Lapislettuce wrote:
"Goku wasn't fighting" pretty sure he was. he got overpowered.
He wasn't. Read the chapter, he doesn't fight back. He just defends himself
You're acting like Goku was just hanging there having fun with one hand when Goku clearly looked worried the whole time. 17 pushed him back twice and ssj3 Goku decided to end the fight. this wasn't Goku "toying" i hear this excuse all the time when people want to lowball a character.
You're overly defensive and putting words in my mouth because you have some agenda to defend 17. You're twisting things that happened in the chapter.
I'm telling you the facts. The battle didn't have 17 being stronger than SS3 Goku, and it didn't have SS3 Goku being stronger than 17. It was inconclusive. It wasn't really even a fight. Goku defended himself from 17's sudden assault, then ended the fight when 17 got too serious.
I haven't read the chapter after a translation, but it really just looks like Goku is earnestly defending himself from #17. He doesn't fight back, he doesn't get "overpowered", more that as he powers up he seems more and more surprised that #17 us keeping up with him. Then he ends the fight before things get really out of hand.
Is it stated anywhere that 17 is using his full power? If not, him trading blows with god level opponents later means the fandom has to point the finger at themselves.
Drellz26 wrote:I don’t even care if 17 is stronger than SS3, this is so much better than Goku going straight to blue for their fight. It works so much better than “Oops, Blue wasn’t necessary but I was excited” or whatever he anime reasoning was.
17 is stronger than everyone except Goku, Frieza, Gohan, Vegeta but still not god level. Way easier to understand that THIS way.
Goku did go Blue against Krillin? So Krillin is blue level? He was just testing them against blue/awesomeness and fear. Thats a logical decision. For the stake of the universe, the anime did better. What the anime did, will prepare the fighters better. Like it or not.
And btw when was the last time Goku won a fight in the manga, jesuss. And ssj3 is again nothing but shit.
Yeah because I think this way is better means I don’t understand the anime at all. Sorry for calling the decision illogical.
Miracles wrote:Is it stated anywhere that 17 is using his full power? If not, him trading blows with god level opponents later means the fandom has to point the finger at themselves.
There's a huge gap between ss3 and god level. This is not the anime where literally ssblue = everyone's level
Zamasu55 wrote:I don't think it's going to happen, but I wish Toyo makes Gohan and Piccolo train in the RoSaT. And honestly Tienshinhan and Krillin could do that to, but this is definitely not happening anyway.
I was thinking the same thing when Piccolo asked for Senzu Beans, him taking Gohan into the Time Chamber, to whip him back into shape would be the most logical thing to do, the universes have less than 40 hours to prepare, but universe 7 has a convenient plot device that allows them to get a year of preparation time, Piccolo, Gohan, Tien, Krillin, 18 and Roshi should use it, that way any power gains they make would have a reasonable explanation. Another fun idea is reintroducing the Super God Water and having some of the team drink it.
Miracles wrote:Is it stated anywhere that 17 is using his full power? If not, him trading blows with god level opponents later means the fandom has to point the finger at themselves.
There's a huge gap between ss3 and god level. This is not the anime where literally ssblue = everyone's level
We still don't know if 17 can reach that gap. Based on Toriyama's statement about his potential and TOEI confirming him being that strong cause of Toriyama, we can't be surprised.
Last edited by Miracles on Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
It doesn't make sense that 17 knew the voice and the aspect of Goku to be inside Cell. When 18 wakes up in the God's Palace she is surprised that Gohan defeated Cell, which means that being inside Cell couldn't be aware of what was happening outside.
Nor does it make sense for Dende to know about Oob. In the tournament of the end of the original manga, when Piccolo says that the battle of Goku and Oob will be the most interesting Dende is surprised, he doesn't know why that battle should be the most interesting, because Dende doesn't know who Oob is.
DBS keeps changing the Oob thing. First the anime did it with Vegeta knowing about Oob somehow. Then they did it again with Dende knowing. Toriyama must've forgotten exactly who remembers Oob, and probably thought it makes sense that Dende knows since he's god.
I always thought it was silly that Piccolo knew but Dende, the actual god, didn't know
HECTOR4 wrote:It doesn't make sense that 17 knew the voice and the aspect of Goku to be inside Cell. When 18 wakes up in the God's Palace she is surprised that Gohan defeated Cell, which means that being inside Cell couldn't be aware of what was happening outside.
There is nothing wrong with being surprised that a kid defeated a monster even if she did see some of the fight. "He actually did it, amazing.." is a pretty common reaction in DB after defeating a big bad regardless if someone is or isnt OP. And 18's reaction was right after she woke up from being unconscious/punched out of Cell. 17 had >10 years to process what happened.
HECTOR4 wrote:
Nor does it make sense for Dende to know about Oob. In the tournament of the end of the original manga, when Piccolo says that the battle of Goku and Oob will be the most interesting Dende is surprised, he doesn't know why that battle should be the most interesting, because Dende doesn't know who Oob is.
