Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[pacz360]

Just watched the episode with subs and noticed Piccolo saying he'll retrain Gohan's soft weakened body.

So yeah he definitely wasn't at his Ultimate level of strength during the Zen Exhibition then otherwise it wouldn't be weakened. Whether he was as a Super Saiyan is another matter. He might be if he's also about as strong as Fat Buu in Base.

I honestly look it as getting him to level far better than he was at his prime.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Show proof from this dragon book mate the anime differs from the manga so super buu > kid buu stands.

Super Boo>Pure Boo isn't stated anywhere so that idea doesn't stand regardless of how much you say it does. If the anime says that Pure Boo is stronger, then he is on the official level. The manga and anime are the same story and they supplement each other.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Cabba]

I get it, but the problem in the manga is another: Vegeta made the figure of fool, that uses, with no real need, the SSJ Blue to overcome Cabba, knowing all the debilitating effects to the new form (drastic power and energy consumption)
That's the only serious mistake of the manga

I think this was done beautifully actually
It was the perfect excuse for Goku to take over without turning Vegeta into fodder, because lets face it Goku was going to take it no matter what
Its implied he did it for Cabba to show him that higher real of power first hand so that one day he can reach it himself

why would goku lie about not being able to beat super buu?
He had no problem admitting he could beat fat buu yet never mentions he could beat super buu and if he was stronger he wouldn't scream at vegeta to fuse with him if he felt he could beat super buu,plus goku was alive when he made that comment not dead

Good point, could be that he didn't want to make Vegeta felt left out or his regular SS3 not fully charged
Otherwise Goku wouldn't have said you are going to bring Gotenks and Gohan to fight with us, implying Gohan alone is not enough to beat him

He might be if he's also about as strong as Fat Buu in Base.

Where was this implied though? That episode with Goku sparring Gohan was just senseless fun and holds same value as SSB vs Krllin
Goku holding back at base and during transformations

[pacz360]

Show proof from this dragon book mate the anime differs from the manga so super buu > kid buu stands.

Super Boo>Pure Boo isn't stated anywhere so that idea doesn't stand regardless of how much you say it does. If the anime says that Pure Boo is stronger, then he is on the official level. The manga and anime are the same story and they supplement each other.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

The manga is the main canon not the anime the anime is inconsistent trying to put kid buu as the strongest despite goku getting his ass kicked by buutenks and buuhan to suddenly trading blows the strongest one.

[Cabba]

Show proof from this dragon book mate the anime differs from the manga so super buu > kid buu stands.

Super Boo>Pure Boo isn't stated anywhere so that idea doesn't stand regardless of how much you say it does. If the anime says that Pure Boo is stronger, then he is on the official level. The manga and anime are the same story and they supplement each other.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

The manga is the main canon not the anime the anime is inconsistent trying to put kid buu as the strongest despite goku getting his ass kicked by buutenks and buuhan to suddenly trading blows the strongest one.

no no you are getting confused, no one in their right mind would say kid buu is stronger than those, It is pretty clear the strongest bu is buhan followed closely by butenks
What is being contested here is Super buu vs kid buu

[Noah]

If he collected his data properly in regards to the Kaioken then he would have know that Goku has issues when multiplying potency of the form. So the Kaioken is really a non-issue. The gulf in strength between what Goku could do in the Saiyan arc and what Goku could do after Namek is insanely large. So you expect me to believe that because of an extremely flawed multiplier technique he programmed the Androids to be far stronger than Freeza, Cell (his own creation!) and Super Saiyans? I don't buy that for a second.

Also, Goku never states that Android 8 is stronger than him. When Android 8 is released from his cage, he just says it's bad to kill when he's ordered by Ninja Murasaki to kill Goku. There's never any mention of his strength compared to Goku. The best we get is that Goku stating that Android 8 looks strong when he tells Goku that he thinks fighting is bad and that he's scared to fight.

