How do you feel about Super making Vegeta the secondary protagonist (as opposed to Gohan in Z)?

[dbgtFO]

I can't edit my post so here's the correct link:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/

Let me guess, you're on mobile, right?
If so, turn the phone sideways and the edit button will pop up.

[Kanious]

This is insanely hypocritical (you yourself even state you're biased).

Super did tease that Gohan would get a new transformation. They did nothing with it.

Meanwhile they gave Vegeta all these asspulls.

Super is just a show. It's not like it is a documentary based on real events. The same way they "wrote" Vegeta as a main character, they could've and should've done the same for Gohan. There is no "real logic" to any of it. It's an anime. Super could've been anything. The fact it became so Vegeta centric was awful and a major turn off for me. The Super pro-Vegeta bias was easily the worst thing about Super for me

Super teased MANY TIMES that Caulifla and Kale would gain Super Saiyan 3 and they didn't got it . Super teased a round 3 of Goku vs Hit and it didn't happened. Super teased a lot of things... and there was only one single short line about Gohan saying that he wanted to achieve a transformation that no one ever saw before.. it wasn't even implied that he would get it in ToP... so i don't get how fans got hyper for that single 2 second line made only one time

Yes, i'm biased towards Vegeta, but Vegeta is an experienced fighter, he trained his entire life, while Gohan trained for maybe 4-5 days in the last 14 dragon ball years including the whole Buu's arc. Vegeta trained with gods, so it is natural that he is the protagonist alongside Goku.

And about Z... Let's see: on Saiyan arc, Bulma, Krilin and Piccolo got a lot of screen time, and were supporting characters... Gohan did the same thing. He was more important than the other characters for being directly related to Goku.

On Androids/Cell's arc Gohan wasn't that important for the most part of it, then he shined a lot. On Buu's arc, he shined in the "slice of life" beginning, and when he got his power unlocked in the farting/dancing/porn magazine reading ritual, but in that same arc Trunks and Goten also shined a lot. This is why i don't think that Gohan was on the same level of Goku in Z, except in some specific parts of the series.

Anyway, i would be ok with Gohan having more importance in Super if he trained in Z after Cell's arc, then trained with Whis and Beerus in Super, but he didn't, so i'm glad that Gohan was kept out of Super for the most part. I'm ok with Trunks "powerups" because his world was a hell, and he fought his entire life, he didn't enjoyed peace like Gohan, and this is why i'm ok with his "protagonism" on Zamasu's arc.

Anyway, i don't think that Super is "Vegeta"-centric. Is just that he is the one who deserves to be by Goku's side, and also he is far more popular than Gohan, and for marketing purposes to cast Vegeta out of the scene probably would be very bad. We saw this on GT.

Also, Gohan had his big shine in Cell's arc when he defeated the major villain, while Vegeta never did that even on Super. Maybe Toppo is the only BIG character that he defeated, and even so, it isn't the final boss.

[Kagari]

This is insanely hypocritical (you yourself even state you're biased).

Super did tease that Gohan would get a new transformation. They did nothing with it.

Meanwhile they gave Vegeta all these asspulls.

Super is just a show. It's not like it is a documentary based on real events. The same way they "wrote" Vegeta as a main character, they could've and should've done the same for Gohan. There is no "real logic" to any of it. It's an anime. Super could've been anything. The fact it became so Vegeta centric was awful and a major turn off for me. The Super pro-Vegeta bias was easily the worst thing about Super for me

Super teased MANY TIMES that Caulifla and Kale would gain Super Saiyan 3 and they didn't got it . Super teased a round 3 of Goku vs Hit and it didn't happened. Super teased a lot of things... and there was only one single short line about Gohan saying that he wanted to achieve a transformation that no one ever saw before.. it wasn't even implied that he would get it in ToP... so i don't get how fans got hyper for that single 2 second line made only one time

Yes, i'm biased towards Vegeta, but Vegeta is an experienced fighter, he trained his entire life, while Gohan trained for maybe 4-5 days in the last 14 dragon ball years including the whole Buu's arc. Vegeta trained with gods, so it is natural that he is the protagonist alongside Goku.

And about Z... Let's see: on Saiyan arc, Bulma, Krilin and Piccolo got a lot of screen time, and were supporting characters... Gohan did the same thing. He was more important than the other characters for being directly related to Goku.

On Androids/Cell's arc Gohan wasn't that important for the most part of it, then he shined a lot. On Buu's arc, he shined in the "slice of life" beginning, and when he got his power unlocked in the farting/dancing/porn magazine reading ritual, but in that same arc Trunks and Goten also shined a lot. This is why i don't think that Gohan was on the same level of Goku in Z, except in some specific parts of the series.

