"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[hardcorefakes]

Implying that she's never trained before?

I mean, we have no real reason to believe she's done any significant training in her life. Else that would've been made apparent in her character, but it wasn't. As far we know, she mostly just focused on running her gang.

How do you even make it "apparent" in a character that they train? Why would it need to be? What the heck is "significant" training? Why else would a gang of Saiyans follow her as their leader? Because she is strong. She is obviously interested in power and fighting. They may not have gone on some exposition dump about how many push ups she does, but I don't understand why you would want to actually go with the assumption that she doesn't train. Unless she pulls a Freeza and says "I've never had to train" I think it's a safer assumption that she dabbles a little bit in the practice of punching and kicking.

Well you can start off by just outright saying it.

And that's just the bare minimum; it would be lazy, for sure, but we'd get some indication that she trains. We don't even get that much.

Why would training need to be apparent? So that random power-ups are justified, instead of being forced to take it at face value?

It's the reason why Goku's, Vegeta's, and Gohan's transformations didn't feel forced. Because they worked their butts off for them. Even with Gohan's latent power, that didn't stop him from training.

I have more reasons to believe Caulifla doesn't train than to assume that she does. She controls a gang of weaklings mostly, her being stronger than them naturally doesn't mean much. Kale is her personal protege, and she's not particularly strong in base. Tells you all you need to know about the other guys she hangs around with.

Again, just saying that she trains would be better than just handwaving it away as "she's a prodigy".

[Kanassa]

I have more reasons to believe Caulifla doesn't train than to assume that she does. She controls a gang of weaklings mostly, her being stronger than them naturally doesn't mean much. Kale is her personal protege, and she's not particularly strong in base. Tells you all you need to know about the other guys she hangs around with.

Even if that remotely meant that she controls a gang of weaklings, that does not imply in the slightest that she doesn't train.

[Boo Machine]

Well you can start off by just outright saying it.
And that's just the bare minimum; it would be lazy, for sure, but we'd get some indication that she trains. We don't even get that much.

Why do we have to be told? Do we assume none of these characters train unless it's said verbally? Obuni seemed like a dude who trains, but they never actually said it so I'm not sure we can believe it. Same with any character there.

Why would training need to be apparent? So that random power-ups are justified, instead of being forced to take it at face value?

No, I meant why does it need to be apparent that they train? Like does every character have to carry around a gym membership or it's not believable? Do they need to carry around a bag full of the weights they lift? Maybe do random push ups, just to reaaaaaaly shove it into our skulls that the characters is kinda into this. Just take all of the training images you can think of, place it on a giant spoon and catapult it right into our mouths for us to chew and digest.

I have more reasons to believe Caulifla doesn't train than to assume that she does.

I don't think that you do. If there is evidence that she doesn't train then it's not very "apparent". See what I did there?

She controls a gang of weaklings mostly, her being stronger than them naturally doesn't mean much. Kale is her personal protege, and she's not particularly strong in base. Tells you all you need to know about the other guys she hangs around with.

The strength of her gang isn't an indication of whether she trains or not. Goku hangs around earthlings all the time. But that obviously doesn't stop him from training. Same with Vegeta.

Again, just saying that she trains would be better than just handwaving it away as "she's a prodigy".

Prodigy handwaves how she is easily able to grasp the SSJ transformation. Not whether she trains or not. It's just a very weird thing to assume when we don't do this for any other character.

[hardcorefakes]

Well you can start off by just outright saying it.
And that's just the bare minimum; it would be lazy, for sure, but we'd get some indication that she trains. We don't even get that much.

Why do we have to be told? Do we assume none of these characters train unless it's said verbally? Obuni seemed like a dude who trains, but they never actually said it so I'm not sure we can believe it. Same with any character there.

Why would training need to be apparent? So that random power-ups are justified, instead of being forced to take it at face value?

No, I meant why does it need to be apparent that they train? Like does every character have to carry around a gym membership or it's not believable? Do they need to carry around a bag full of the weights they lift? Maybe do random push ups, just to reaaaaaaly shove it into our skulls that the characters is kinda into this.

I have more reasons to believe Caulifla doesn't train than to assume that she does.

I don't think that you do. If there is evidence that she doesn't train then it's not very "apparent". See what I did there?

She controls a gang of weaklings mostly, her being stronger than them naturally doesn't mean much. Kale is her personal protege, and she's not particularly strong in base. Tells you all you need to know about the other guys she hangs around with.

