How strong is Base Goku?

[AvatarReiko]

please tell me this isn't just so people can pit goku against superman again

It always is about pitting Goku vs Superman as the endgame, otherwise there would be no debates regarding Goku's feats on some level of comparison to Superman because he is pretty much the Japanese Clark Kent.

Except Superman would never struggle with Krillin. He would speed blitz one shot

[cheddarsword]

please tell me this isn't just so people can pit goku against superman again

It always is about pitting Goku vs Superman as the endgame, otherwise there would be no debates regarding Goku's feats on some level of comparison to Superman because he is pretty much the Japanese Clark Kent.

Except Superman would never struggle with Krillin. He would speed blitz one shot

Krillin Owned Count: 37

[ChiefWamsutta]

The filler writers made a nod to the old scheme again in this week's episode. Goku reverted back to base from Super Saiyan before going SSj Blue, as if he was shifting to a godly base before transforming into Blue.

In the U6 arc, transformations from SSj to Blue were direct instead.

I noticed that too. It's really cool.

If Frieza trained and got to SSB level, then Skinny Buu could easily be at SSG level. It looks like Base Goku will fight Skinny Buu, which would be consistent.

[Tectorman]

The filler writers made a nod to the old scheme again in this week's episode. Goku reverted back to base from Super Saiyan before going SSj Blue, as if he was shifting to a godly base before transforming into Blue.

In the U6 arc, transformations from SSj to Blue were direct instead.

Earlier, I was theorizing that the reason we haven't seen SSB2 or SSB3 yet was that using SSJ (and its subsequent improvements) and using God ki are two separate masteries that Goku and Vegeta have so far only managed to juggle in the form of SSB (that is to say, God ki with one SSJ transformation stacked on top). While I'm not going to call it a confirmation, it is nice to see the series line up with my suppositions.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The Z Fighters fought Frieza's army suppressed down to their level (well, closer to their level) because for whatever reason, they didn't want to kill any of them. And except for Jaco, they all took a Senzu bean at the end of that. Hence, my claim that suppression causes some form of drain.

I think the reason they got tired is because they were suppressing their ki close to the soldiers' level in order not to kill them, so they had to put some effort to beat them as they were close in power with them, which is why they got tired.

As for why Goku & Vegeta aren't using their base with SSG power state, it's easier to walk around at their base level rather than their SSG level, and it is also more fun for them to be weaker in their fights against weaker opponents. Imagine Goku & Vegeta being at SSG level against the U6 fighters (except Hit), it would have been really boring for them.

[pacz360]

please tell me this isn't just so people can pit goku against superman again

It always is about pitting Goku vs Superman as the endgame, otherwise there would be no debates regarding Goku's feats on some level of comparison to Superman because he is pretty much the Japanese Clark Kent.

Except Superman would never struggle with Krillin. He would speed blitz one shot

And lose to batman.

[pacz360]

And no theres no two base crap people seem so desprate to push otherwise characters would've mention that in his fight against hit or any point of the series
Base goku stronger than ssj3 gotenks given copy vegeta who had the same powers of regular vegeta did the same with ease
Without powering up or anything in base you can argue whether or not there god level in base but trying to act like they recton it or something without it being implied in or out of universe is ridiculous

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And no theres no two base crap people seem so desprate to push otherwise characters would've mention that in his fight against hit or any point of the series
Base goku stronger than ssj3 gotenks given copy vegeta who had the same powers of regular vegeta did the same with ease
Without powering up or anything in base you can argue whether or not there god level in base but trying to act like they recton it or something without it being implied in or out of universe is ridiculous

You are telling me that Cabba, Piccolo, Kuririn, and base Gohan who still isn't Ultimate (yet is stronger than Ultimate according to you?!) being at god level is less stupid & ridiculous? Is it less stupid to think that the whole power scaling in Super is fucked up by the ass instead of taking a clue from an official video game & another clue from some freaking common sense? I mean, what the hell?

And it is implied. Super Saiyan Blue is described as the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. By this definition, base Goku is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue is his regular Super Saiyan form. Yet why does he still turn gold after the fight with Freeza? Why is base Black stronger than SS3 Goku when he is supposed to be weaker than base Goku at the same time, even when he comes close to the level of gods through further power-ups? Why did Black's golden Super Saiyan form become pink when he drew out all of Goku's dormant powers? If base Black is so many hundreds of times stronger than base Goku & Vegeta, why is he at around the same level as SSB Goku & Vegeta in his SSR form (which is his version of SSB) and not many hundreds of times stronger than them? There are your implications.

