Is Toriyama just giving fans what they want?

[Freeza9000]

the Mafuba was pointless

Not entirely since it did instigate the fusion between Black and Zamasu.

[Nano]

The fanservice is real.

People wanted Gohan. Guess what? They got two episodes.

People wanted Broly. People wanted a female super saiyan. Guess what? They get both in one lol.

I want to know how Goku hasn't surpassed Beerus yet when SSG was 70% of his full power. Goku's been fighting and training since they fought. Where's my fanservice dagnabbit lol...

It's sad that getting only two episodes of Gohan is considered fan service now.

It isn't, his definition of fanservice is twisted, that's all

Lol it's not my definition that's twisted it's the creator's. They basically trolled the shit out of Gohan fans. Same with the female super Saiyan and Broly fans too.

[emperior]

the Mafuba was pointless

Not entirely since it did instigate the fusion between Black and Zamasu.

And it was also more useful than it was in the past.

[ekrolo2]

the Mafuba was pointless

Not entirely since it did instigate the fusion between Black and Zamasu.

And it was also more useful than it was in the past.

Didn't need to be the Mafuba, especially since not two episodes after they discard it, Whis reveals he has an even better sealing method. What even is the point of this comment existing- Oh yeah, the Mafuba gets you fanboy points, that's why it's here. It's why probably why the ROSAT keeps getting used even though we've established a much better one existing with Whis. The ROSAT is more classic therefore it should get used, otherwise, dem fanboy points don't get earned.

This franchise is so chicken shit it can't even remove the main characters default suits permanently or the old Super Saiyan forms when got precedent exists for them to go away.

[emperior]

Not entirely since it did instigate the fusion between Black and Zamasu.

And it was also more useful than it was in the past.

Didn't need to be the Mafuba, especially since not two episodes after they discard it, Whis reveals he has an even better sealing method. What even is the point of this comment existing- Oh yeah, the Mafuba gets you fanboy points, that's why it's here. It's why probably why the ROSAT keeps getting used even though we've established a much better one existing with Whis. The ROSAT is more classic therefore it should get used, otherwise, dem fanboy points don't get earned.

This franchise is so chicken shit it can't even remove the main characters default suits permanently or the old Super Saiyan forms when got precedent exists for them to go away.

Can't say I don't agree with you. I still wonder why the hell Toriyama discarded those RoF outfits... Not to mention their old ones look bad with SSB. About the SSJ forms, I don't mind them as they give us more of a clue about others' power level (Zamasu, Future Trunks, U6 guys...)

[HeroR]

Didn't need to be the Mafuba, especially since not two episodes after they discard it, Whis reveals he has an even better sealing method. What even is the point of this comment existing- Oh yeah, the Mafuba gets you fanboy points, that's why it's here. It's why probably why the ROSAT keeps getting used even though we've established a much better one existing with Whis. The ROSAT is more classic therefore it should get used, otherwise, dem fanboy points don't get earned.

This franchise is so chicken shit it can't even remove the main characters default suits permanently or the old Super Saiyan forms when got precedent exists for them to go away.

Whis' staff isn't used because Whis' staff becomes disabled when it is in used like that. He isn't going to disable his own staff for days, plus Whis is usually busy.

Goku and the others also didn't know Whis had a better method, especially since Whis wasn't around when they were discussing it. It exists that shows that the gods usually have a better method for things, just like the Fusion Dance.

[Totamo]

Not entirely since it did instigate the fusion between Black and Zamasu.

And it was also more useful than it was in the past.

Didn't need to be the Mafuba, especially since not two episodes after they discard it, Whis reveals he has an even better sealing method. What even is the point of this comment existing- Oh yeah, the Mafuba gets you fanboy points, that's why it's here. It's why probably why the ROSAT keeps getting used even though we've established a much better one existing with Whis. The ROSAT is more classic therefore it should get used, otherwise, dem fanboy points don't get earned.

