Super Episode 113 (29 October 2017)

[Cabba]

SS3 Looking Z baddass was the highlight of this episode for me, i never expected SS3 looking this good on Super
[spoiler]



[/spoiler]

[HeroR]

In another series I might agree, but this is the Dragon Ball franchise. The entirety of DBZ has shown that no amount of skill can overcome an overwhelming difference in power. Piccolo and Krillin employed similar tactics against Nappa as Goku did against Caulifla this episode, but they sure as hell didn't do anywhere near as well. Vegeta is a Saiyan elite, born and bred in battle, yet he got absolutely destroyed by 18, a genetically modified human with zero practical battle experience. Perfect Cell had the DNA of every single Z-fighter, including their techniques, battle styles and fighting knowledge. Despite this, he couldn't do a thing to SSJ2 Gohan. Skill can overcome power if the difference is small, but power trumps skill in large enough amounts. That was very clearly established.

So yes, Goku is the better fighter. The difference between a fatigued base Goku and SSJ2 Caulifla should be too large for that to matter, though.

Oh I know perfectly well What Z did. I just don't care. It was dumb and it's the reason so many fighters except for the Saiyan characters, who can yell their numbers bigger, get left behind. If Super want's to ignore all that then go for it. Let Krillin beat someone on SSJ level with smarts, skills, and creativity. I'd rather that then the constant escalation until the meme of Gohan having to go Blanco and beat the almighty Grande Padre, the gods of gods of gods of gods of angels of gods, becomes reality.

If it's inconsistent then it's the one Inconsistency I hope they keep making. Power levels can get fucked. I get no joy from watching fighters constantly tank hits because numbers.

I might be exaggerating a bit. Obviously I'd want an ideal spot of both Power levels and Skills and abilites to be balanced out. What I don't want is the balance to go into either extreme.

If the different is big enough, no amount of skill can save you you, see Jiren and Beerus. I also think people are going overboard since Goku was eventually forced to used Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 against Cali since he couldn't keep up in just base form after awhile, so I don't see why this is an issue.

[HeroR]

Hopefully whoever wrote this episode comes back for the next, because it's the first time I had absolutely no problem with Kale or Caulifla, well aside from the obvious asking an enemy to train you in a fight for universal survival, but Goku is weird enough to go along with it so more power to them. Caulifla's problem was just her poor introduction. If only they'd established that Cabba had already taught some U6 Saiyans including the girls just after the U6/U7 tourney then this 48 hour miracle that Caulifla and Kale are pulling wouldn't seem like utter BS and bad writing, but it's easy to see that they have been writing her a lot better since her first two or three appearances. When I saw that she struggled to retransform into SSJ2 about ten episodes ago, I hated her a little less. After 113, I don't think it's accurate to call her a Mary Sue, but you could before and wouldn't be wrong.

Didn't Uub also do this while he was fighting Goku?

Yes, it called evolving through fighting and we have seen it several times in Super already with Hit, Black, and even Goku with Super Saiyan God and UI.

Okay, I'll need a little elaboration here, why is base Goku handling a Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla that much of an issue? People have made a big deal that skills and tactics should take precedence over basic and straightforward brute force, now that Super's finally delivered on that .....it's an issue? I'm sorry, but I just don't get it; if anything I hope Super takes this mindset more often in the future. Caulifla's strong but she's an incredibly basic "strike-first-hit-second" fighter, with Goku's big advantage being his experience in battling I figured it naturally made sense he'd be able to out-maneuver the second time around. This is the one fight Caulifla's unanimously written as not a Mary Sue, I figured that's what most of us wanted?

I find it weird that people are still calling Cali a Sue when she had trouble with base form Goku until she stopped fighting like a thug and Whis even called her a street fighter and not a martial artists. She was also at best even with Goku even when she started to get her act together and Goku was still able to handle both her and Kale at the same time. Most of all, she didn't get Super Saiyan 3 that people complained about for a week.

Yet, she's still a Sue, I guess because she didn't get his ass beating into the ground, got praised for Goku for her growth (which he does for almost everyone), and because 'she still arrogant'.

