Goku Black/Zamasu best villains in Dragon Ball since _____?

[SaiyanZ]

He observed the depravity of the mortals and what chaos they have caused in different kinds of planets and civilizations. Of course, considering he's about to become a Kaioshin, one who regulates and watches over life, he won't stand for mortals continuing to do what they do.

And that is the only conclusion he came to after 1000+ years of watching people. Horrible reason for him to act the way he does.

I have no clue why the fuck this didn't show up in my notifications. But anyways, he's not completely wrong as there are a plethora of mortals, especially in the DB verse, that are prone to chaos and destruction. Other than creatures like Barbarians, there are also races like Saiyans causing mass genocide across the universe and even FUCKING EATING PEOPLE! Not to mention, planets being obliterated and Boo who has caused immense destruction and even managing to kill almost all the Kaioshins. Sure you may argue there's also *some* good, but *some* of that good is overshadowed by the amount of "evil", at least in Zamasu's eyes. We actually have people on this Earth on the belief that humanity is a sin, so why is it hard for you to grasp the villain's motivations? It also doesn't help the fact that almost all the gods are negligent fucktards.

Most life consumes other life to survive, be it animals or plants. There aren't a plethora of mortals that are prone to violence: the Saiyans and various villains we've seen are a microscopic iota of various races strewn across 12 universes. Its not about his motivations being hard to grasp, its about it being fucking garbage reasoning. Yes there is violence among life, but that isn't the only thing people do. To only see that is what people do over 1000 years of watchful observation makes his character a horribly written one. Thus, why I said the justification of his character is shit. Also, people in real life who believe that humanity is a sin need to be checked into mental institutions ASAP, they are not sane people whose opinions matter. The Gods may be ineffective in terms of solving problems, but at least they aren't horribly justified characters or zealous maniacs like Zamasu.

[DBZAOTA482]

Goku Black is the only good thing about Zamasu and he's the best since Majin Boo.

[Freeza9000]

Most life consumes other life to survive, be it animals or plants. There aren't a plethora of mortals that are prone to violence: the Saiyans and various villains we've seen are a microscopic iota of various races strewn across 12 universes. Its not about his motivations being hard to grasp, its about it being fucking garbage reasoning. Yes there is violence among life, but that isn't the only thing people do. To only see that is what people do over 1000 years of watchful observation makes his character a horribly written one. Thus, why I said the justification of his character is shit. Also, people in real life who believe that humanity is a sin need to be checked into mental institutions ASAP, they are not sane people whose opinions matter. The Gods may be ineffective in terms of solving problems, but at least they aren't horribly justified characters or zealous maniacs like Zamasu.

This is more of you disagreeing and arguing against the opinions of a villain, if anything. You don't need to agree with the villain, especially since they tend to be assholes that can't be reasoned with. Of course, violence isn't the only thing to ever come out of humanity, but with Zamasu, that darkness overshadows the amount of light of humanity greatly. Which isn't completely false considering with the latest episode where one mortal's selfishness ends up being the reason why lives are gonna be lost. There are real life people out there that have different takes on humanity and life. Whether it they view life as a blessing or a curse.

[RedShift]

Zamasu is the best set up villain since Freeza IMO. The guy has a plan, executed it, and posed a major threat to our grossly overpowered Goku & Vegeta tag team.

But beyond that, Zamasu is just another annoying hypocritical brat with some seriously backwards logic. He's still below Freeza, Cell, Piccolo, and Vegeta for me.

[SaiyanZ]

This is more of you disagreeing and arguing against the opinions of a villain, if anything. You don't need to agree with the villain, especially since they tend to be assholes that can't be reasoned with. Of course, violence isn't the only thing to ever come out of humanity, but with Zamasu, that darkness overshadows the amount of light of humanity greatly. Which isn't completely false considering with the latest episode where one mortal's selfishness ends up being the reason why lives are gonna be lost. There are real life people out there that have different takes on humanity and life. Whether it they view life as a blessing or a curse.

I disagree with the opinions of Zamasu because it doesn't make sense. If the reason why a person thinks the way they do isn't sensible (NOT in terms of whether its moral or not) and it isn't due to some extreme mental trauma or brain damage, then yes, the writing of the character sucks. There are plenty of villains who I don't agree with, I don't agree with Joker for killing millions of people in the DC universe, I don't agree with any DB villain for killing people, I don't agree with Sensui over his want to kill all of humanity. The difference is, I understand very clearly why they feel that way: Joker and DB villains are assholes, and Sensui was mindfucked by the Chapter Black tape. Zamasu watching people for 1000 years and only coming to the conclusion that they need to be killed is not believable or sensible writing within the context of Dragon Ball. Also it isn't Goku's fault that universes are going to be destroyed, that is Zeno's or whoever else's that instate the rule into the tournament. And yes, people do have differing views on humanity and life. Those that think it is a curse and we all need to die out are people we don't take seriously and we check into mental institutions as fast as we can.