Anyway, i would be ok with Gohan having more importance in Super if he trained in Z after Cell's arc, then trained with Whis and Beerus in Super, but he didn't, so i'm glad that Gohan was kept out of Super for the most part. I'm ok with Trunks "powerups" because his world was a hell, and he fought his entire life, he didn't enjoyed peace like Gohan, and this is why i'm ok with his "protagonism" on Zamasu's arc.

Anyway, i don't think that Super is "Vegeta"-centric. Is just that he is the one who deserves to be by Goku's side, and also he is far more popular than Gohan, and for marketing purposes to cast Vegeta out of the scene probably would be very bad. We saw this on GT.

Also, Gohan had his big shine in Cell's arc when he defeated the major villain, while Vegeta never did that even on Super. Maybe Toppo is the only BIG character that he defeated, and even so, it isn't the final boss.

No he doesn't. Characters don't "deserve" things. Not sure where this narrative even comes from.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

i NEVER saw Gohan as a major character at all [i saw Gohan as a supporting character, like Bulma, Krilin and others], so... i never noticed this [maybe because i hate Gohan and i love Vegeta?]. Anyway, i like how Super made Gohan consistent, stopped giving him nonsensical powerups out of nowhere, and gave Vegeta major character development.

This is insanely hypocritical (you yourself even state you're biased).

Super did tease that Gohan would get a new transformation. They did nothing with it.

Meanwhile they gave Vegeta all these asspulls.

Super is just a show. It's not like it is a documentary based on real events. The same way they "wrote" Vegeta as a main character, they could've and should've done the same for Gohan. There is no "real logic" to any of it. It's an anime. Super could've been anything. The fact it became so Vegeta centric was awful and a major turn off for me. The Super pro-Vegeta bias was easily the worst thing about Super for me

As opposed to what? Gohan not get asspulls throughout the series? His damn potential getting unlocked 13,000 times? Some character he barely knows dies and he suddenly surpasses SS or sitting down for a few hours to only become mega strong. Why pick on Vegeta?

Also they didn't tease Gohan getting a new form at all. He said he didn't want to the god Ki route of his Dad and he would find his own way, that doesn't mean he is suddenly gonna get a new form this arc especially when a few hours later the ToP. BoG where SSG was teased throughout that was the promise of a new form for Goku not like this where Gohan said he'd find another way, what if Gohan couldn't find away?

[Kanious]

No he doesn't. Characters don't "deserve" things. Not sure where this narrative even comes from.

change the word "deserves" to FITS. At least for me, Vegeta fits the place which he is, not Gohan. This using "anime logic". If this doesn't matter for you, we can talk about popularity, marketing. and Toriyama's own reasons for putting Gohan on sidelines.

Concluding my part in this discussion... And Vegeta never defeated a "final boss", and Super did miss a chance of making Vegeta do this for the first time, while Trunks did that in Super, and Gohan in Z.

[OhHiRenan]

Part of me loves it because Vegeta is one of my favorite characters, but another part of me hates it because Vegeta has one of the best character arcs in the original series and Super regresses him a bit. Vegeta accepting Goku as number 1 is one of my favorite moments in the original manga. It’s a touching, humbling moment. Super acts like that never happened, though, which is a shame.

A Vegeta who’s already come to terms with his rivalry would have been more compelling to watch than a Vegeta who’s acting like he never did.

[TekTheNinja]

Actually they had all three of them and more be relevant in Z. In Super, it's actually just Goku and Vegeta, which is boring and their current characters don't develop or learn anything and simply make the same mistakes over and over again. Static protagonists suck.

[Michsi]

Gohan losing his status doesn't bother me as much as Vegeta being pushed to the forefront for all the wrong reasons. I get that he is a beloved character and he is part of the reason Z got to be as popular as it was, but damn does this "rivalry" feel so incredibly forced. Or rather it feels perfunctory instead of natural. Like Vegeta's reply two episodes ago to Goku "Don't tell me what to do". The retort was so cliché and overused.

[Lionel]

To me, and I know this opinion is not the preferred one by any means, Vegeta represents that occlusion in a well oiled machine where the cogs start to slow down until eventually they stop working altogether. Dragon Ball had a progressive cycle of introduction, utilisation, and then a gradual phasing out process when it came to its rivals. It was like that throughout DB and the early part of DBZ. Vegeta is the one outlier in all of this because he's managed to cling to notoriety through all the dampering and ascending scale of conflict. If the intention is to renovate the formula by giving long term commitment to the deuteragonist then that's fine. In fact, I would even encourage it because it provides for more dynamics in the story. At the same time, you open yourself up to criticism because now fans are going to be questioning why only this character is being given a lifeline and not others; they have their own crowds of fans who would like to see them receive the same diligent involvement in the plot as Vegeta received.