One of my favorite personal moments in the episode is Cali saying that she wanted Super Saiyan 3 not only for its power, but because Hit and Cabba were knocked out and she could do nothing about it and how she wanted to take up their burden. Which shows that through her arrogance, there is a underline desire to help her team and universe.

Even in her introduction, she wouldn't have been a Sue since her getting Super Saiyan fast was already done by several characters. Goten and Trunks did it first, and Cabba got Super Saiyan fairly easily if you considered how Goku got it. Kale also had a Super Saiyan form that she had no control of, making her more dangerous than useful.

So she's not a Sue since she broke no rules when she became a Super Saiyan.

[Boo Machine]

If the different is big enough, no amount of skill can save you you, see Jiren and Beerus.

You're not wrong. That's what I mean about balance though. It's fine if it's sometimes or in special cases, but I don't want it being a hard rule for everybody.

I wouldn't be ok with Tien beating Jiren into a puddle, but I would be ok with him beating someone who is perhaps SSJ level. Maybe a little higher depending on the situation and on what Tien does to do this.

Or a better example of what I mean would be this episode.

[BWri]

Thought I'd end up skipping this one, since I dislike the U6 Saiyans and how the writers have been using Goku but I actually liked Goku a lot in this one. I love his character most when he's the underdog and this episode even gave a brief glimpse of pure martial artist Goku. Seeing Goku use tricky techniques really made me miss that aspect of his fighting style. If only I could get more of this Goku. I also actually liked Kale and Caulifla in this one, and while not a huge fan of modern Saiyans or Saiyan transformations, I was pretty hyped up throughout this fight. Logic was good, power scaling made since, choreography was good, and I liked the character interactions like that unexpected dialogue between an intense Krillin and Shin. Great episode.

You get skill martial artist Goku fairly often in DB (in Super more so than most of Z). The next episode even has him bringing back ki blasts from his feet again.

True, except for the Frieza and Cell fights. He displayed loads of martial arts tactics in those. Can't wait for those feet ki blasts tho

[Cabba]

If the different is big enough, no amount of skill can save you you, see Jiren and Beerus. I also think people are going overboard since Goku was eventually forced to used Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 against Cali since he couldn't keep up in just base form after awhile, so I don't see why this is an issue.

Its not, just goes to show Gokus superiority as a fighter
It also points to his base form being strong enough to take hits from Cauli SS2 and whats more exchange hits

What i think gets fucked is peoples constant need for multipliers

[HeroR]

If the different is big enough, no amount of skill can save you you, see Jiren and Beerus.

You're not wrong. That's what I mean about balance though. It's fine if it's sometimes or in special cases, but I don't want it being a hard rule for everybody.

I wouldn't be ok with Tien beating Jiren into a puddle, but I would be ok with him beating someone who is perhaps SSJ level. Maybe a little higher depending on the situation and on what Tien does to do this.

Or a better example of what I mean would be this episode.

This episode had a nice balance, imo, since although Goku was able to hold Cali in his base form with skill, it became apparent fairly early that he couldn't keep doing it since Cali was getting better and even managed to feint Goku.

If the different is big enough, no amount of skill can save you you, see Jiren and Beerus. I also think people are going overboard since Goku was eventually forced to used Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 against Cali since he couldn't keep up in just base form after awhile, so I don't see why this is an issue.

Its not, just goes to show Gokus superiority as a fighter
It also points to his base form being strong enough to take hits from Cauli SS2 and whats more exchange hits

What i think gets fucked is peoples constant need for multipliers

Cali wasn't going all out on base Goku since she clearly power-up in the middle of the fight to match Goku. I didn't think she wanted to win based purely on power.

[BWri]

So she's not a Sue since she broke no rules when she became a Super Saiyan.

If she stopped at SSJ1 then sure, you could use previous BS to justify her BS (which I wouldn't if I were trying to do her character justice), but she took that further and basically became SSJ2 from a random muscle spasm like a sneeze. That's just ... bad. Not even Goten and Trunks have SSJ2, Cabba just unlocked it after his (pretty dumb) emotional breakthrough. Cabba even initially learned it the same way everyone in U7 learned it, but Caulifla our SPECIAL girl gets a brand new explanation so she can learn SSJ in an EXTRA SPECIAL way and then immediately makes it her plaything, far surpassing Cabba than getting SSJ2 oh so casually. Only reason I tolerate her now is because it was a fluke, but you have to admit that's a bad intro for a character.

