How strong is Base Goku?

[Berserker1921]

I have goku without god ki above Frieza final form in namaek saga. Goku with half god ki about ssj3 goku level. Goku with full god ki. Prob around super Vegito level. Since vegeta was able to tank a ssj3 gotenks like it was nothing.

[Gorou]

The anime is too confusing about this. I think it is better to rely on the manga that much better the balance of power, leaving no room for power ups senseless.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This is honestly a lot like GT's confusion about Goku's power.

All we know for sure is that he's somewhere above Majin Buu. Which one is hard to pinpoint. I'd say, for simplicity's sake, we should go with being above Super Buu, which would squarely place him and Vegeta above SS3 Gotenks.

As for sparring with Gohan and Skinny Fat Buu, both of those were spars and not fully serious. Also, both had trained a lot at that point, so were stronger than before anyways. SS3 Gotenks level? Maybe, maybe a little underneath.

However, Copy-Vegeta in the Potaufeu Arc could be seen as being fully serious against SS3 Gotenks, and thus using his full power to tank and dish out hits, since he held no emotional attachment to them and wanted to fight them. However, since he didn't instantly mud-stomp him, let's say, for simplicity's sake, he's not massively above them, around Ultimate Gohan level, as I stated in my very first post.

This neatly wraps up the powerscaling whilst not diminishing his and Vegeta's gains and keeps the rest of the cast relevant to a degree.

[Gorou]

In some episodes seems that Goku base = Goku ssj = Goku ssj blue.

In other cases, Goku base seems so weak to be much weaker, or at least equal, to his youthful version of 10 years (which is not hurt by the bullets). Toei's logic..

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

In some episodes seems that Goku base = Goku ssj = Goku ssj blue.

In other cases, Goku base seems so weak to be much weaker, or at least equal, to his youthful version of 10 years (which is not hurt by the bullets). Toei's logic..

That's been the logic since RoF, where A SSB CAN BE TAKEN OFF-GUARD AND CRITICALLY INJURED BY A LASER.

But basically, these characters aren't infallible superheroes that are always ready for everything and anything. They get overconfident, they hold back, they underestimate things, they suffer the consequences because of that.

Goku getting a scratch from a bullet isn't as inexcusable as one might think. He was rusty, had to hold back to prevent himself from killing those robbers, and was overconfident in doing so. He wasn't paying attention fully, and got a small scratch out of it.

Remember, the body has physical limitations in Dragon Ball, which is overcome with Ki training. Also, the bullet that scratched him was from a modern assault rifle, which, even if of a lower quality than military-grade AP ammo, would still have been completely lethal to a normal Human. Only Goku's Saiyan body prevented it from being anything more than a scratch.

[TheMikado]

In some episodes seems that Goku base = Goku ssj = Goku ssj blue.

In other cases, Goku base seems so weak to be much weaker, or at least equal, to his youthful version of 10 years (which is not hurt by the bullets). Toei's logic..

That's been the logic since RoF, where A SSB CAN BE TAKEN OFF-GUARD AND CRITICALLY INJURED BY A LASER.

But basically, these characters aren't infallible superheroes that are always ready for everything and anything. They get overconfident, they hold back, they underestimate things, they suffer the consequences because of that.

Goku getting a scratch from a bullet isn't as inexcusable as one might think. He was rusty, had to hold back to prevent himself from killing those robbers, and was overconfident in doing so. He wasn't paying attention fully, and got a small scratch out of it.

Remember, the body has physical limitations in Dragon Ball, which is overcome with Ki training. Also, the bullet that scratched him was from a modern assault rifle, which, even if of a lower quality than military-grade AP ammo, would still have been completely lethal to a normal Human. Only Goku's Saiyan body prevented it from being anything more than a scratch.

I think the confusion is that base Goku/Vegeta are less than Final Form Frost, but greater than him. And Piccolo, who basically got massacred in RoF still performs half decently.
If Goku/Vegeta's base is at Buu arc levels then this makes sense. If its at far greater than SSJ3 Gotenks levels as implied in the Copy Water arc then Piccolo being stronger than base Goku makes no sense. The anime also implies Goku's base is similar to the Buu arc base with his spar with Gohan. Basically, having that Buu arc level base makes, Gohan and Trunks sparring match again Goku make more sense, and allows everyone in Universe 6 to be normal fighting levels.