The strength of her gang isn't an indication of whether she trains or not. Goku hangs around earthlings all the time. But that obviously doesn't stop him from training. Same with Vegeta.

Again, just saying that she trains would be better than just handwaving it away as "she's a prodigy".

Prodigy handwaves how she is easily able to grasp the SSJ transformation. Not whether she trains or not. It's just a very weird thing to assume when we don't do this for any other character.

Obuni didn't randomly become stronger for no particular reason. That's the issue people have with her. Caulifla did, so Obuni isn't relevant here.

Show, don't tell. It's not about being told every character trains or not; not everyone is going to accept a character unlocking new forms with established lore and rules without some justification.

It wasn't shoved in our faces that Goku and Krillin trained as kids, but we were shown an appropriate amount of training for them, so the hyperbole isn't necessary. Me asking for some justification for Caulifla's transformations isn't asking for too much. And I did say I'd settle with just a line of dialogue (which would be bad on it's own but whatever), but we don't get that. Although, her carrying around gym bags would be infinitely better than what we actually got, so...

Plenty of reasons to assume she doesn't. Again, show don't tell. If she gets power-ups, it needs proper justification. Not going to just assume something just because I want it to be true. There needs to be some sort of evidence.

Well, don't bring up her Saiyan pals as proof that she might train because they "look up" to her. None of them seem all that strong, so it wouldn't be hard to surpass them. Caulifla could just be naturally stronger than them all. No evidence that she does any training there. And we see Goku and Vegeta train. A lot. They earned their forms. If Goku showed up as a SSJ3 without mentioning his 7 years of training while dead, it would be just as egregious as Caulifla.

Well, prodigy handwaves everything really. Caulifla turns SSB out of nowhere? Prodigy. No need to explain it any further than that. What about training? Doesn't matter. Seems to just be used to shutdown criticism of her.

Plenty of people do this for other characters. People aren't too keen in characters getting free upgrades without some form of foreshadowing or proper justification.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Personally, I wouldn't mind it if DBS gave us at least some clear indication that Caulifla has even a basic training regimen. Then at least all her constant bullshit powerups would feel like they came from somewhere other than merely being free magic from Prodigy Land and her "tingly back". Christ.

[Boo Machine]

[spoiler]

Obuni didn't randomly become stronger for no particular reason. That's the issue people have with her. Caulifla did, so Obuni isn't relevant here.

It is relevant. The point wasn't that Obuni became stronger the point was that we didn't need to be told that he trains. Because it's like you said-

Show, don't tell. It's not about being told every character trains or not; not everyone is going to accept a character unlocking new forms with established lore and rules without some justification.

If you don't want the show to tell you but rather, show you, then why do you need characters to tell you verbally? The character is a hot headed Saiyan warrior, who is the leader of a gang of other saiyans, that has been SHOWN to like fighting and is SHOWN she respects power and strength from other people. What we have not been shown or told is that she is just born strong like you're assuming.

Me asking for some justification for Caulifla's transformations isn't asking for too much. And I did say I'd settle with just a line of dialogue (which would be bad on it's own but whatever), but we don't get that. Although, her carrying around gym bags would be infinitely better than what we actually got, so...

Whether you think her transformations are justifiable isn't even the issue. It's the fact that you assume a character doesn't train based on very little. And wouldn't "prodigy" be the show telling you why she can transform anyway? It's one line of dialogue from her brother. Quick question because I honestly don't know. Do they even use the word Prodigy? Because Renso just says "Her potential power is greater than my own".

Plenty of reasons to assume she doesn't.

what are those reasons? Because I apparently missed them.

Well, don't bring up her Saiyan pals as proof that she might train because they "look up" to her. None of them seem all that strong, so it wouldn't be hard to surpass them. Caulifla could just be naturally stronger than them all. No evidence that she does any training there. And we see Goku and Vegeta train. A lot. They earned their forms. If Goku showed up as a SSJ3 without mentioning his 7 years of training while dead, it would be just as egregious as Caulifla.

You missed the entire point I brought them up. Their strength doesn't matter, But it does matter that a gang of rough saiyans would follow someone like Caulifla. Because of HER strength. Which isn't dictated by who she hangs out with. Not to mention there was probably a reason her brother recommended her out of ALL the other saiyans around. If you don't want to go on the assumption that she trains then that's fine, but why go ahead and go the opposite way with even less info that says otherwise?

