricate detail. When I say "Imperfect Form", I'm not being hyper-specific, I'm referring to pre-Perfect Cell.

Phonon1 · Post by **Phonon1** » Fri Dec 16, 2016 7:55 pm

Ok, maybe this is a little off-topic, but if you have read Bakuman, you can have a better look on how mangas are made, and I think all this decissions about Cell's transformations, the 19 and 20 issue and all, are good examples of the improvisation needed when polls with readers opinions are made. I really think that if the story would have been focused on 17 and 18, with no Cell appearance at all, 17 could have been a new rival for... for example, Gohan (as Toriyama wanted him to be the main character instead of Goku), so yeah, 17 could have been the Vegeta for Gohan, later becoming a new ally as usual and all that. Just my crazy thoughts xD.

Neo-Makaiōshin · Post by **Neo-Makaiōshin** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 12:37 pm

No he didn´t, he probably forgot about him until the last few chapters of the manga.

simtek34 · Post by **simtek34** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:28 pm

sintzu wrote:Not that I know of but maybe he forgot about him like Launch.

Lunch was gonna come back in the Spirit Bomb bot Toriyama put 17 instead. That's why the dialogue doesn't fit him. But he didn't forget him, he just had no use for him.

precita · Post by **precita** » Sat Dec 17, 2016 2:48 pm

I also wonder why 17 didn't turn up to stop Buu after the human extinction act, same way Tenshihan did. I'm sure 17 was able to dodge the attacks if Tenshihan was able to.

Kanzenshuu

Did Toriyama give a reason 17 was excluded from the Buu arc?

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