Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
DragonBallLove wrote:I can see what you say about stereotypes with Otokosuki (albeit I always though he was a specifical Freddy Mercury parody), but whats remotely wrong with those black people depictions FOR A CULTURE WITH NO SLAVERY, SEGREGATION, COON IMAGERY OR BLACKFACES? Historical butthurting, I can understand. But shoving your traumas into others (either people or cultures) is just short-sighted.
Because they imported our offensive-ass racial charicatures and continue to use them without question. That Japan doesn't have the population to cause backlash doesn't mean we have to call it okay. It's this odd situation where you have to simultaneously acknowledge the imagery isn't being invoked with malicious intent, but at the same time it's still othering as shit.
On topic, no. Videl is a well-rounded character, as are most women in Dragon Ball, even if they're a small portion of the cast, and you can't go too far in a scene designed to be horrific (well, within reason).
Cipher wrote:
On topic, no. Videl is a well-rounded character, as are most women in Dragon Ball, even if they're a small portion of the cast, and you can't go too far in a scene designed to be horrific (well, within reason).
On that note, in any of the series, did Videl ever get a fight where she wasn't against an opponent that could stomp her easily?
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
Cipher wrote:
On topic, no. Videl is a well-rounded character, as are most women in Dragon Ball, even if they're a small portion of the cast, and you can't go too far in a scene designed to be horrific (well, within reason).
On that note, in any of the series, did Videl ever get a fight where she wasn't against an opponent that could stomp her easily?
ekrolo2 wrote:
Meanwhile none of the main characters are white men, and there has been violence aimed at pretty much all nationalities in Dragonball yet I don't see much complaints.
Not only all nationalities but also aliens .
dbz killed a entire race of green men and exploded the Earth,it has already gone "too far".
Anyways, no I don't think Toriyama think too far mostly because the beating isn't even that brutal in the manga. I'm honestly glad it happened because it shows Toriyama had fucking balls by letting the readers know true warriors don't see gender when it comes to combat and I'm sick of SJW bullshit in cartoons/anime/manga where the woman aren't allowed to get hit under any circumstances (even when they're asking for it).
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: ↑Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
DBZAOTA482 wrote:Anyways, no I don't think Toriyama think too far mostly because the beating isn't even that brutal in the manga. I'm honestly glad it happened because it shows Toriyama had fucking balls by letting the readers know true warriors don't see gender when it comes to combat and I'm sick of SJW bullshit in cartoons/anime/manga where the woman aren't allowed to get hit under any circumstances (even when they're asking for it).
Agreed, you have no idea how teeth-grindingly obnoxious it is when I see someone complain about Carol Danvers getting hurt in a fucking superhero comic. You can't be a superhero without getting punched in the face on a daily basis.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
DBZAOTA482 wrote:Anyways, no I don't think Toriyama think too far mostly because the beating isn't even that brutal in the manga. I'm honestly glad it happened because it shows Toriyama had fucking balls by letting the readers know true warriors don't see gender when it comes to combat and I'm sick of SJW bullshit in cartoons/anime/manga where the woman aren't allowed to get hit under any circumstances (even when they're asking for it).
Agreed, you have no idea how teeth-grindingly obnoxious it is when I see someone complain about Carol Danvers getting hurt in a fucking superhero comic. You can't be a superhero without getting punched in the face on a daily basis.
I'm sure this lunacy will end or at least be subdued when the pendulum swings right.
DBZAOTA482 wrote:
Toriyama had fucking balls by letting the readers know true warriors don't see gender when it comes to combat
Don't think this counts as ballsy back in the day, since none of that bullshit had started back then. Besides, it's still an anime/manga, a portion of fiction notorious for giving no fucks to modern day screams.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
I've never had a problem with Videl's beatdown. I think a lot of people forget that Dragon Ball is a fighting show, and no matter the gender, anything can happen when fisticuffs are thrown.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
saunasolmu wrote:No. For example Goku's been beaten down much worse in the series. Just because it happened to a woman doesn't suddenly make it misogynistic, as neither does Vegeta getting brutally battered by no.18 make it misandric.
Thinking about it, wouldn't it be misogynistic if Toriyama DIDN'T have Videl get her ass handed to her so badly.
saunasolmu wrote:No. For example Goku's been beaten down much worse in the series. Just because it happened to a woman doesn't suddenly make it misogynistic, as neither does Vegeta getting brutally battered by no.18 make it misandric.
Thinking about it, wouldn't it be misogynistic if Toriyama DIDN'T have Videl get her ass handed to her so badly.
It's a lose-lose situation. He's either thinking less of her becasuse she;s a woman, or he enjoys violence against woman. WE'RE THE INTERNET, THERE IS NO GREY AREA!
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:
Spoiler:
HeroR wrote:The characters in Super can work with Goku and they're treated like equals to him. Goku just being in the room doesn't take away from the character. In Z, the characters were so depended on Goku that they couldn't go an episode without mentioning him in some way even by hoping he will arrived, get better, training to get stronger, our last hope, being like him, ect. Goku was wanked to hell in Z, even when he wasn't in the room and everyone else was secondary to him. In fact, this was a major issue Goku had, which is why he didn't want to do anything in the Buu Saga.
Kanassa wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:I hope Mark is dead. But chances are the dragonballs will bring his stupid ass back.
saunasolmu wrote:No. For example Goku's been beaten down much worse in the series. Just because it happened to a woman doesn't suddenly make it misogynistic, as neither does Vegeta getting brutally battered by no.18 make it misandric.