[Freeza9000]

I disagree with the opinions of Zamasu because it doesn't make sense. If the reason why a person thinks the way they do isn't sensible (NOT in terms of whether its moral or not) and it isn't due to some extreme mental trauma or brain damage, then yes, the writing of the character sucks. There are plenty of villains who I don't agree with, I don't agree with Joker for killing millions of people in the DC universe, I don't agree with any DB villain for killing people, I don't agree with Sensui over his want to kill all of humanity. The difference is, I understand very clearly why they feel that way: Joker and DB villains are assholes, and Sensui was mindfucked by the Chapter Black tape. Zamasu watching people for 1000 years and only coming to the conclusion that they need to be killed is not believable or sensible writing within the context of Dragon Ball. And yes, people do have differing views on humanity and life. Those that think it is a curse and we all need to die out are people we don't take seriously and we check into mental institutions as fast as we can.

Just because one has watched life for said amount of years doesn't mean that they will always arrive at a rational thesis. There are people out in life that actually desire the extinction of humanity due to the constant mistakes humans make. People like that are quite insane and should be put into mental institutions, but they are living proof that people like "Zamasu" actually exist. But really, as much we believe that Zamasu is a twisted fuck, he does somewhat has a point when it comes to mortal deeds. One of which nearly killed Kaioshin and if you want to take Super's manga adaptation into account, Future Babidi and Dabra were responsible for the deaths of Kaioshin and Kibito.

Also it isn't Goku's fault that universes are going to be destroyed, that is Zeno's or whoever else's that instate the rule into the tournament.

Beerus still warned Goku of the repercussions of his actions though, so it was still a selfish act on Goku's part no matter how you slice it. Plus, this isn't the first time Goku's selfishness put lives at risk.

[SaiyanZ]

Just because one has watched life for said amount of years doesn't mean that they will always arrive at a rational thesis. There are people out in life that actually desire the extinction of humanity due to the constant mistakes humans make. People like that are quite insane and should be put into mental institutions, but they are living proof that people like "Zamasu" actually exist. But really, as much we believe that Zamasu is a twisted fuck, he does somewhat has a point when it comes to mortal deeds. One of which nearly killed Kaioshin and if you want to take Super's manga adaptation into account, Future Babidi and Dabra were responsible for the deaths of Kaioshin and Kibito.

It doesn't, you are correct, there are numerous deific characters in fiction who want to do the same thing as Zamasu: kill people because they are a disease or because of their violent nature. BUT where they are different and where Zamasu as a character fails at is that their rationale is well-supported. Sensui was a character who wanted that because of his sympathizing with demons, he was a character who had once been on the good side (like Zamasu) and eventually became villainous and wanted to kill humanity; his nickname was Black Angel which makes his god-like aura all the more convincing. His mind being mentally fucked when he saw the vilest nature of humans doing what they did to demons at the Festival of Blood, makes his rationale all the more convincing (also due to the fact in how Yu Yu Hakusho "realistically" depicts people as opposed to Dragon Ball). Series like that actually take the time to show how societies and governments are built on violence and they actually go into the very nature of humanity. They show how numerous war crimes are committed when they fight with each other for different causes, be it oppression against people or just a want to increase the size of their country. They show how humans have depleted the ozone layer and have made numerous other species of animals and/or planets endangered and/or extinct. In the case of Dragon Ball and Zamasu's character, it doesn't. Somewhat it was touched upon by those robbers who shot Wan and Mr Satan in the Buu arc, which ultimately made Buu transform in the end, but the difference is he was an intentionally bad person, a robber who felt that the world was going to shit and would just fuck around anyway. They DON'T speak for the everyday person. It was incredibly stupid for Zamasu to be pushed over the edge by a primitive barbaric race like the Babarians, OF COURSE any primitive race without much intelligence is going to have a savage nature. What he SHOULD'VE been pushed over the edge by was a more civilized group of people using violence for hedonistic purposes. The fact that the only conclusion he came to after watching these people for so many years (whose universe has people who are civilized given what Gowasu said) is that they're violent and they need to be wiped out WITHOUT showing said stuff is horrible writing. It doesn't matter whether there are people who desire the extinction of humanity, those aren't people we even think about or whose opinions we values. The reason we don't, is because their rationale makes no sense, they have no merit or actual facts to back up their claim. As soon as someone brings up Hitler, another can bring up Mother Teresa. Who cares whether they exist or not? That still doesn't make their arguments any less dumb. Zamasu doesn't have a point because the people he's talking about are not shown in the case of Universe 10, and the people he presumably learns about from Zuno are such a small iota of the entire mortal population. He's trying to justify his ideology and there is no justification. In the case of all the other villains who came before him and have that similar ideology, they are justified. You don't kill life across all 12 universes because a small sliver of the multiversal population like Freeza and the Saiyans and Cell were terrible people and fought. That's just stupid reasoning no matter whether you want to admit it or not. His whole rhetoric is immediately voided when he gets to the Universe 6 Saiyans or the Universe 7 Namekians. Those are peaceful people who CAN fight, but don't choose to when they don't have to. But no, shitty writing has him oversee that and kill them anyway.