[Tombstone1988]

Except we have already seen in Super skill beating pure strength with Roshi and Genos. Piccolo also almost beat Frost despite the power different.

We have no indication for how much stronger Ganos was than Roshi, only that he was, in fact, stronger. The difference may not have been that large for all we know, especially if we are referring to before Ganos transformed. Roshi also ultimately won by pouring his life energy into a Kamehameha Wave; I'm not sure that's the finest example of "skill besting strength." In addition, I'm not sure that scenario is comparable to a fatigued base Goku winning against a SSJ2 Caulifla.

Yes, it called evolving through fighting and we have seen it several times in Super already with Hit, Black, and even Goku with Super Saiyan God and UI.

Goku's forms are a little different. As for Uub, Hit, Black, and Caulifla, you can give it whatever label you want. It's still lazy writing in my opinion.

Oh I know perfectly well What Z did. I just don't care. It was dumb and it's the reason so many fighters except for the Saiyan characters, who can yell their numbers bigger, get left behind. If Super want's to ignore all that then go for it. Let Krillin beat someone on SSJ level with smarts, skills, and creativity. I'd rather that then the constant escalation until the meme of Gohan having to go Blanco and beat the almighty Grande Padre, the gods of gods of gods of gods of angels of gods, becomes reality.

If it's inconsistent then it's the one Inconsistency I hope they keep making. Power levels can get fucked. I get no joy from watching fighters constantly tank hits because numbers.

I might be exaggerating a bit. Obviously I'd want an ideal spot of both Power levels and Skills and abilites to be balanced out. What I don't want is the balance to go into either extreme. The balance tipping into the power level extreme one too many times is what caused all this shit in the first place.

Fair enough, I respect your opinion. I'd personally also like them to find a better balance between skill and power. I just don't feel this instance was that. Goku was stated to be fatigued and was in his base. Caulifla was SSJ2, which is widely regarded as 100 times stronger than base. Her base form easily knocked away three foes that fatigued Goku was struggling with. It just doesn't all add up to me.

[Ziegander]

The problem for me is Super can't make up it's mind, and as a result, it's a horrendously inconsistent show. They've ran the gamut now from absolutely destroying the power scale by making fighters so obscenely powerful it doesn't even make sense (RoF) to casually calling it irrelevant (Roshi/this episode). And they constantly waffle back and forth on whether SSJ/SSJ2 is a tier of power, or if it is a multiplier over one's base form. I would have preferred to see power scaling gradually phased out myself, but this herky jerky back and forth, indecision on the writers' part has me stuck in a constant state of whiplash. Will they, won't they? Is power scaling still relevant or is it gone? I feel like I never know. As soon as I think power scaling is irrelevant they do stuff like bring back SSG and have Goku use all of his SSJ forms on Jiren just to scale him out. Then, once they've convinced me power scaling is something I need to pay attention to they have base Vegeta wreck Ribrianne like she's fodder and have tired base Goku pose a significant challenge to fully-recovered SSJ2 Caulifla. I don't know where any of the characters actually stand anymore, which isn't actually as much of a problem as I also don't know where the writing team stands on how they are actually presenting where their characters stand...

[Super Saiyan Swagger]

Fun episode. I really enjoyed the action in it. Super Saiyan 3 hasn’t looked that good in a while.

[OverHeaven]

SSJ3 blue-shirt Goku was easily the best moment of the episode.
Also, Kale looks beautiful in her normal Super Saiyan form. For once, she looks like an adult woman.