This franchise is so chicken shit it can't even remove the main characters default suits permanently or the old Super Saiyan forms when got precedent exists for them to go away.

Wait, what? Toriyama is known for throwing things away when he is done with them, in fact this fanbase has criticized him for that. Now you are calling a coward for keeping some of them.

I mean what the hell, the dragon ball fanbase is so freaking fickle, I'm not surprise the man trolls us all the time.

[Jaetinh]

I will never forgive Toriyama for excluding Yamcha from the U7 team! If it was Future Trunks who was in the team instead, fine. But Roshi? Fuck no, I'm still pissed about it.

[ekrolo2]

Wait, what? Toriyama is known for throwing things away when he is done with them, in fact this fanbase has criticized him for that. Now you are calling a coward for keeping some of them.

I mean what the hell, the dragon ball fanbase is so freaking fickle, I'm not surprise the man trolls us all the time.

I'd say redundancy is his issue more often than not, mostly when it comes to characters, like how Yajirobe is a cowardly dude who doesn't want to get involved in the BS the rest of the cast enjoy which is.... basically who Oolong is so why the hell is Yajirobe even a thing?

The thing with the Mafuba and the ROSAT is that the story sets up alternatives for it that both come from Whis and are factually a lot better than the old stuff. The ROSAT is particularly baffling because they explicitly talk about how it isn't worth much anymore, proceed to use it, barely get stronger for the U6 tourney then Vegeta surpasses Goku AND Black by training in it for six months when 3 years of fighting Goku there didn't give him much power. After we've established an even better ROSAT with Whis where its a struggle just to move and breathe! Why the fuck does the old one even brought up anymore when we've set up a quality replacement for it?!

[Totamo]

I will never forgive Toriyama for excluding Yamcha from the U7 team! If it was Future Trunks who was in the team instead, fine. But Roshi? Fuck no, I'm still pissed about it.

yamcha has a worst fighting than roshi, who may not have power but has more wisdom than every fighter outside of piccolo.

besides ifd he brought yamcha in and he got oneshotted like he undoubtedly will, the fanbase would get pissed.

[Totamo]

Wait, what? Toriyama is known for throwing things away when he is done with them, in fact this fanbase has criticized him for that. Now you are calling a coward for keeping some of them.

I mean what the hell, the dragon ball fanbase is so freaking fickle, I'm not surprise the man trolls us all the time.

I'd say redundancy is his issue more often than not, mostly when it comes to characters, like how Yajirobe is a cowardly dude who doesn't want to get involved in the BS the rest of the cast enjoy which is.... basically who Oolong is so why the hell is Yajirobe even a thing?

The thing with the Mafuba and the ROSAT is that the story sets up alternatives for it that both come from Whis and are factually a lot better than the old stuff. The ROSAT is particularly baffling because they explicitly talk about how it isn't worth much anymore, proceed to use it, barely get stronger for the U6 tourney then Vegeta surpasses Goku AND Black by training in it for six months when 3 years of fighting Goku there didn't give him much power. After we've established an even better ROSAT with Whis where its a struggle just to move and breathe! Why the fuck does the old one even brought up anymore when we've set up a quality replacement for it?!

Because Yajorobe is stronger? Did you not watch the piccolo daimao saga when he killed a mutated namekian , can oolong do that or when he cut off vegeta's tail,

And whis getting involved will piss of fans even more for having the gods get involved, which was a big criticism of ressurection f and beerus and whis didn't go to the future.

about the whis' room its simple. Its a toei edition because that isn't mentioned in the manga or the movie.

I just don't understand why when toriyama uses things from the past people get angry, when he doesn't people get angry.

Like why so fickle about a mindless cartoon about martial art aliens.

[ekrolo2]

Because Yajorobe is stronger? Did you not watch the piccolo daimao saga when he killed a mutated namekian , can oolong do that or when he cut off vegeta's tail,

And whis getting involved will piss of fans even more for having the gods get involved, which was a big criticism of ressurection f and beerus and whis didn't go to the future.

about the whis' room its simple. Its a toei edition because that isn't mentioned in the manga or the movie.