Would you think Dr. Gero would be reckless and assume Goku who as a kid destroyed a whole army by himself, couldn't get way more stronger after his battle with Vegeta? Even considering he knew about Kaioken having issues, he would not take any risks. Androids 16, 17 and 18 were failures because they ended being much more powerful than he expected, they were dangerous thus being more difficult to control. You could pretty much assume that Gero himself thought 17 and 18 were way too much to just kill Goku, that's why he turned himself into android and build 19, he thought it would be enough. And no, I'm just providing a reasoning based on the explanation we had in this arc, that clearly you disagree and will keep disagreeing to prove your point "Android 17 being on par with SSJB Goku is not stupid as many things we had in Z" which is not really true.

About Android 8, Goku says: "You’re terrific when you get mad, Hatchan. Your punch was a lot more incredible than mine. You’re really good when you put your mind to it..." that implies he's at least more powerful than Goku at time.

[TheMikado]

I don't understand this at all, nothing implies Cell was trying to kill Krillin, he literally had no reason to. He just hit him hard enough to KO him instantly and without strain whatsoever. Same with Mr. Satan and I specifically mentioned gag characters..!

What it is you don't understand? Even if Cell put no effort into attacking Krillin, that alone would have strong enough to kill him given the huge gap in strength. And being a gag character doesn't make you invincible. Mr Satan being a gag character didn't save him from being shot in cold blood and nearly dying. And Mr Satan wasn't even treated a gag character initially. He was portrayed as legitimately the strongest martial artist in the world with a huge chip on his shoulder. I guess this mea

If Cell had visibly strained in hitting Krillin like Goku seemed to do against Cell you would have a point. But Cell hardly put any effort in at all. The whole first part of that was showing the gap between Cell and Krillin was so great that Cell didn't even notice. We don't even know if Cell meant to KO Krillin or if it was accidental because he was so powerful. Those are horribly examples to try to prove a point with when they primarily reinforce what we are saying. If the power gap is so huge the opponent should be dealt with with minimum effort even when holding back.

Cell doesn't need to show visible strain in attacking Krillin. That's not the main point. The main point is that with such a huge gap in strength, Cell could literally wipe Krillin off the face of the Earth with the flick of wrist. Cell had already dispilyed a killing mentality with everyone he encountered. So why no all of sudden would he feel compelled just to knock out Krillin? It makes no sense. Goku's intention where clear when he turned SSJB against Krillin: he wanted to see how Krillin could handle himself against a very strong opponent. Goku knows if he went all out, he could instantly kill Krillin. That's why he wanted measure just how resolve Krillin would have under an extreme circumstance.

The main complaint around the whole Krillin/SSJB Goku scenario is that because of the huge gap in strength between the two of them, that even when Goku is drastcially holding back as SSJB, Krillin should have been overwhelmed instantly and should not haved performed as well as he did in the circumstances. And yet we see instances where such Mr Satan getting swatted like fly into a mountain by Cell, Cell kicking Krillin in head, Bootenks kicking Tien in the head and Bulma getting slapped by Beerus, but apparently those are exceptions to the rule.

Are we really reimagining Mr.Satan of all people as a "serious" fighter just for the sake of defending Super. I think this is what people mean when they explain that we start reimagining things in the previous series just to fit our narrative of justifying Super. If Mr. Satan was anything but a gag character when it came to fighting, especially against Cell, someone please show me where. As to your point on Cell killing Krillin? You know we have never seen to my knowledge anyone killed via a physical connection unless they were outright sliced in half or decapitated. One of Dragonballs tropes is that characters take a ridiculous amount of damage without dying. We see it all the time it's not unique and nothing new. If Goku accidentally KOed Krillin in SSB you wouldn't hear a peak from anyone, but that's not what happened. Trying to use a not great scenario to justify an even worse one doesn't work. I mean I think the argument is ridiculous, using Mr. Satan of all people. I didn't give a crap that Beerus slapping Bulma and I didn't instantly vaporize her and kill tien or Gotenks. No one ever ever ever ever made those crazy complaints. You're making up arguments that no one made. In Dragonball for whatever reason when characters hit other characters, that don't instantly die unless the user intended it. That's just the way it works, it's a staple and troupe of the series. I'm really not understanding what you're trying to prove with your examples but this is one of the reasons people become even more turned off from the franchise. Every criticism of Super points back to Z for some reason to the point where the argument isn't even coherent anymore.

[ZombieVito]

Just watched the episode with subs and noticed Piccolo saying he'll retrain Gohan's soft weakened body.