Yes, it was never explained (only in one video-game), but many things about all the new forms in Super (Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue, Super Saiyan Rosé, Super Saiyan Rage) aren't explained either, so is it really surprising?

[Tectorman]

The Z Fighters fought Frieza's army suppressed down to their level (well, closer to their level) because for whatever reason, they didn't want to kill any of them. And except for Jaco, they all took a Senzu bean at the end of that. Hence, my claim that suppression causes some form of drain.

I think the reason they got tired is because they were suppressing their ki close to the soldiers' level in order not to kill them, so they had to put some effort to beat them as they were close in power with them, which is why they got tired.

True, and under other circumstances, I would agree that that is one of the reasons, if not the sole reason, for everyone wanting a Senzu. But Frieza being able to control his power level but nevertheless needing suppression forms still has me wondering.

You are right about Goku and Vegeta not wanting their fights to be boring, so maybe I should give the "preference" reason more credit.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

True, and under other circumstances, I would agree that that is one of the reasons, if not the sole reason, for everyone wanting a Senzu. But Frieza being able to control his power level but nevertheless needing suppression forms still has me wondering.

Suppressed or not, they still get tired. Piccolo needed a senzu when he was suppressed & Dr. Gero stole his power. They got tired because their fight was hard as a result from being suppressed, not because they were suppressed.

As for Freeza, he probably needed the forms because he couldn't control his power perfectly like Goku & co. do. He could only suppress it that much (around 3 million), and to suppress it even further he needed transformations.

[theherodjl]

It always is about pitting Goku vs Superman as the endgame, otherwise there would be no debates regarding Goku's feats on some level of comparison to Superman because he is pretty much the Japanese Clark Kent.

Except Superman would never struggle with Krillin. He would speed blitz one shot

And lose to batman.

And then Batman would go on to defeat Lex Luthor, Darkseid, Mongol, Imperiex, Mr. Mxy, and every other Superman villain under the sun because if you can defeat Superman then you a real rad dude. It only goes to show how powerful The Joker must be if he can defeat Batman, disregard the time he was killed by Superman because he was just jokering around then.

[pacz360]

And no theres no two base crap people seem so desprate to push otherwise characters would've mention that in his fight against hit or any point of the series
Base goku stronger than ssj3 gotenks given copy vegeta who had the same powers of regular vegeta did the same with ease
Without powering up or anything in base you can argue whether or not there god level in base but trying to act like they recton it or something without it being implied in or out of universe is ridiculous

You are telling me that Cabba, Piccolo, Kuririn, and base Gohan who still isn't Ultimate (yet is stronger than Ultimate according to you?!) being at god level is less stupid & ridiculous? Is it less stupid to think that the whole power scaling in Super is fucked up by the ass instead of taking a clue from an official video game & another clue from some freaking common sense? I mean, what the hell?

And it is implied. Super Saiyan Blue is described as the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. By this definition, base Goku is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan Blue is his regular Super Saiyan form. Yet why does he still turn gold after the fight with Freeza? Why is base Black stronger than SS3 Goku when he is supposed to be weaker than base Goku at the same time, even when he comes close to the level of gods through further power-ups? Why did Black's golden Super Saiyan form become pink when he drew out all of Goku's dormant powers? If base Black is so many hundreds of times stronger than base Goku & Vegeta, why is he at around the same level as SSB Goku & Vegeta in his SSR form (which is his version of SSB) and not many hundreds of times stronger than them? There are your implications.

Yes, it was never explained (only in one video-game), but many things about all the new forms in Super (Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue, Super Saiyan Rosé, Super Saiyan Rage) aren't explained either, so is it really surprising?

Gohan train with piccolo for 8 months and then trained again by end of the future trunks saga
Not to mention guys like champa commentating on how tough he was for surving a pitch from blue goku then have vegeta stating gohan has the higher potential outta him and goku despite both having blue.
Then goku even mentioning gohan potential at the start of the arc
Is the power scaling in super a mess oh absolutely
But I'm not going to buy some ridiculous Theory of two bases where the writers damn well aren't even implying in the story at all.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

I still want to know how people proposing the Two Base theory think it works for Vegeta. He trained to attain SSG all on his own and we're supposed to pretend that Vegeta's regular base isn't leagues above Goku's?