I just don't understand why when toriyama uses things from the past people get angry, when he doesn't people get angry.

Like why so fickle about a mindless cartoon about martial art aliens.

Toriyama isn't beholden to someone else' writing, if he wanted to, he could've made the story work just as fine with Oolong in the perpetual role of the dude who bitches and moans about being involved in this crazy martial arts crap. Yajirobe didn't need to exist.

Once again, Toriyama isn't beholden to someone else' writing, he's not a middleman like Toyotaro, want to avoid people bitching about the Gods? Fucking write them out of it entirely, don't do the Black arc thing where Beerus and Whis say they don't give a damn then constantly get involved in stuff anyway because reasons. Show they don't give a damn by having them chill in their temple and not involve themselves with Freeza's resurrection or Black.

Yeah and what about Yamcha's baseball team or the Ginyu frog filler or Gregory or the Potafu arc? Those were all Toei things that show up in story and get referenced or used as plot points, fuck, we have Legendary Super Saiyan in the show! A movie only form and Final Kamehameha, a video game thing creep in, this show clearly doesn't give a fuck about where something comes from, so why's Whis' staff suddenly a big point of contention?

There's a difference between using old stuff smartly and poorly, if Whis never said anything about a better form of sealing, the Mafuba would've been a good way to use old continuity. But when you've got both of them, why not just rewrite Whis into teaching Goku this new move. Why keep going back to the old, worthless ROSAT when we've established a useful one in the staff? Bring back old stuff all you want, just have it make sense is all I ask for.

[Totamo]

Because Yajorobe is stronger? Did you not watch the piccolo daimao saga when he killed a mutated namekian , can oolong do that or when he cut off vegeta's tail,

And whis getting involved will piss of fans even more for having the gods get involved, which was a big criticism of ressurection f and beerus and whis didn't go to the future.

about the whis' room its simple. Its a toei edition because that isn't mentioned in the manga or the movie.

I just don't understand why when toriyama uses things from the past people get angry, when he doesn't people get angry.

Like why so fickle about a mindless cartoon about martial art aliens.

Toriyama isn't beholden to someone else' writing, if he wanted to, he could've made the story work just as fine with Oolong in the perpetual role of the dude who bitches and moans about being involved in this crazy martial arts crap. Yajirobe didn't need to exist.

Once again, Toriyama isn't beholden to someone else' writing, he's not a middleman like Toyotaro, want to avoid people bitching about the Gods? Fucking write them out of it entirely, don't do the Black arc thing where Beerus and Whis say they don't give a damn then constantly get involved in stuff anyway because reasons. Show they don't give a damn by having them chill in their temple and not involve themselves with Freeza's resurrection or Black.

Yeah and what about Yamcha's baseball team or the Ginyu frog filler or Gregory or the Potafu arc? Those were all Toei things that show up in story and get referenced or used as plot points, fuck, we have Legendary Super Saiyan in the show! A movie only form and Final Kamehameha, a video game thing creep in, this show clearly doesn't give a fuck about where something comes from, so why's Whis' staff suddenly a big point of contention?

There's a difference between using old stuff smartly and poorly, if Whis never said anything about a better form of sealing, the Mafuba would've been a good way to use old continuity. But when you've got both of them, why not just rewrite Whis into teaching Goku this new move. Why keep going back to the old, worthless ROSAT when we've established a useful one in the staff? Bring back old stuff all you want, just have it make sense is all I ask for.

No, no he could not. Yajirobe is a fighter and an assitant of korin and oolong is a talking pig who can only stay in a form for 5 minutes. One of those things are more useful than the other, one of thos things are stronger than the other.Now if that namekian had been killed by that pig in the same way yajirobe did it, you would have been ok with that?