[Hitiro]

I think the confusion is that base Goku/Vegeta are less than Final Form Frost, but greater than him. And Piccolo, who basically got massacred in RoF still performs half decently.
If Goku/Vegeta's base is at Buu arc levels then this makes sense. If its at far greater than SSJ3 Gotenks levels as implied in the Copy Water arc then Piccolo being stronger than base Goku makes no sense. The anime also implies Goku's base is similar to the Buu arc base with his spar with Gohan. Basically, having that Buu arc level base makes, Gohan and Trunks sparring match again Goku make more sense, and allows everyone in Universe 6 to be normal fighting levels.

To be fair, Goku and severely weakened Frost before Piccolo had to fight him and even then Goku said that Piccolo probably had no chance. So I wouldn't put much stock into Piccolo's fight against Frost.

[TheMikado]

I think the confusion is that base Goku/Vegeta are less than Final Form Frost, but greater than him. And Piccolo, who basically got massacred in RoF still performs half decently.
If Goku/Vegeta's base is at Buu arc levels then this makes sense. If its at far greater than SSJ3 Gotenks levels as implied in the Copy Water arc then Piccolo being stronger than base Goku makes no sense. The anime also implies Goku's base is similar to the Buu arc base with his spar with Gohan. Basically, having that Buu arc level base makes, Gohan and Trunks sparring match again Goku make more sense, and allows everyone in Universe 6 to be normal fighting levels.

To be fair, Goku and severely weakened Frost before Piccolo had to fight him and even then Goku said that Piccolo probably had no chance. So I wouldn't put much stock into Piccolo's fight against Frost.

In either case we see Vegeta needed to go SSJ to take him out so it implies he couldn't do that in base after Frost was in his third consecutive fight. If Vegeta was copy water arc powerful he should have only needed to blow hard.

[Hitiro]

In either case we see Vegeta needed to go SSJ to take him out so it implies he couldn't do that in base after Frost was in his third consecutive fight. If Vegeta was copy water arc powerful he should have only needed to blow hard.

It could merely be that Vegeta wouldn't be satisfied by hitting Frost at that level of power. Or maybe Vegeta had a deep-seeded need to decimate a member of Freeza's race? It could also be that he just wanted to finish it as quick as possible so he didn't have to waste his energy. He was pretty pissed whatever the reason. Looking at Goku's fight it was evident that Goku didn't really require his SSJ form it was completely one sided when he used it and Goku wasn't really struggling against Frost at the time when he decided to use the form.

[Gorou]

That's been the logic since RoF, where A SSB CAN BE TAKEN OFF-GUARD AND CRITICALLY INJURED BY A LASER.

But basically, these characters aren't infallible superheroes that are always ready for everything and anything. They get overconfident, they hold back, they underestimate things, they suffer the consequences because of that.

Goku getting a scratch from a bullet isn't as inexcusable as one might think. He was rusty, had to hold back to prevent himself from killing those robbers, and was overconfident in doing so. He wasn't paying attention fully, and got a small scratch out of it.

Remember, the body has physical limitations in Dragon Ball, which is overcome with Ki training. Also, the bullet that scratched him was from a modern assault rifle, which, even if of a lower quality than military-grade AP ammo, would still have been completely lethal to a normal Human. Only Goku's Saiyan body prevented it from being anything more than a scratch.

The main problem it is. A SSJB shot down by a common laser is a BIG, a huge, mistake, which has nothing to do with Akira Toriyama's logic. In the manga Kid Goku can take an ax in his head, at off-guard, without suffering any particular damage, and even the "common" martial arts experts can withstand bullets. Toei simply not follow these precepts of the manga, he never did. The error of SSJ drilled by a laser was coarse, and not surprisingly was cut off in the series

[TheMikado]

In either case we see Vegeta needed to go SSJ to take him out so it implies he couldn't do that in base after Frost was in his third consecutive fight. If Vegeta was copy water arc powerful he should have only needed to blow hard.