Thinking about it, wouldn't it be misogynistic if Toriyama DIDN'T have Videl get her ass handed to her so badly.
It's a lose-lose situation. He's either thinking less of her becasuse she;s a woman, or he enjoys violence against woman. WE'RE THE INTERNET, THERE IS NO GREY AREA!
I don't see anything wrong with this in fiction, I enjoyed that scene quite a bit. Watching Gohan be forced to do nothing as his girl got crushed in front of him was great.
Hakaishin Saitama wrote:
Thinking about it, wouldn't it be misogynistic if Toriyama DIDN'T have Videl get her ass handed to her so badly.
It's a lose-lose situation. He's either thinking less of her becasuse she;s a woman, or he enjoys violence against woman. WE'RE THE INTERNET, THERE IS NO GREY AREA!
I don't see anything wrong with this in fiction, I enjoyed that scene quite a bit. Watching Gohan be forced to do nothing as his girl got crushed in front of him was great.
Of course this topic gets political. If I wanted to read about sjw this and feminist that and swinging right or left I'd go on Twitter and Reddit.
No, compared to having a 5 year old's neck snapped having a teenage girl,who is shown to be the 2nd strongest female character (strongest without enhancements) and probably the strongest non Z-Warrior, getting beat up is nothing. Especially when male characters have taken far worse.
Hell if you wanted to argue about misogyny or sexism in Dragon Ball you'd have a better time arguing about the overt sexualization of Bulma, a teenage girl, in the early parts of Dragon Ball. And that eventually stopped, thank god.
I always though it was to Videl's credit that despite how powerful her enemy is and how badly she was hurt she never backed down and kept fighting until she had nothing left.
She is not portrayed as meek, submissive or fragile nor is she loosing to Spopovich because he's a man. She is a women fighting against a foe who has given up his humanity for power, who is trying to kill her and she will not give up.
When she starts crying in the anime thats not to show women are weak and besides other characters in times of deep emotional distress such as Vegeta, Trunks and Gohan have cried to.
Hardly a piss-poor representation of a women's fighting sprite.
As has been said many times in the thread already, this is a series where much worse things have happened. And there's really nothing here we haven't seen before. We've seen people knocked around. We've seen people picked up by the hair. We've seen people have their teeth knocked out. No, there's certainly nothing in Videl's beatdown itself that makes it misogynistic. There are definitely some points that are pretty brutal, especially for what we typically seen in a tournament match. And Spopovitch certainly goes too far in places, especially when he actually stops her from falling out of bounds just so he can beat on her some more. But I don't think it should make a difference whether it's Videl or any other character in her place.
What I think is pretty sexist is the way it's portrayed by the story and perceived by the characters. The whole thing gives off this vibe of "women are delicate flowers, and we know Spopovitch is evil because he dares to beat up a woman... in a fighting tournament." The real kicker, the one that makes me throw up my hands in disgust is when Gohan actually says, "He's not going to go easy on her just because she's a girl!" Oh, is that how it works? Wow. It's amazing we don't see more women in the Budoukai finals because they appear to have an incredible advantage if their male opponents are expected to "go easy on them" unless they're possessed by evil magic. Geez, at least when Namu fell into that stereotype, it was treated as something he had to overcome!
So Toriyama is certainly writing this fight of violence that doesn't even match up to violence levels we've seen perpetrated against young children as if we're supposed to believe it's going too far. That it's completely horrific, but mostly just because the recipient is a woman.
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Gaffer Tape wrote:As has been said many times in the thread already, this is a series where much worse things have happened. And there's really nothing here we haven't seen before. We've seen people knocked around. We've seen people picked up by the hair. We've seen people have their teeth knocked out. No, there's certainly nothing in Videl's beatdown itself that makes it misogynistic. There are definitely some points that are pretty brutal, especially for what we typically seen in a tournament match. And Spopovitch certainly goes too far in places, especially when he actually stops her from falling out of bounds just so he can beat on her some more. But I don't think it should make a difference whether it's Videl or any other character in her place.
What I think is pretty sexist is the way it's portrayed by the story and perceived by the characters. The whole thing gives off this vibe of "women are delicate flowers, and we know Spopovitch is evil because he dares to beat up a woman... in a fighting tournament." The real kicker, the one that makes me throw up my hands in disgust is when Gohan actually says, "He's not going to go easy on her just because she's a girl!" Oh, is that how it works? Wow. It's amazing we don't see more women in the Budoukai finals because they appear to have an incredible advantage if their male opponents are expected to "go easy on them" unless they're possessed by evil magic. Geez, at least when Namu fell into that stereotype, it was treated as something he had to overcome!
So Toriyama is certainly writing this fight of violence that doesn't even match up to violence levels we've seen perpetrated against young children as if we're supposed to believe it's going too far. That it's completely horrific, but mostly just because the recipient is a woman.
I agree with you there, Gaffer.
I mean, yeah, the fight between Videl and Sopopovitch did go a bit too far in places (like him stopping her from going out of bounds, as you mentioned), but looking back on it, everyone's response to it could've been more "She can barely fight anymore! You already won! Please stop!" and less "How dare you attack a girl in a martial arts tournament?!"
Like, seriously, Gohan. We know you like her and you don't particularly like violence in general and all, but you should know that you're in a fighting tournament and that Videl was already pretty tough and skilled, especially since you trained her!
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