Beerus still warned Goku of the repercussions of his actions though, so it was still a selfish act on Goku's part no matter how you slice it. Plus, this isn't the first time Goku's selfishness put lives at risk.

Beerus and Whis had told Goku to be careful in the past, and he was. Nothing bad happened when they talked after the Vs Universe 6 arc or when he visited him twice in the Zamasu arc. Goku asking for a tournament which Zeno himself wanted isn't him being selfish. If people want to blame someone, blame Zeno for instating the rule. If one is going to blame Goku for asking for a tournament, one must blame Champa for doing the same, because if it wasn't for him, Zeno wouldn't have even come in the first place. Also, I'm not talking about Goku's selfishness, his selfishness has nothing to do with this. If that's what they're trying to push this arc, RIP good writing.

[gohan_black]

cell motive is exactly like goku. got that from his Saiyan genes that he loves to fight strong opponents and test his limits. how is that bad? how he waited for gohan to fire the Kamehameha at him at the end. and when he was back from the death he told the z fighters that hes willing to give them another chance. just like how he dident kill trunks and declared about the cell games. if cell was really a generic vilian then he would just destroy everything and thats it. i agree that super buu/kid buu are generic but not cell.

[Freeza9000]

Just because one has watched life for said amount of years doesn't mean that they will always arrive at a rational thesis. There are people out in life that actually desire the extinction of humanity due to the constant mistakes humans make. People like that are quite insane and should be put into mental institutions, but they are living proof that people like "Zamasu" actually exist. But really, as much we believe that Zamasu is a twisted fuck, he does somewhat has a point when it comes to mortal deeds. One of which nearly killed Kaioshin and if you want to take Super's manga adaptation into account, Future Babidi and Dabra were responsible for the deaths of Kaioshin and Kibito.

It doesn't, you are correct, there are numerous deific characters in fiction who want to do the same thing as Zamasu: kill people because they are a disease or because of their violent nature. BUT where they are different and where Zamasu as a character fails at is that their rationale is well-supported. Sensui was a character who wanted that because of his sympathizing with demons, he was a character who had once been on the good side (like Zamasu) and eventually became villainous and wanted to kill humanity; his nickname was Black Angel which makes his god-like aura all the more convincing. His mind being mentally fucked when he saw the vilest nature of humans doing what they did to demons at the Festival of Blood, makes his rationale all the more convincing (also due to the fact in how Yu Yu Hakusho "realistically" depicts people as opposed to Dragon Ball). Series like that actually take the time to show how societies and governments are built on violence and they actually go into the very nature of humanity. They show how numerous war crimes are committed when they fight with each other for different causes, be it oppression against people or just a want to increase the size of their country. They show how humans have depleted the ozone layer and have made numerous other species of animals and/or planets endangered and/or extinct. In the case of Dragon Ball and Zamasu's character, it doesn't. Somewhat it was touched upon by those robbers who shot Wan and Mr Satan in the Buu arc, which ultimately made Buu transform in the end, but the difference is he was an intentionally bad person, a robber who felt that the world was going to shit and would just fuck around anyway. They DON'T speak for the everyday person. It was incredibly stupid for Zamasu to be pushed over the edge by a primitive barbaric race like the Babarians, OF COURSE any primitive race without much intelligence is going to have a savage nature. What he SHOULD'VE been pushed over the edge by was a more civilized group of people using violence for hedonistic purposes. The fact that the only conclusion he came to after watching these people for so many years (whose universe has people who are civilized given what Gowasu said) is that they're violent and they need to be wiped out WITHOUT showing said stuff is horrible writing. It doesn't matter whether there are people who desire the extinction of humanity, those aren't people we even think about or whose opinions we values. The reason we don't, is because their rationale makes no sense, they have no merit or actual facts to back up their claim. As soon as someone brings up Hitler, another can bring up Mother Teresa. Who cares whether they exist or not? That still doesn't make their arguments any less dumb. Zamasu doesn't have a point because the people he's talking about are not shown in the case of Universe 10, and the people he presumably learns about from Zuno are such a small iota of the entire mortal population. He's trying to justify his ideology and there is no justification. In the case of all the other villains who came before him and have that similar ideology, they are justified. You don't kill life across all 12 universes because a small sliver of the multiversal population like Freeza and the Saiyans and Cell were terrible people and fought. That's just stupid reasoning no matter whether you want to admit it or not. His whole rhetoric is immediately voided when he gets to the Universe 6 Saiyans or the Universe 7 Namekians. Those are peaceful people who CAN fight, but don't choose to when they don't have to. But no, shitty writing has him oversee that and kill them anyway.