So yeah he definitely wasn't at his Ultimate level of strength during the Zen Exhibition then otherwise it wouldn't be weakened. Whether he was as a Super Saiyan is another matter. He might be if he's also about as strong as Fat Buu in Base.

They have to go into the RoSaT for sure right? How can he retrain his body in less than 37 hours otherwise?

[Bullza]

They have to go into the RoSaT for sure right? How can he retrain his body in less than 37 hours otherwise?

I highly doubt they'll go into the ROSAT. The opening for the show shows them training outside in an area similar to where Gohan just met Piccolo in the last episode.

[Bulma's Foot Masseur]

Reminder that both Vegeta and Freeza got on Super Saiyan God Goku's level via a few months' training. If they can do that (combined with the "MY BULMA!"s and Super Saiyan Rages that we'll be seeing), then I don't see why any other character is disqualified from doing the same thing. (...Even if it's because the Goku Beerus fight did something to the universe to give everyone more potential.)

Still, only a matter of time until someone proposes the Two-Blue theory.

[emperior]

They have to go into the RoSaT for sure right? How can he retrain his body in less than 37 hours otherwise?

I highly doubt they'll go into the ROSAT. The opening for the show shows them training outside in an area similar to where Gohan just met Piccolo in the last episode.

But Gohan is in a tracksuit which makes me hope he will go the ROSAT for a while and then finish his training meditating in his tracksuit on those rocks.

[Gorou]

I think this was done beautifully actually
It was the perfect excuse for Goku to take over without turning Vegeta into fodder, because lets face it Goku was going to take it no matter what
Its implied he did it for Cabba to show him that higher real of power first hand so that one day he can reach it himself

For me was a great case of ingenuity by Vegeta. After two opponents as Botamo or Magetta, both equipped with special skills and insidious powers, it should have foresight, and anticipate the use of other special powers, especially to the most powerful warrior of the 6th universe.

This is the only flaw of a manga carried out with great diligence, which is proving to be much better than the anime, where Toriyama is much less involved

[emperior]

I reckon the U6 arc is not the best work be it manga or anime
But Black arc is done beautifully in the manga, no inconsistencies there

Did we read the same manga? "Future Trunks arc" is much worse in the manga in every aspect (it shouldn't even be called FT arc but Vegeta arc in the anime), especially power scaling which is even more inconsistent:
- Black as a SSJ is weaker than SSJ2 Vegeta, but in his base he's stronger than SSJ2 Trunks who is on par with SSJ3 Goku. Vegeta also comments how it was obvious Trunks couldn't handle Black.
- With a single Zenkai Black surpasses SSJ2 Vegeta (I like the reasoning) and then turns Rosè and is a lot stronger than everyone. But Trunks, who is weaker than his base, can still touch him, in the anime all Trunks did before achieving his new form was just kicking him ONCE (after a rage boost) and I still see people complaining about it.
- Vegeta after training in the ROSAT isn't much stronger, as Black comments, but he is able to beat Black by using a stupid form he recently achieved (which he should already have in the manga continuity) by turning Blue only when he attacks? Because Vegeta was able to overcome Blue's weakness of losing energy each time he uses it. Doesn't it sound like an extremely bullshit reason just to draw Vegeta as a Super Saiyan God? And how the hell can he beat Black who was stronger than him as a mere SSJ if he hasn't improved much at all? And couldn't he master Super Saiyan Blue so it doesn't drain any stamina, instead of pulling this stupid stunt?

The only thing the manga has over the anime is the flashback to Trunks' fight with Dabura, Trunks' SSJ2 hair, the usage of Kaioshin, the fact there is blood, the fact we got an explanation to Black's hair turning rose instead of blue and Goku being the one to Mafuba Zamasu. I also liked the explanation to Black's power-ups but the anime also had one (even though it wasn't deeply explained it was said Black was able to improve by fighting Goku and embody his fighting style and power)
The anime is better in everything else, and I would never ever trade off Anime Black for his manga counterpart.