[KingKaash]

I enjoyed the episode. Right when it was about to go next level and get really good, it ended. I wish this episode was an hour long. A few throwbacks in there too for some nice nostalgia:

1) SSJ3 with that same badass look like when Goku first showed it to Buu
2) Goku training Caulifla just like he trained Uub
3) Kale's transformation matching Broly's again with the color change

The Whis explanations are important once again. It shows that Caulifla and Kale are just street brawlers in their Universe 6 and not trained martial artist, therefore having loads of power is not much of a use if you don't combine it with analysis and strategy while fighting. This is shown when SSJ2 Caulifla fights base Goku. But of course Caulifla has massive potential so she picks up on Goku's ways extremely quickly. I'm personally happy to see Caulifla blossom onscreen instead of walking in super powerful like Jiren and us fans all wondering how they got to that level of strength without any backstory. And teacher Goku is probably my favorite Goku after serious Goku.

I do wonder if Goku is tricking Caulifla or will later explain to Caulifla that SSJ3 is extremely strong but also drains a lot of energy. The line by Goku of Caulifla going "beyond SSJ3" was also interesting and could be hinting at SSJ4

Also does Kale seem to grow taller when she goes SSJ? It looks like it to me. Plus I'm happy Kale is included and she's no longer getting jealous. Positive growth for her character

[spoiler]The Caulifla + Kale looks nice! I hope it's SSJB level power and therefore I hope she goes after Jiren, for Hit's sake[/spoiler]

[Hasaki]

SS3 Looking Z baddass was the highlight of this episode for me, i never expected SS3 looking this good on Super
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[/spoiler]

Indeed, took the liberty to combine 2 of them into one picture
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[SuperHumanGod]

Despite the non-stop action, this was by far the weakest episode of the ToP arc for me, so far.
Perhaps due to me having no interest in the saiyan girls or maybe it was just dull. I hope the fusion leads somewhere and keeps their power between SSJ3 and SSJB.

[Rip the Jacker]

I that ssj3 shot was awesome. I wish it could stay goku exclusive. Man Caulifla is going to take a lot of work to become a likable character. With these new characters, they're just writing out members of the original cast and giving their personality traits and roles to new characters. Lazy writing imo. Caulifla is Videl 2.0. She has no reason to exist in the story. Kale and Cabe actually bring something to the table, but Caulifla... smh. I hope they can actually develop her to be something remotely interested other than just a replacement for a member of the original cast.

[chickensguys]

I really hated this episode. All the drama seemed fake and only 1 minute passed in the entire episode. All I want to see is Vegeta fight Toppo.

[HeroR]

If she stopped at SSJ1 then sure, you could use previous BS to justify her BS (which I wouldn't if I were trying to do her character justice), but she took that further and basically became SSJ2 from a random muscle spasm like a sneeze. That's just ... bad. Not even Goten and Trunks have SSJ2, Cabba just unlocked it after his (pretty dumb) emotional breakthrough. Cabba even initially learned it the same way everyone in U7 learned it, but Caulifla our SPECIAL girl gets a brand new explanation so she can learn SSJ in an EXTRA SPECIAL way and then immediately makes it her plaything, far surpassing Cabba than getting SSJ2 oh so casually. Only reason I tolerate her now is because it was a fluke, but you have to admit that's a bad intro for a character.

She got Super Saiyan 2 to deflect a blast from Super Saiyan Berserk Kale that was aimed at Cabba, not "random muscle spasm like a sneeze". Cali is also much stronger than Goten and Trunks and probably fights more than those two as well. Cabba seems to transformed through emotions like Gohan. Vegeta and Goku just got Super Saiyan 2 off-scene.

She didn't learn Super Saiyan in an 'extra special' way. She just skipped anger and went to step 2, which is pretty much what Trunks and Goten did.

That wasn't a bad intro, unless you're that butt hurt about her not getting angry to get Super Saiyan, which was never a rule once Goten and Trunks broke it, on top of all Super Saiyan forms in the manga being off-scene after Goku.

[mAcChaos]

Anyone complaining about base Goku is wrong. Base Goku absorbed Super Saiyan God, so his base is now stronger than all SSJ3 from the Buu Saga.

That's right, Base Goku can OHKO Perfect Cell now.

And that's before he puts SSJ on top of it.

[Forte224]

It was pretty fun to watch, the animation was good. But if Caulifla ends up getting SS3 during the tournament I'll be sad. So many years of training to achieve those transformations would seem so valueless now.

Also, this really isn't the fight I care about. It's Vegeta vs Toppo. And I really hope we get to see a good fight between them.