Depends on what you would interpret as a small iota. Though for me (other people as well) there's a good amount of the human race that are prone to violence, murder, rape, etc. It is also shown that there are numerous mortal beings even in the DB franchise that cause destruction to themselves and other people especially for self indulgement, revenge, narcissism, etc. A mad scientist created a much of robots/Artificial humans (not to mention kidnapped teenagers and forcefully add cybernetic adjustments to their being) to kill Goku because his precious army was defeated which lead to entire populations of Earth being destroyed and those same artificial humans turned their backs on Gero to kill him and massacre the Earth in order to quench their satisfaction. Even fucking Cell selfishly violated the gods taboo of time traveling in order to attain his so called perfection and other characters did that too. Boo also killed numerous beings across the universe for millions of years and nearly killed all the Kaioshins. Watagash infected many evil beings and causing destruction of many civilizations according to Jaco. Frost in Universe 6 deceived others into believing his supposed heroicness and secretly caused wars and ended them, thus causing many lives to be lost in the process. DB does show a plethora of mortals that are prone to repeat the cycle of violence. It's true that that isn't the only things mortals are capable of, but in Zamasu's case, it's generalizing. So don't act like Zamasu came to hate mortals and got 'pushed over the edge" because of just seeing random Barbarians killing each other.

OF COURSE any primitive race without much intelligence is going to have a savage nature. What he SHOULD'VE been pushed over the edge by was a more civilized group of people using violence for hedonistic purposes

If this "civilized" group of people are abusing their powers to cause more heinous deeds for self indulgement, how are they any more civilized?

[HeroR]

cell motive is exactly like goku. got that from his Saiyan genes that he loves to fight strong opponents and test his limits. how is that bad? how he waited for gohan to fire the Kamehameha at him at the end. and when he was back from the death he told the z fighters that hes willing to give them another chance. just like how he dident kill trunks and declared about the cell games. if cell was really a generic vilian then he would just destroy everything and thats it. i agree that super buu/kid buu are generic but not cell.

Super Buu is basically a better Cell since he wants to fight strong people too, but it doesn't prevent him from doing the pragmatic thing, like trying to stop Goku from fusing with Vegeta even if he thought it would do little good, unlike Cell who would've let it happened to get a good challenged. Cell was very much the generic Dragon Ball villain since he had the ball in his corner and screwed around instead of doing anything with it. The only thing that made him different was his utter lack of motive once he became perfect.

Kid Buu isn't generic for Dragon Ball because unlike all the other villains up to that point, he had no pride to take advantage of, didn't care about being the strongest in the universe, or care about fighting strong people. It just wanted to kill and blew up the Earth without bothering to fight Goku and Vegeta. You know, the very thing that every other villain should have done if they didn't have an ego the size of the Milky Way.

[AloversGaming]

Since Frost. This forum and Reddit were pulling their hairs out when he showed his true colours

[SansrivaaL]

Since Freeza, never have anyone pushed Goku to that sort of rage since Freeza, sadly no new form for him *booooooo* and to how Black sadistically told Goku how he murdered his family was priceless.
I didnt really like Cell, more so with Boo.
TBH Black was the only good thing about the whole arc, and Nozawa's amazing performance with him.