Plenty of people do this for other characters. People aren't too keen in characters getting free upgrades without some form of foreshadowing or proper justification.

It's not about the upgrade it's about assuming she doesn't do training because there is no evidence when we don't rail other characters in this tournament for being as strong as they are because they don't tell us about how and if they train. What about Toppo, Ribrianne, or any other universe fighter? We were never told that they train, but we're just going to assume that they're all that strong just because? I feel people are giving Caulifla a particularly hard time just because she is a saiyan and people have this idea of what a saiyan should do that they just can't let go.[/spoiler]

I'm going to go ahead and put this in spoilers just to not have giant blocks of text. This way it can be ignored if someone wants to.

[Li'l Lemmy]

I feel people are giving Caulifla a particularly hard time just because she is a saiyan and people have this idea of what a saiyan should do that they just can't let go.

They're giving her the same hard time that they give Goten and Trunks (and to a lesser extent Ultimate Gohan) for what's perceived as asspull power/transformations without equivalent work. Caulifla is hardly the first to be judged by this sort of standard.

[Boo Machine]

I feel people are giving Caulifla a particularly hard time just because she is a saiyan and people have this idea of what a saiyan should do that they just can't let go.

They're giving her the same hard time that they give Goten and Trunks (and to a lesser extent Ultimate Gohan) for what's perceived as asspull power/transformations without equivalent work. Caulifla is hardly the first to be judged by this sort of standard.

I totally believe you. I've even seen those criticisms here. I'm not trying to paint Caulifla as the poor little saiyan girl that gets picked on. I'm not even a fan of hers to begin with. Just that I find it odd people want deep explanations for Saiyans being strong, specifically, but characters like Toppo ,Ribrianne or even Hit get to just be as strong as they are with almost no arguments or questions as to why.

[Li'l Lemmy]

Hm. Well, it could be argued that we simply don't have applicable standards by which we can judge folks like Hit. They're strong because they are, and because we have no basis for comparison.

With Saiyans we have a lot to rely on.

[Boo Machine]

That makes sense. But that doesn't mean we need to see every Saiyan train all the time to believe that they are capable of certain feats. If they can fight and do martial arts, It's probably because they've been doing it for a while now, whether that be through training, sparring, or straight up fighting others as they like to do. Gohan having potential didn't mean he didn't have to work. Just that it came easier to him.

[namekiansaiyan]

What is the point of Saiyans training since they just pull their transformations or any kind of power out of thin air.

[JazzMazz]

What is the point of Saiyans training since they just pull their transformations or any kind of power out of thin air.

This is the reason why people are angry with the Universe 6 Saiyans suddenly achieving levels of power with little to no actual effort, this is also problem with future Trunks and to a lesser extent Gohan being as powerful as they are. Apparently, the only Saiyans that need to train hard to get new forms or increase in power, are Goku and Vegeta. Everyone else could simply get it by wanting it really, really hard.

[HeroR]

What is the point of Saiyans training since they just pull their transformations or any kind of power out of thin air.

This is the reason why people are angry with the Universe 6 Saiyans suddenly achieving levels of power with little to no actual effort, this is also problem with future Trunks and to a lesser extent Gohan being as powerful as they are. Apparently, the only Saiyans that need to train hard to get new forms or increase in power, are Goku and Vegeta. Everyone else could simply get it by wanting it really, really hard.

Lore wise, it was already said that tailless Saiyans were stronger than the tail Saiyans and the U6 Saiyans were naturally born tailless. That is why Goten and Trunks are so strong is because they're tailless hybrids. So people are getting mad over something that has been stated decades ago.

Also, this complaint about 'people getting stronger with no effect' when Piccolo got over 100x stronger off-scene twice.

[JazzMazz]

What is the point of Saiyans training since they just pull their transformations or any kind of power out of thin air.

This is the reason why people are angry with the Universe 6 Saiyans suddenly achieving levels of power with little to no actual effort, this is also problem with future Trunks and to a lesser extent Gohan being as powerful as they are. Apparently, the only Saiyans that need to train hard to get new forms or increase in power, are Goku and Vegeta. Everyone else could simply get it by wanting it really, really hard.

Lore wise, it was already said that tailless Saiyans were stronger than the tail Saiyans and the U6 Saiyans were naturally born tailless. That is why Goten and Trunks are so strong is because they're tailless hybrids. So people are getting mad over something that has been stated decades ago.