It could merely be that Vegeta wouldn't be satisfied by hitting Frost at that level of power. Or maybe Vegeta had a deep-seeded need to decimate a member of Freeza's race? It could also be that he just wanted to finish it as quick as possible so he didn't have to waste his energy. He was pretty pissed whatever the reason. Looking at Goku's fight it was evident that Goku didn't really require his SSJ form it was completely one sided when he used it and Goku wasn't really struggling against Frost at the time when he decided to use the form.

I'm pretty sure Frost told Goku that if he went to his final form he would take Goku out. At that would likely be the case if he was facing base Goku.
The argument that Vegeta didn't want to waste energy and ended it quickly doesn't make sense. SSJ is the "perfect ki control" form. Why not go SSB then? In fact, if he's that much stronger why waste the energy of transforming at all and one -shotting him? Is Frost really fighting above SSJ3 Gotenks levels? If so how does Piccolo even perform that well, if not, Vegeta shouldn't have to barely touch him to ring him out or KO him. Let alone transform at all.

[TheMikado]

That's been the logic since RoF, where A SSB CAN BE TAKEN OFF-GUARD AND CRITICALLY INJURED BY A LASER.

But basically, these characters aren't infallible superheroes that are always ready for everything and anything. They get overconfident, they hold back, they underestimate things, they suffer the consequences because of that.

Goku getting a scratch from a bullet isn't as inexcusable as one might think. He was rusty, had to hold back to prevent himself from killing those robbers, and was overconfident in doing so. He wasn't paying attention fully, and got a small scratch out of it.

Remember, the body has physical limitations in Dragon Ball, which is overcome with Ki training. Also, the bullet that scratched him was from a modern assault rifle, which, even if of a lower quality than military-grade AP ammo, would still have been completely lethal to a normal Human. Only Goku's Saiyan body prevented it from being anything more than a scratch.

The main problem it is. A SSJB shot down by a common laser is a BIG, a huge, mistake, which has nothing to do with Akira Toriyama's logic. In the manga Kid Goku can take an ax in his head, at off-guard, without suffering any particular damage, and even the "common" martial arts experts can withstand bullets. Toei simply not follow these precepts of the manga, he never did. The error of SSJ drilled by a laser was coarse, and not surprisingly was cut off in the series

Exactly, we've seen the "if powerful enough, normal things can't hurt you" trope a dozen times in Dragon Ball. It's weird to see that kinda changed but some people like that change, some people hate it, and some people won't admit anything changed at all.

[ChiefWamsutta]

In either case we see Vegeta needed to go SSJ to take him out so it implies he couldn't do that in base after Frost was in his third consecutive fight. If Vegeta was copy water arc powerful he should have only needed to blow hard.

It could merely be that Vegeta wouldn't be satisfied by hitting Frost at that level of power. Or maybe Vegeta had a deep-seeded need to decimate a member of Freeza's race? It could also be that he just wanted to finish it as quick as possible so he didn't have to waste his energy. He was pretty pissed whatever the reason. Looking at Goku's fight it was evident that Goku didn't really require his SSJ form it was completely one sided when he used it and Goku wasn't really struggling against Frost at the time when he decided to use the form.

I'm pretty sure Frost told Goku that if he went to his final form he would take Goku out. At that would likely be the case if he was facing base Goku.
The argument that Vegeta didn't want to waste energy and ended it quickly doesn't make sense. SSJ is the "perfect ki control" form. Why not go SSB then? In fact, if he's that much stronger why waste the energy of transforming at all and one -shotting him? Is Frost really fighting above SSJ3 Gotenks levels? If so how does Piccolo even perform that well, if not, Vegeta shouldn't have to barely touch him to ring him out or KO him. Let alone transform at all.

@TheMikado what you just said in bold is a simplified version of this whole issue, neatly packed into one sentence. Piccolo's power should not be greater than SS3 Gotenks. Cabba was called very weak by Vegeta, and Goku said that Frost did not train like Frieza. The U6 crew (besides Hit) should be rather weak. If Super Saiyan Goku (Buu Arc power) was fighting Frost then it would make sense.