[TheMikado]

Reminder that both Vegeta and Freeza got on Super Saiyan God Goku's level via a few months' training. If they can do that (combined with the "MY BULMA!"s and Super Saiyan Rages that we'll be seeing), then I don't see why any other character is disqualified from doing the same thing. (...Even if it's because the Goku Beerus fight did something to the universe to give everyone more potential.)

Still, only a matter of time until someone proposes the Two-Blue theory.

I agree Super set the precedent so anything is possible now. It's like OPMs parody of shonen was dead on. 100 push-ups, 100 sit-ups everyday for a few months get you to God tier levels. No but seriously we essentially have the two blue theory now: Goku is capable of holding back his Blue form to below his base level strength.

[Gorou]

@emperior

Vegeta, furios with Beerus, has exceeded SSJ3's Goku, both in BoG, which in the anime, where our Hakaishin has been forced to use 10% of its strength to overpowered the saiyan.
Evidently, Toyotaro has considered that furios boost like permanent.

[Bullza]

Well Goku definitely can suppress his Blue power.

Against Golden Frieza they fought for a while, Frieza got the upper hand and had him on the ground "defeated" and then Goku mentioned his weakness that would be affecting him soon.

Then before they started fighting again Goku powered up and Frieza said

"If you had that kind of power, you should have let it out from the beginning."

Then Golden Frieza powered up to full power and they continued fighting.

So it's not like they can only hold back whilst in Base form, they should be able to hold back in all their forms. He seemingly held back against Krillin.

[Marlowe89]

Android 17 being God-tier just make the whole existence and background of Super Saiyan God forms stupid

I still think we should wait and see on this one. They did provide an explanation for Frieza's godlike strength in RoF - he's a mutant with unnaturally absurd strength by default, never having trained in his life, so it makes sense to me that he could have equally absurd gains through training.

Maybe we'll get a similar acknowledgment during the next episode. It'd be a shame if nothing is ever mentioned about Goku going Blue against 17, especially considering that even as recently as the exhibition match, the gods themselves acknowledged Goku to have reached God level power with Super Saiyan Blue. Let's see how everything unfolds first.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I'm curious where people would put Krillin and Slim Buu now.

I have Krillin (Universe Survival Arc) just above Botamo.

I have Slim Buu just below Super Saiyan Vegito (Buu Arc).




I think it would be kind of neat to think that Frieza, the Saiyans, the Androids, and Buu can all gain massive power jumps via training.

Buu made huge gains in two hours and could probably reach SSBlue tier. (On the order of Days)
Frieza who had much greater potential could reach SSBlue tier easily. (On the order of Months)
Saiyans and Androids are more human-like, so it takes them longer, but definitely can reach SSBlue tier. (On the order of Years)

[The gr]

So do everyone agree with This video https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=you ... 6N9I6BtE,I really don't understand this guy logic,he said he studied a lot, about Herms statement in the v jump scoop of Gohan vs lavenda, but yet he didn't pay attention to Herms statement about tagoma not being ultimate, rather what Gohan said tagoma is as strong at his current and peak and condition, here's the quote

Ok so the sub I watch which are very accurate. Gohan said this about Togoma before Ginyu body change, "I'm sure he's hiding power comparable to what I had in my prime."

It's not "prime" in the sense of the strongest he's ever been in his entire life, but more like "peak condition", in the sense of his current personal best, when he isn't tired/wounded/etc.

and also he use dbz anime filler to highball the human character .Is not a bad video, they debunked the clunky power level series, but they didn't research the part of tagoma level.and he say piccolo is super strong Because he broke vados barrier, and goku and Frost didn't, but didn't he know Goku and Frost was controlling their power output to avoid damage, and piccolo was also doing that, but when Frost hit him,he fall unconscious and Lost his ki control hence the reason he broke the barrier

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Yeah, I never got the impression that Tagoma was really Ultimate Gohan level myself.

In fact, according to my calculations, if base Gohan is, for simplicity's sake, twice as strong as a Buu Saga level Piccolo, then he'd be about half as strong as Super Saiyan Goku from that same arc.

He multiplies his power by 50 times with Super Saiyan, which places him around SS2 Gotenks level, perhaps a little stronger.

I have Tagoma (regular or Ginyu-powered) anywhere from Buu Saga SS2 Goku/Vegeta level to Fat Buu's level.