Also, this complaint about 'people getting stronger with no effect' when Piccolo got over 100x stronger off-scene twice.

I'm not exactly giving him a pass either, but his power-up isn't really that great. His development from Z is from being weaker than a Cell junior, to be being able to beat Super Perfect Cell, thats not as great as say 17 going from being 17, to being able to able to out-fight a current SS Goku.

Yes untailed Saiyans have more potential than Saiyans born with tails, but it was bad when they did it with Goten, and is even worse now. Making old mistakes bigger isn't good writing and only further serves to hurt the show.

[HeroR]

I'm not exactly giving him a pass either, but his power-up isn't really that great. His development from Z is from being weaker than a Cell junior, to be being able to beat Super Perfect Cell, thats not as great as say 17 going from being 17, to being able to able to out-fight a current SS Goku.

Yes untailed Saiyans have more potential than Saiyans born with tails, but it was bad when they did it with Goten, and is even worse now. Making old mistakes bigger isn't good writing and only further serves to hurt the show.

Piccolo in Super is far stronger than a Perfect Cell. A rusty Gohan in Resurrection 'F' was stronger than Piccolo in his base form. Now, a Gohan who has gotten stronger pre-88 got strangled by Piccolo as a Super Saiyan 2. Also, Piccolo was probably already at or surpassed Perfect Cell by Resurrection 'F'. So yes, he got an over 100x increase from Resurrection 'F' where a weakened base form Gohan was stronger.

17 has the advantage of being a technological cheat and with his endless energy he can train all he wants without getting tired.

And why is "Saiyans have more potential than Saiyans born with tails" bad and even if that wasn't the case, why would U6 Saiyans be bound by the same restraints as U7s Saiyans. Especially when the Saiyans we have seen so far are not as strong as Goku and Vegeta.

[JazzMazz]

I'm not exactly giving him a pass either, but his power-up isn't really that great. His development from Z is from being weaker than a Cell junior, to be being able to beat Super Perfect Cell, thats not as great as say 17 going from being 17, to being able to able to out-fight a current SS Goku.

Yes untailed Saiyans have more potential than Saiyans born with tails, but it was bad when they did it with Goten, and is even worse now. Making old mistakes bigger isn't good writing and only further serves to hurt the show.

Piccolo in Super is far stronger than a Perfect Cell. A rusty Gohan in Resurrection 'F' was stronger than Piccolo in his base form. Now, a Gohan who has gotten stronger pre-88 got strangled by Piccolo as a Super Saiyan 2. Also, Piccolo was probably already at or surpassed Perfect Cell by Resurrection 'F'. So yes, he got an over 100x increase from Resurrection 'F' where a weakened base form Gohan was stronger.

17 has the advantage of being a technological cheat and with his endless energy he can train all he wants without getting tired.

And why is "Saiyans have more potential than Saiyans born with tails" bad and even if that wasn't the case, why would U6 Saiyans be bound by the same restraints as U7s Saiyans. Especially when the Saiyans we have seen so far are not as strong as Goku and Vegeta.

What are you talking about for Piccolo's strength? A rusty Gohan, who at best was as good as he was when fought Super Perfect Cell, was weaker than Piccolo as a SS2. I say this because Gohan's ultimate form was still only as powerful as it was when he fought Super Buu. ROF powerlevels are useless and have actually regularly been ret-conned later in the series, so no, I don't count the bullshit that happened then as relevant.

I'd be more okay if the Saiyans who gained this bullshit power advantage were potrayed as pure antagonstics like Vegeta in the Saiyan arc. Having an purely antagonist opponent that surpasses forms that the heroe's took forever to achieve easily, is harder to invest in since every power up they get is easy come easy go. There is no way to invest in the characters struggle because they could easily just achieve a new form without training or any type of hardship.

Goku Black had a very similar powering up ability and was more of a threat as a villain because of it.

[HeroR]

What are you talking about for Piccolo's strength? A rusty Gohan, who at best was as good as he was when fought Super Perfect Cell, was weaker than Piccolo as a SS2. I say this because Gohan's ultimate form was still only as powerful as it was when he fought Super Buu. ROF powerlevels are useless and have actually regularly been ret-conned later in the series, so no, I don't count the bullshit that happened then as relevant.