[Gog]

Can't Goku and Vegeta transform into Saiyan Beyond God? Maybe when they transform into that they're stronger than SS3 Gotenks, and when they don't they're as strong as they where in the Buu saga.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I still want to know how people proposing the Two Base theory think it works for Vegeta. He trained to attain SSG all on his own and we're supposed to pretend that Vegeta's regular base isn't leagues above Goku's?

Goku said that Vegeta obtained the power of SSG through training, so he probably unlocked the base with SSG state through training like Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan 2, etc.

This is only in the anime continuity though, in the movie & manga continuities, Vegeta became a Super Saiyan God & absorbed its power just like Goku did.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

So wouldn't training to get there eradicate Vegeta's old base completely, or at least make it extremely close to the new one in power? I don't see how the contrast between pre and post-ritual Goku can exist with Vegeta when the anime implies he attained God power so naturally and gradually.

[Tectorman]

True, and under other circumstances, I would agree that that is one of the reasons, if not the sole reason, for everyone wanting a Senzu. But Frieza being able to control his power level but nevertheless needing suppression forms still has me wondering.

Suppressed or not, they still get tired. Piccolo needed a senzu when he was suppressed & Dr. Gero stole his power. They got tired because their fight was hard as a result from being suppressed, not because they were suppressed.

As for Freeza, he probably needed the forms because he couldn't control his power perfectly like Goku & co. do. He could only suppress it that much (around 3 million), and to suppress it even further he needed transformations.

Well, there is something to that. In the U6 arc, it's revealed that the only reason Goku's able to combine SSB and Kaioken is because of SSB's ability of perfect ki control. The implication being that the other forms don't have that ability (though perfect ki control was obviously unnecessary in the case of Base, as he spent the first part of DBZ using Kaioken just fine). So SbG may have a similar limitation in how far it can go down, with the lesser forms being under that limit.

[Tectorman]

I still want to know how people proposing the Two Base theory think it works for Vegeta. He trained to attain SSG all on his own and we're supposed to pretend that Vegeta's regular base isn't leagues above Goku's?

How did he get SSB? Okay, that same way. Whether it's via Whis's training or his own efforts or having everyone go through the SSJG ritual (depending on which continuity we're looking at), I put Vegeta attaining SbG as a step along whatever path he took to get to SSB, either as a necessary step to SSB or an achievement incidental with SSB.

So wouldn't training to get there eradicate Vegeta's old base completely, or at least make it extremely close to the new one in power? I don't see how the contrast between pre and post-ritual Goku can exist with Vegeta when the anime implies he attained God power so naturally and gradually.

"Getting there" is just Vegeta going from not being able to use God-tier power in Base to being able to use God-tier power in Base (and from there, use SSB). He goes from one route to two routes, but there's no reason why the previous route goes away. The theory doesn't require any previous route to be eradicated because of how Vegeta got up there anymore than Goku's acquisition of SbG through the aftermath of the ritual got rid of his regular Base.

To borrow from this week's episode, it'd be like saying that because Krillin now has his new improved Taiyoken that he no longer has any idea how to do the original version. The original version may now be less effective so he doesn't bother to use it, but "not" does not equate to "can't".

This is only in the anime continuity though, in the movie & manga continuities, Vegeta became a Super Saiyan God & absorbed its power just like Goku did.

I don't remember the movie specifying how Vegeta got to SSB, nor do I remember SSJG being a thing for Vegeta in the manga. When were those established?

[Darkprince410]

I don't remember the movie specifying how Vegeta got to SSB, nor do I remember SSJG being a thing for Vegeta in the manga. When were those established?

They weren't. It was just the assumption following Vegeta's reveal of Ssj Blue in Revival of F (the movie) that he underwent the same overall process as Goku to absorb the Ssj God power, but it wasn't actually said that's what happened.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

To borrow from this week's episode, it'd be like saying that because Krillin now has his new improved Taiyoken that he no longer has any idea how to do the original version. The original version may now be less effective so he doesn't bother to use it, but "not" does not equate to "can't".

Krillin also likely gradually built his way up to Taiyoken x100 by developing it in increments. If Goku's so impressed by Vegeta getting to SSJG on his own, then I don't see how Vegeta would just suddenly jump from Base to God Base without the original Base drastically rising to get him there (in a way that Goku's obviously didn't) due to the fact that it was incurred by training. Otherwise it's literally just the ritual but without the need of other participants, in which case...well, I guess? Is that what people are actually saying?