I have gone back and forth on them having a very strong Base form. There's three options: 1) Goku and Vegeta's Bases are hugely strong; 2) Goku and Vegeta's Bases are Buu Saga level; 3) Goku and Vegeta have both Buu Saga level and hugely strong Bases. Situation #1 has numerous issues with powerscaling to the point that nothing makes sense. Situation #2 tries to avoid things like the Copy-Vegeta saga and say it is filler, which it is not. Situation #3 seems to alleviate things if we treat the hugely powerful Base as their SSGod forms. The manga shows that Goku and Vegeta have SSGod forms. I believe an integrated and holistic approach to the manga and anime can help reveal answers as they were intended by Toriyama.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

An issue I see is that people don't look at things broadly enough. The basic concepts behind specific scenes and episodes makes things a lot easier to swallow.

For example, the basic premise with Freeza was that he's never trained before but was born with magnificently huge power, but was surpassed by a being who'd trained his ass off and achieved hidden potential.

He learns that said being has defeated even Majin Buu, and sets out to surpass said being.

Easy correlation: Freeza trains to become stronger than a Goku who beat Buu, but is only equal in base forms with the even stronger Goku.

===

Another example, then. Goku beats Frost up as a Super Saiyan, which he turned into to force Frost to use his full power, and weakens him. Piccolo goes in, is flatly told he stands no chance, and uses cunning and strategy to take advantage of Frost's weakened stamina and power.

Easy correlation: Frost was weaker after fighting Goku, Piccolo used strategy to take advantage of that.

===

I know that both scenarios don't make much sense in-depth, but looking at what the basic intent was of those scenes, as well as others, the scenarios in the anime make sense. The writing is predicated on simple concepts and story-boards, not in-depth analyses and carefully constructed proposals like people attribute to Toyotaro's manga. It's a lazy way to look at it, but it's the one that makes the most sense.

Ergo, the basic premise right now is that Goku is stronger than Majin Buu, but only surpasses SSG with the superior SSB form.

[TheMikado]

The Frost scene I could almost buy, but Vegeta also goes SSJ to fight a weakened Frost. It implies Frost even in his weakened state is stronger than Vegetas base form, or at least would give him a difficult time. This would make sense if everything scales around Buu saga SSJ, but with SSJ basically being equal to SSG it doesn't make sense for Vegetabto use that level of power to fight a weakened Frost when his base should be x100 stronger than the weakened Frost fighting Piccolo who is now on his 3rd consecutive fit and his power apparently is so low that Piccolo could have accidentally killed him.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The Frost scene I could almost buy, but Vegeta also goes SSJ to fight a weakened Frost. It implies Frost even in his weakened state is stronger than Vegetas base form, or at least would give him a difficult time. This would make sense if everything scales around Buu saga SSJ, but with SSJ basically being equal to SSG it doesn't make sense for Vegetabto use that level of power to fight a weakened Frost when his base should be x100 stronger than the weakened Frost fighting Piccolo who is now on his 3rd consecutive fit and his power apparently is so low that Piccolo could have accidentally killed him.

Remember, not sense, concepts and basic ideas.

The basic idea is that SSB is how Goku and Vegeta surpassed SSG, stated by the narrator and characters in RoF. So let's not assume their regular forms are equal to SSG in that case, just greatly enhanced.

Piccolo used a Makankosappo beyond its normal limits, and used strategy to take advantage of Frost's depleting stamina. So let's not assume that power trumps strategy in that case.

Vegeta is stronger than Piccolo and equal to Goku, then goes Super Saiyan to instantly ring-out Frost. That's the wrinkle. There wasn't any obvious intent or basic concept to grasp like the other two analyses above this one, which makes it harder to tell. It could be as simple as Vegeta deciding to use Super Saiyan because Goku used it, or it could be something else.

So let's not assume out-of-universe sense takes priority over in-universe conceptual premises in that case.