[SaiyanZ]

Depends on what you would interpret as a small iota. Though for me (other people as well) there's a good amount of the human race that are prone to violence, murder, rape, etc. It is also shown that there are numerous mortal beings even in the DB franchise that cause destruction to themselves and other people especially for self indulgement, revenge, narcissism, etc. A mad scientist created a much of robots/Artificial humans (not to mention kidnapped teenagers and forcefully add cybernetic adjustments to their being) to kill Goku because his precious army was defeated which lead to entire populations of Earth being destroyed and those same artificial humans turned their backs on Gero to kill him and massacre the Earth in order to quench their satisfaction. Even fucking Cell selfishly violated the gods taboo of time traveling in order to attain his so called perfection and other characters did that too. Boo also killed numerous beings across the universe for millions of years and nearly killed all the Kaioshins. Watagash infected many evil beings and causing destruction of many civilizations according to Jaco. Frost in Universe 6 deceived others into believing his supposed heroicness and secretly caused wars and ended them, thus causing many lives to be lost in the process. DB does show a plethora of mortals that are prone to repeat the cycle of violence. It's true that that isn't the only things mortals are capable of, but in Zamasu's case, it's generalizing. So don't act like Zamasu came to hate mortals and got 'pushed over the edge" because of just seeing random Barbarians killing each other.

And its him generalizing which is exactly the problem with his character and his writing, because said generalization is so poor and virtually unfounded. Watching people and only coming to the conclusion that all these guys need to die because they fight is just stupid. He has no reason for that. If what he wanted to do was kill people who just fight, then he should've been more selective in who he chose to kill, but no, he kills peaceful Namekians and the lot just because he can. The Babarians ARE what pushed him over the edge as that was the first time he had killed someone himself, in both the anime and the manga, which is why he had a malicious look in the manga and a dazed/shocked one in the anime after he did the deed. That was clearly the start of his descent into villainy.

If this "civilized" group of people are abusing their powers to cause more heinous deeds for self indulgement, how are they any more civilized?

Civilized as in having sophistication and intelligence, showcasing that they have things like morals and high self-awareness. The Babarians lacked these things, even after a 1000 years where their society was a very crude one.

[Freeza9000]

And its him generalizing which is exactly the problem with his character and his writing, because said generalization is so poor and virtually unfounded. Watching people and only coming to the conclusion that all these guys need to die because they fight is just stupid. He has no reason for that. If what he wanted to do was kill people who just fight, then he should've been more selective in who he chose to kill, but no, he kills peaceful Namekians and the lot just because he can.

Well, if there's a large abundance of that violence (which there arguably is), then I guess that at least gives "some" validity to Zamasu's thesis on humanity. Zamasu made a smart decision by (presumably) killing the Namekians since there was a possibility that the DBs could've been used against him. And he kills the Earthlings of the future since as Zamasu put it, they helped build a time machine and broke the taboo of time traveling.

The Babarians ARE what pushed him over the edge as that was the first time he had killed someone himself, in both the anime and the manga, which is why he had a malicious look in the manga and a dazed/shocked one in the anime after he did the deed. That was clearly the start of his descent into villainy.

Well, it's not the first time Zamasu ever saw violent mortals wrecking havoc on each other though. He would've done the same with characters like Freeza, Saiyans, etc. I'd argue that Goku was what truly set Zamasu off the edge. The fact that a mere mortal like Goku was powerful enough to rival gods amplified Zamasu's derogatory views towards mortals and how dangerous they can be. It led to Zamasu becoming increasingly and disturbingly more obsessed with Goku and taking his body. Hell, he fell disturbingly in love and revering Goku's body and even became influenced by the body's instincts at times as Black did once state that "my body wants him" (EP 57) as it showing an obsession and bloodlust to kill Goku.

[Freeza9000]

But beyond that, Zamasu is just another annoying hypocritical brat with some seriously backwards logic.

So villains having twisted logic detracts from the villain? Jeeeeezzzz

[SaiyanZ]

Well, if there's a large abundance of that violence (which there arguably is), then I guess that at least gives "some" validity to Zamasu's thesis on humanity. Zamasu made a smart decision by (presumably) killing the Namekians since there was a possibility that the DBs could've been used against him. And he kills the Earthlings of the future since as Zamasu put it, they helped build a time machine and broke the taboo of time traveling.

Of course, there are people who love to fight, but you don't go and kill every single person ever because of that. Him respecting the rule of not using time travel is a direct contradiction to his action of killing the gods. Its just such a stupid reason too, as though traveling to the past is any different than traveling to the future.

Well, it's not the first time Zamasu ever saw violent mortals wrecking havoc on each other though. He would've done the same with characters like Freeza, Saiyans, etc. I'd argue that Goku was what truly set Zamasu off the edge. The fact that a mere mortal like Goku was powerful enough to rival gods amplified Zamasu's derogatory views towards mortals and how dangerous they can be. It led to Zamasu becoming increasingly and disturbingly more obsessed with Goku and taking his body. Hell, he fell disturbingly in love and revering Goku's body and even became influenced by the body's instincts at times as Black did once state that "my body wants him" (EP 57) as it showing an obsession and bloodlust to kill Goku.

Of course he hates Goku, but the action that made him commit to villainy was him killing that Babarian.