I'd be more okay if the Saiyans who gained this bullshit power advantage were potrayed as pure antagonstics like Vegeta in the Saiyan arc. Having an purely antagonist opponent that surpasses forms that the heroe's took forever to achieve easily, is harder to invest in since every power up they get is easy come easy go. There is no way to invest in the characters struggle because they could easily just achieve a new form without training or any type of hardship.

Goku Black had a very similar powering up ability and was more of a threat as a villain because of it.

Gohan in Resurrection 'F' was stronger that what he was in the Cell Games. We know this since he was above Piccolo in his base form. Even if you don't think rusty base form Gohan was stronger, Gohan as a Super Saiyan took out Ginyu-Tagomo in two strikes. Piccolo at his arm ripped off by a weaker Tagoma and Gohan got stronger since Resurrection 'F''. Trying to dismissed Resurrection 'F' as useless is kind of crazy and you can't claim something was 'retcon' when no such acknowledgement in or out of the series. And quite frankly, this is why talking power scaling is a pain around here since users like you want to cherry-pick and throw around the word 'retcon' whenever something doesn't fit you viewpoint.

Also, Gohan would be stronger than his Cell Saga self since he has been training off and on with Piccolo for almost two years and he has gotten stronger since Resurrection 'F'. So he would be above where he was in the Cell Saga no matter how you wiggle it. And as a FYI, the show never once said that Ultimate Gohan in 88 was as strong as he was in the Buu Saga. On top of that, we saw Gohan and Piccolo spar in Episode 30 and they were about even. Now you're going to say 'Piccolo was holding back', but then you have how they trained in Episode 88 where Piccolo also held back wiped the floor with Super Saiyan Gohan. So even after Resurrection 'F', the show was implying Gohan in his base form, even after eight months of training, was even with Piccolo with Piccolo may having a slight edge.

So 'bullshit' power levels are only okay for the villains? What a double standard. And you only invested in the main characters, because they're the main characters. The U6 Saiyans have their own adventures and I am not sure why we're acting like the main cast is special outside of the fact we were stuck seeing them.

[LowRyder2005]

I'm not exactly giving him a pass either, but his power-up isn't really that great. His development from Z is from being weaker than a Cell junior, to be being able to beat Super Perfect Cell, thats not as great as say 17 going from being 17, to being able to able to out-fight a current SS Goku.

Yes untailed Saiyans have more potential than Saiyans born with tails, but it was bad when they did it with Goten, and is even worse now. Making old mistakes bigger isn't good writing and only further serves to hurt the show.

Piccolo in Super is far stronger than a Perfect Cell. A rusty Gohan in Resurrection 'F' was stronger than Piccolo in his base form. Now, a Gohan who has gotten stronger pre-88 got strangled by Piccolo as a Super Saiyan 2. Also, Piccolo was probably already at or surpassed Perfect Cell by Resurrection 'F'. So yes, he got an over 100x increase from Resurrection 'F' where a weakened base form Gohan was stronger.

17 has the advantage of being a technological cheat and with his endless energy he can train all he wants without getting tired.

And why is "Saiyans have more potential than Saiyans born with tails" bad and even if that wasn't the case, why would U6 Saiyans be bound by the same restraints as U7s Saiyans. Especially when the Saiyans we have seen so far are not as strong as Goku and Vegeta.

What are you talking about for Piccolo's strength? A rusty Gohan, who at best was as good as he was when fought Super Perfect Cell, was weaker than Piccolo as a SS2. I say this because Gohan's ultimate form was still only as powerful as it was when he fought Super Buu. ROF powerlevels are useless and have actually regularly been ret-conned later in the series, so no, I don't count the bullshit that happened then as relevant.

I'd be more okay if the Saiyans who gained this bullshit power advantage were potrayed as pure antagonstics like Vegeta in the Saiyan arc. Having an purely antagonist opponent that surpasses forms that the heroe's took forever to achieve easily, is harder to invest in since every power up they get is easy come easy go. There is no way to invest in the characters struggle because they could easily just achieve a new form without training or any type of hardship.

Goku Black had a very similar powering up ability and was more of a threat as a villain because of it.

You don't even need to go as far as retconning ROF, truthfully. As a corollary, even if we wanted to rationalize this in-universe, ROF is absolutely not as clear cut as it's been made out to be here.