[TheMikado]

The Frost scene I could almost buy, but Vegeta also goes SSJ to fight a weakened Frost. It implies Frost even in his weakened state is stronger than Vegetas base form, or at least would give him a difficult time. This would make sense if everything scales around Buu saga SSJ, but with SSJ basically being equal to SSG it doesn't make sense for Vegetabto use that level of power to fight a weakened Frost when his base should be x100 stronger than the weakened Frost fighting Piccolo who is now on his 3rd consecutive fit and his power apparently is so low that Piccolo could have accidentally killed him.

Remember, not sense, concepts and basic ideas.

The basic idea is that SSB is how Goku and Vegeta surpassed SSG, stated by the narrator and characters in RoF. So let's not assume their regular forms are equal to SSG in that case, just greatly enhanced.

Piccolo used a Makankosappo beyond its normal limits, and used strategy to take advantage of Frost's depleting stamina. So let's not assume that power trumps strategy in that case.

Vegeta is stronger than Piccolo and equal to Goku, then goes Super Saiyan to instantly ring-out Frost. That's the wrinkle. There wasn't any obvious intent or basic concept to grasp like the other two analyses above this one, which makes it harder to tell. It could be as simple as Vegeta deciding to use Super Saiyan because Goku used it, or it could be something else.

So let's not assume out-of-universe sense takes priority over in-universe conceptual premises in that case.

I'm not sure if I'm understanding you correctly? Are you saying we should ignore things like

- SSJ Goku vs Beerus, where Beerus says Goku did not power down much at all from SSG?
-SSJ3 Gotenks vs Copy Vegeta where base Vegeta who is similar to Goku didn't even have to block his attacks?

The level of power that Base Vegeta/Goku have should be enough to blink a character like Piccolo out of existence. Yet showing a character both in a prime fresh state, and a severely weakened state, but where both saiyans need to go SSJ to win easily sounds bizarre. Think about about this. Base Goku is above SSJ3 Gotenks to the point where he cant be hurt at all. Even weakened. Vegeta used SSJ against Frost. So where in the power scale does that put Piccolo? Below SSJ3 Gotenks? Above? Frost should have been instant KO'ed if he was really that weak against base Goku or even SSJ Goku. I'll by that this being Frost third consecutive fight made Vegeta knocking him out much easier. But nothing implies that he didn't need SSJ to win easily.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You're thinking in sense, again, not concepts.

I keep saying this, but people don't understand. I'm trying to get you guys to use what the intent or basic concept/preimse of the scenes are BEFORE you try and analyze how that can be possible.

The INTENT/PREMISE of Piccolo VS. Frost was that despite being a stronger opponent, Frost very nearly lost because of Piccolo's superior strategy and martial arts skill.

The INTENT/PREMISE of SSB is a form that surpasses even SSG.

The INTENT/PREMISE is that Goku and Vegeta are stronger than they've ever been, able to reach god level via SSB.

Now, filling in the gaps is what we're all doing here, but I'm stressing that understanding the POINT of these scenes is what we need to look at first and foremost, then determine how to make sense of it. I may not put any stock into Two-Base Theory, but if the people propping it up at least understand what the intent is behind the instances where they believe the theory fits, then I can respect them on that front.

===

To sum it up, think about what the creators intend from a scene, then work from there.

For example, in RoF and the Potaufeu Arc, the basic intent of Goku and Vegeta's base power level is that it surpasses Majin Buu, which is accomplished by showing them rivaling or gaining the upper hand on characters that are either at or have surpassed Majin Buu's level..

[Hitiro]

I'm pretty sure Frost told Goku that if he went to his final form he would take Goku out. At that would likely be the case if he was facing base Goku.
The argument that Vegeta didn't want to waste energy and ended it quickly doesn't make sense. SSJ is the "perfect ki control" form. Why not go SSB then? In fact, if he's that much stronger why waste the energy of transforming at all and one -shotting him? Is Frost really fighting above SSJ3 Gotenks levels? If so how does Piccolo even perform that well, if not, Vegeta shouldn't have to barely touch him to ring him out or KO him. Let alone transform at all.