Beerus and whis got involved in the black arc? They only did one thing in that arc and that was to save their own asses and we already have trunks' future where they didn't do a thing and where they never got involved there once, which resulted in their deaths. They saved their own timeline. Thats why they didn't go back in time. Now if they couldn't go back in time, how could whis seal him? Oh right he could have taught it to Goku, who was just told we aren't getting involved and left while Goku was healing and they didn't learn about the seal until they already used it.

Plus it would have been contrived as hell if whis just taught him that, a move that had no build up or history.

Referenced vs being used are 2 different things and you are complaining about the latter. The plot points used with those concepts had no bearing on the plot whatsoever. Thats not what you are saying, you want that staff to be used and have an actual point, something that has only happened with the kaioken oh wiat, the scale! the power scale must be persevered, despite the fact that power isn't the only thing that matters in a fight and Hit and botamo proved that with their techniques, but the scale!

Final Kamehameha had zero bearing on the plot and was simply used for fanservice which is what fanservice is. things included that have no point but please fans.

Honestly, i am suspicious about vegito not being fanservice but i could be wrong.

And we both don't even know what that form in that show is as the legendary super saiyan wasn't just a form but an actual person. Unless she has the same backstory as broly which I doubt she will, its not the form, but definitely based of it.

Besides i doubt she will have nay bearing on the plot as well.

I agree things can be used smartly and poorly, but that is not what I have noticed with a lot of people, even if its used well and makes sense, people will still insult it and when he doesn't use things from the plot because they don't fit anymore people get angry.

[ekrolo2]

No, no he could not. Yajirobe is a fighter and an assitant of korin and oolong is a talking pig who can only stay in a form for 5 minutes. One of those things are more useful than the other, one of thos things are stronger than the other.Now if that namekian had been killed by that pig in the same way yajirobe did it, you would have been ok with that?

Here's how to make that scene work: don't have the Namekian exist so there's no contrivance, as I already said, Toriyama is the one steering the ship, not a hapless middleman like the Toei staff & Toyotaro are for Super. That whole character is pointless since Tamburine's death is what prompts Piccolo to confront Goku so you might as well cut out Cymbal entirely

Beerus and whis got involved in the black arc? They only did one thing in that arc and that was to save their own asses and we already have trunks' future where they didn't do a thing and where they never got involved there once, which resulted in their deaths. They saved their own timeline. Thats why they didn't go back in time. Now if they couldn't go back in time, how could whis seal him? Oh right he could have taught it to Goku, who was just told we aren't getting involved and left while Goku was healing and they didn't learn about the seal until they already used it. Plus it would have been contrived as hell if whis just taught him that, a move that had no build up or history.

Beerus and Whis constantly got involved, they're the one's who exposite about the Time Ring, take Goku to see Zamasu & Gowasu, hypothesize about Black's identity, kill Zamasu,... When they don't need to: just have fucking Supreme Kai, Kibito and Old Kai do that stuff for them! Have Beerus and Whis leave to their temple, have Goku teleport to the Kai's and have them serve as his deitic aids for the story, Supreme Kai can teleport anywhere so that instantly makes him a better mode of transportation than Whis is and we know Old Kai has experience with sealing, being put into the Z-sword (by Beerus apparently) so there's a good hook to introduce a new sealing method. Beerus and Whis talk a big game about not being involved, but they are, a lot when they don't need to be.

Referenced vs being used are 2 different things and you are complaining about the latter. The plot points used with those concepts had no bearing on the plot whatsoever. Thats not what you are saying, you want that staff to be used and have an actual point, something that has only happened with the kaioken oh wiat, the scale! the power scale must be persevered, despite the fact that power isn't the only thing that matters in a fight and Hit and botamo proved that with their techniques, but the scale!

Hit's power doesn't make him impervious to not dropping dead from getting punched by a guy 10 times stronger than him, especially because said guy is breaking through Hit's power while Botamo's is shown to be a constant thing. Hit's time skip lets him avoid damage and he doesn't have that edge when you're too strong for it or work around it, just like Goku.