Base Gohan does a grand total of being kicked around by a still unconcerned Tagoma a few seconds more than Piccolo with the foe lamenting how weak Gohan is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNrdNzkoFLo), nobody acknowledging Gohan's strength as standing a chance. Also, this happens after everyone is more or less tired because of their fight against the Freeza's army, and the weighted Piccolo might've simply used up more energy than Gohan. There's nothing there that puts him above Piccolo.

The most that's said is the goons believing Gohan is the most dangerous of the bunch, but it's not the first time we'd have a character somehow apparently discerning someone else's full power either (Goku, Dabra and Babidi). Or they might even be sensing the same marvelous energy that Gohan states he can't really output because of the lack of traininig. Base Gohan outperformed Piccolo as much base Goku outperformed SSB Vegeta against Hit.
All in all, while being a minor headscratcher to some, the feat certainly doesn't warrant automatically extreme and, honestly, absurd assumptions like Piccolo needing to quickly and silently become hundreds of times stronger off-panel in order for the plot to work.

[HeroR]

You don't even need to go as far as retconning ROF, truthfully. As a corollary, even if we wanted to rationalize this in-universe, ROF is absolutely not as clear cut as it's been made out to be here.

Base Gohan does a grand total of being kicked around by a still unconcerned Tagoma a few seconds more than Piccolo with the foe lamenting how weak Gohan is (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNrdNzkoFLo), nobody acknowledging Gohan's strength as standing a chance. Also, this happens after everyone is more or less tired because of their fight against the Freeza's army, and the weighted Piccolo might've simply used more energy than Gohan. There's nothing there that puts him above Piccolo.

The most that it's said is people thinking Gohan is the most dangerous of the bunch, but it's not the first time we'd have a character somehow apparently discerning someone else's full power either (Goku, Dabra and Babidi). Or they might even be sensing the same marvelous energy that Gohan states he can't really output because of the lack of traininig. Base Gohan outperformed Piccolo as much base Goku outperformed SSB Vegeta against Hit.
All in all, while being a headscratcher to some, certainly doesn't warrant automatically extreme and, honestly, absurd assumptions like Piccolo needing to quickly and silently become hundreds of times stronger off-panel in order for the plot to work.

He still did overall better than Piccolo. So even if the margin is small, base form Gohan was above or equal to Piccolo. Also, Freeza, Tagamo, and Ginyu all acknowledge Gohan as being the strongest despite seeing Piccolo fight. While you can guess if Tagamo knows what he's talking about, Ginyu is very good at guessing someone's power even without sensing ki. He got closed to guess Goku's true power on Namek, outside of the Kaioken. Freeza outright can sense ki, so he should know if Piccolo was above Gohan, especially when he didn't know Gohan could become a Super Saiyan. Also, the fight with Freeza's soldiers is nowhere near as taxing to the Z-Fighters as the movie since they haven't been fighting that long.

Again, Freeza can sense ki, so he would know where Gohan compared to Piccolo and Ginyu was able to gauge where Goku's true power was on Namek, he thought Goku was at 80,000, so he was only 10,000 off the mark. Also, if it was only skill, Piccolo would be the most dangerous since he isn't rusty like Gohan.

Using Hit is an error since Hit was purposely holding back so he wouldn't kill Goku and he didn't take Goku seriously. This is in contrast to Tagamo, Ginyu, and Freeza who did take Gohan serious, Tagamo to the point that he killed his own comrade to wipe Gohan out.

The fact remains, Piccolo did get around one-hundred times stronger off scene since even if you say Piccolo was equal or stronger to base form Gohan in Resurrection 'F', he went from that to being able to strangle Super Saiyan 2 Gohan who gets a 100x boost from base. And Gohan himself is stronger than what he was in Resurrection 'F' since he trained with Piccolo for eight months between the Resurrection 'F' and the Champa Saga and Gohan himself said he got stronger in Episode 80 when he told Goku to watched how strong he has become.

With that, I will end the power discussion here since it is off-topic and I feel like I'm beating my head against the wall.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

So apparently the ToP climax will be Goku vs. Jiren, right? Because I hoped for something less predictable (this fight is being hyped since new opening debut), like one of the shadowed figures in U2 to be the real threat in this tournament maybe.

Start of the climax, not specifically the climax... don't give up hope! I think either we will have something re: Angels after the ToP or the mortal stronger than a GoD will show up near the end. Jiren and Goku being the complete end game of the arc is too obvious.