That's what Frost thought but just because he thought it doesn't make it true. Does it? Goku thought that Freeza was bluffing when Freeza said he would only need 50% of his power to beat him back in the Namek Saga. Goku clearly thought that Freeza wasn't that strong. We could equally say the same for Frost not knowing Goku's true strength.

And why would Vegeta waste energy transforming into SSJB? SSJB actually costs more energy to transform into. This was evident when he thought Hit as Whis told us the repeated SSJB transformations had used up a lot of Vegeta's energy. This is also evident when Goku and Vegeta fuse into Vegetto and use SSJB. The transformation was supposed to last an hour but it only lasted a few mins.

I also never said that Vegeta and Goku were that much stronger than Frost. Just there would be an evident gap between their base forms and Frosts final form. It may not be that significant. Which is why they probably opted for using their SSJ transformations to conserve energy for later fights. Goku and Vegeta probably knew they wouldn't be able to keep up that pace if they had to win each fight with only a slight advantage. We also have to consider that Piccolo has also been training for 5 years up until this point. He was around the SSJs level of strength at the Cell Games, being the only other character left standing while fighting the Cell Jrs. That was 13 years ago. He had only gotten stronger since. I wouldn't put it past him to reach SSJ3 Gotenks tier after all those years. He is one of the only characters to be incredibly strong in his base form. And I still feel that Vegeta was just incredibly annoyed at Frost, being the same race as Freeza and being just as bad, and opted to beat him hard.

[TheMikado]

I'm pretty sure Frost told Goku that if he went to his final form he would take Goku out. At that would likely be the case if he was facing base Goku.
The argument that Vegeta didn't want to waste energy and ended it quickly doesn't make sense. SSJ is the "perfect ki control" form. Why not go SSB then? In fact, if he's that much stronger why waste the energy of transforming at all and one -shotting him? Is Frost really fighting above SSJ3 Gotenks levels? If so how does Piccolo even perform that well, if not, Vegeta shouldn't have to barely touch him to ring him out or KO him. Let alone transform at all.

That's what Frost thought but just because he thought it doesn't make it true. Does it? Goku thought that Freeza was bluffing when Freeza said he would only need 50% of his power to beat him back in the Namek Saga. Goku clearly thought that Freeza wasn't that strong. We could equally say the same for Frost not knowing Goku's true strength.

And why would Vegeta waste energy transforming into SSJB? SSJB actually costs more energy to transform into. This was evident when he thought Hit as Whis told us the repeated SSJB transformations had used up a lot of Vegeta's energy. This is also evident when Goku and Vegeta fuse into Vegetto and use SSJB. The transformation was supposed to last an hour but it only lasted a few mins.

I also never said that Vegeta and Goku were that much stronger than Frost. Just there would be an evident gap between their base forms and Frosts final form. It may not be that significant. Which is why they probably opted for using their SSJ transformations to conserve energy for later fights. Goku and Vegeta probably knew they wouldn't be able to keep up that pace if they had to win each fight with only a slight advantage. We also have to consider that Piccolo has also been training for 5 years up until this point. He was around the SSJs level of strength at the Cell Games, being the only other character left standing while fighting the Cell Jrs. That was 13 years ago. He had only gotten stronger since. I wouldn't put it past him to reach SSJ3 Gotenks tier after all those years. He is one of the only characters to be incredibly strong in his base form. And I still feel that Vegeta was just incredibly annoyed at Frost, being the same race as Freeza and being just as bad, and opted to beat him hard.

You are incorrect, you are mixing anime and manga continuities. According to the anime SSB has perfect ki control, and according to those in this forum they can perfectly tune that power output to whatever they want because its a perfected form. Basically going SSJ in the anime would waste more energy because the form lacks perfect ki control. As for how strong Piccolo is, even if he is SSJ3 Gotenks level he should still be FAR below even base form Vegeta/Goku based on the copy water arc, meaning they still should have been able to one shot Frost.

I'm pretty sure that part of this exchange was showing Piccolo was stronger than the base sayians, but we know he was definitely SSJ2/SPC levels at best due to the context of the previous arc with Frieza. I'm not sure where the 5 years of training comes from when we have a recent measurement of his approximate strength.