This can also be interpreted as him being surprised that Uub might keep up with Goku, him being Godly level and all
HECTOR4 wrote:It doesn't make sense that 17 knew the voice and the aspect of Goku to be inside Cell. When 18 wakes up in the God's Palace she is surprised that Gohan defeated Cell, which means that being inside Cell couldn't be aware of what was happening outside.
18 wasn't even in Cell when Gohan beat him though.
dragon boss z wrote:
18 wasn't even in Cell when Gohan beat him though.
He's saying that 18 should've automatically figured out and accepted the fact that a kid beat Cell, and not be surprised about it, because she was inside Cell (before getting punched out) and witnessed some of the action. Regardless of all the confusion and stress.
dragon boss z wrote:
18 wasn't even in Cell when Gohan beat him though.
He's saying that 18 should've automatically figured out and accepted the fact that a kid beat Cell, and not be surprised about it, because she was inside Cell (before getting punched out) and witnessed some of the action. Regardless of all the confusion and stress.
Ya well that may be a problem, but it isn't like an out right contradiction. Though I think the listening from inside Cell is weird myself.
Didn't 17 mentioned hearing goku's voice after a long time
in buu saga?
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
dragon boss z wrote:
18 wasn't even in Cell when Gohan beat him though.
He's saying that 18 should've automatically figured out and accepted the fact that a kid beat Cell, and not be surprised about it, because she was inside Cell (before getting punched out) and witnessed some of the action. Regardless of all the confusion and stress.
Ya well that may be a problem, but it isn't like an out right contradiction. Though I think the listening from inside Cell is weird myself.
Exactly, 18 was inside Cell when he was receiving a beating from Gohan. 18 should know obligatory that Gohan was very strong and that he was winning to Cell, who was destroying him with each blow. It doesn't make sense to be surprised that Gohan finally beat him. It's totally contradictory and makes 17's explanation meaningless.
For Toriyama the androids couldn't see what was happening from inside Cell. Toyotaro has not understood that and has invented something that supposes a greater incoherence than the plot hole that was before. Gero spied the warriors of the Earth with his Micro Spy Robo, it was easier and more logical to invent that Gero had taught them some recording about Goku, for example.
mute_proxy wrote:This can also be interpreted as him being surprised that Uub might keep up with Goku, him being Godly level and all
Not in the context in which they present it to you, with the other characters assuming that Goku will win the battle because they don't know who Oob is. That vignette and that Dende reaction are placed there to make us understand that Piccolo does sense who Oob is, but Dende doesn't know.
HECTOR4 wrote:
For Toriyama the androids couldn't see what was happening from inside Cell. Toyotaro has not understood that and has invented something that supposes a greater incoherence than the plot hole that was before. Gero spied the warriors of the Earth with his Micro Spy Robo, it was easier and more logical to invent that Gero had taught them some recording about Goku, for example.
And 17 saying "I haven't heard that voice in a while" in Buu saga when he's never met Goku?
HECTOR4 wrote:
For Toriyama the androids couldn't see what was happening from inside Cell. Toyotaro has not understood that and has invented something that supposes a greater incoherence than the plot hole that was before. Gero spied the warriors of the Earth with his Micro Spy Robo, it was easier and more logical to invent that Gero had taught them some recording about Goku, for example.
And 17 saying "I haven't heard that voice in a while" in Buu saga when he's never met Goku?
It still makes sense. 17 and 18 were programmed to kill Goku, I wouldn't be surprised if they went through some kind of conditioning that involved them hearing Goku's voice to make them able to further identify him.
HECTOR4 wrote:
For Toriyama the androids couldn't see what was happening from inside Cell. Toyotaro has not understood that and has invented something that supposes a greater incoherence than the plot hole that was before. Gero spied the warriors of the Earth with his Micro Spy Robo, it was easier and more logical to invent that Gero had taught them some recording about Goku, for example.
And 17 saying "I haven't heard that voice in a while" in Buu saga when he's never met Goku?
It still makes sense. 17 and 18 were programmed to kill Goku, I wouldn't be surprised if they went through some kind of conditioning that involved them hearing Goku's voice to make them able to further identify him.
So creating an extra complex backstory is more believable than 18 being surprised a kid killed a monster. Gotcha.
mute_proxy wrote:
And 17 saying "I haven't heard that voice in a while" in Buu saga when he's never met Goku?
It still makes sense. 17 and 18 were programmed to kill Goku, I wouldn't be surprised if they went through some kind of conditioning that involved them hearing Goku's voice to make them able to further identify him.
So creating an extra complex backstory is more believable than 18 being surprised a kid killed a monster. Gotcha.
Um, its not that complex, Android 16 had loads of crap on Goku, and we're expected 17 and 18 to not have similar information?
The manga explanation is Super freaking contrived. How the hell are you aware of whats happening to your surroundings, to the point you can hear and identify someones voice, when in your someones stomach, and not only that, obviously reduced in size somehow in order to compensate for the smaller frame of the being who ingested you. That makes way more sense then saying they were programmed with some inheirent information about Goku like the model down of you is.
I think it makes more sense that 18 didn't have any idea what was happening after they were absorbed, that way, when she came to, on top of Dende's tower, should would have geniune reason to be clueless about the events that transpired, rather than somehow magically being able to recall what happening inside someones STOMACH!