The Kaio-Ken isn't stupid just because it fucks the scale, that's the least of its problem, its stupid because they retcon mastered Super Saiyan into being stressful physically and emotionally to retroactively explain why its never appeared before. Its also dumb because you've got the entire Black arc centered around a villain who's designed to steal Goku's moves but never uses the KK, or how Goku himself only uses it after most of his limbs are destroyed but he neve thinks to use it before when his body is under better conditions. Or how doubling his power with it can almost kill him but increasing it by 10 doesn't do jack shit. The KK barely makes sense as is just ignoring the scaling, Toriyama was right to retire it because it makes everything too easy.

Honestly, i am suspicious about vegito not being fanservice but i could be wrong.

Oh he's definitely in the script, if the fucking Mafuba showed up in the manga too, Vegetto will appear.

And we both don't even know what that form in that show is as the legendary super saiyan wasn't just a form but an actual person. Unless she has the same backstory as broly which I doubt she will, its not the form, but definitely based of it.

Besides i doubt she will have nay bearing on the plot as well.

It IS the Legendary Super Saiyan form, they wouldn't make her a blatant copy of Broly in appearance if they weren't purposefully gunning for that whole vibe of hers. Once Broly comes back, what's filler or Toei exclusive means nothing anymore, fuck, I wouldn't be surprised if Super Saiyan 5 or even Superman showed up now, they're about as random as female Broly and that actually exists now.

[SaiyanZ]

Seems like it. Multi-colored Super Saiyans, evil Goku, evil Kaioshin, female Broli and Kaioken combining with Super Saiyan (though that is Toei only) REEK of fanfiction.

[Jaetinh]

I will never forgive Toriyama for excluding Yamcha from the U7 team! If it was Future Trunks who was in the team instead, fine. But Roshi? Fuck no, I'm still pissed about it.

yamcha has a worst fighting than roshi, who may not have power but has more wisdom than every fighter outside of piccolo.

besides ifd he brought yamcha in and he got oneshotted like he undoubtedly will, the fanbase would get pissed.

And Roshi wouldn't get one shotted? Toriyama doesn't give a flying fuck if the fanbase get pissed anyways. Yamcha should had been included, Roshi's time as a Z-fighter should had (and did) ended back at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

[Ki Breaker]

I will never forgive Toriyama for excluding Yamcha from the U7 team! If it was Future Trunks who was in the team instead, fine. But Roshi? Fuck no, I'm still pissed about it.

yamcha has a worst fighting than roshi, who may not have power but has more wisdom than every fighter outside of piccolo.

besides ifd he brought yamcha in and he got oneshotted like he undoubtedly will, the fanbase would get pissed.

And Roshi wouldn't get one shotted? Toriyama doesn't give a flying fuck if the fanbase get pissed anyways. Yamcha should had been included, Roshi's time as a Z-fighter should had (and did) ended back at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

No, roshi wouldn't, has roshi ever been one shotted? He pulls something off always.. that's how he is written , they made it clear in rof saying Yamcha can't handle this..

[SSJ Human]

I don't remember fans wanting only two fighting characters to be the center focus at all times barring an arc so I'd have to say no.

[sintzu]

I don't remember fans wanting only two fighting characters to be the center focus at all times barring an arc so I'd have to say no.

That was the #1 thing I always wanted from a DBZ sequel.

I will never forgive Toriyama for excluding Yamcha from the U7 team! If it was Future Trunks who was in the team instead, fine. But Roshi? Fuck no, I'm still pissed about it.

Roshi won't end up like this the minute he steps into the arena.



He probably won't last long but he'll last longer than Yamcha would.

[SaiyanZ]

Roshi won't end up like this the minute he steps into the arena.



He probably won't last long but he'll last longer than Yamcha would.

Yamcha training with Kami & Kaio made him stronger than Roshi in the end. Wonder if Roshi has been training at all.