[Lord Beerus]

Was Gohan ever even the secondary protagonist to begin with? Because from my perspective, he always seemed to be part of the ensemble cast.

[Michsi]

Was Gohan ever even the secondary protagonist to begin with? Because from my perspective, he always seemed to be part of the ensemble cast.

He kinda was a full-time protagonist in the first half of the Buu Saga (or more accurately, the Saiyaman mini arc ) which is a title no other character got. That, and that he was Goku's son and the one to defeat the previous enemy, puts him a level or two above the rest of the cast. I mean, Z's second opening very clearly paints him as the lead.

[Kanious]

Actually they had all three of them and more be relevant in Z. In Super, it's actually just Goku and Vegeta, which is boring and their current characters don't develop or learn anything and simply make the same mistakes over and over again. Static protagonists suck.

but for the last 40 episodes DBS hasn't been all about Goku and Vegeta. Look at #17.

[Lord Beerus]

Was Gohan ever even the secondary protagonist to begin with? Because from my perspective, he always seemed to be part of the ensemble cast.

He kinda was a full-time protagonist in the first half of the Buu Saga (or more accurately, the Saiyaman mini arc ) which is a title no other character got. That, and that he was Goku's son and the one to defeat the previous enemy, puts him a level or two above the rest of the cast. I mean, Z's second opening very clearly paints him as the lead.

Eh. Even in the Great Saiyaman portion, he shares the spotlight with Videl half of the time. And when Kaioshin and Kibito are introduced, it just becomes an ensemble cast again.

[precita]

Was Gohan ever even the secondary protagonist to begin with? Because from my perspective, he always seemed to be part of the ensemble cast.

Gohan is literally treated like a lead in every saga, the only time of the series he doesn't do much is the early/mid portions of the Cell arc.

You also have to remember Goku spent large portions of DBZ doing absolutely nothing or out of the picture. Unlike Super, DBZ actually cycled off screentime to everyone. You can't say Gohan didn't feel like a main character when Goku spent a large chunk of the Saiyan, Namek, Cell and even the early/mid Buu arcs doing absolutely nothing or being off-screen with little focus.

[Akyon]

Like many have said already; the Goku and Vegeta 'rivalry' feels forced as hell. The moment Goku busted out Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan Blue was the moment Vegeta didn't really have a chance.

To be honest both Gohan and Vegeta could really benefit as the 'secondary protagonist' if they had something like Goku did; a unique ability ontop of their transformations that made them entertaining to watch and stand out from under Goku's shadow. Whilst Goku is the strongest fighter, he also has tricky moves such as the Instant Transmission, and yes; Kaio Ken which allow him to make pushes past his limits.

Vegeta, and indeed Gohan, has only really got strength and it's usually not even as strong as Goku's, rendering them pale imitations from a purely aesthetic side of things. Whilst they do have personalities which bounce off well from Goku's(they're both a lot smarter), genuinely neither are as interesting to watch throw down as say Piccolo, Android 17, Buu, Frieza, or indeed any of the humans with their quirky attacks and weird unique abilities that can offer something different from ki ball barrages, hoping to knock their opponents down with pure power and diet versions of Goku's most basic abilities.

Hell, I like Gohan as a character(I wish they did more with that supposed intelligence of his; using his studies to amplify his abilities would be kind of unique), and when he's not regressing into a cliffnotes version of himself, Vegeta can be interesting, but I'll be damned if they aren't boring to watch fight in their current states, and NO; Royal Blue Vegeta doesn't make him suddenly unique, it's just another lazy Super Saiyan transformation to half ass explain why he can suddenly keep up again rather than coming up with something clever or unique strategies allowing him to gain the upperhand.

[BigBangAttack]

I'm quite satisfied and happy with Vegeta's position, and indeed, wouldn't mind seeing him be the 'hero' of an arc or two.

That said, I don't think you can really say that Vegeta wasn't always important - he's been 'the Rival' for the longest time (even though it's been rather one-sided, considering Goku is either one step ahead, or doesn't get phased by Vegeta's advancements given his demeanor of being excited by stronger opponents. Hell, the only time I ever see Goku actually acting competitive with Vegeta is when it's something trivial or petty.) I mean, come the end of the Buu arc, he was the only other normal fighter aside from Goku left standing (this was before Buu became one of the mains.)

Gohan has sort of found his niche I think, and I don't think he'll ever again be 'the strongest character.' From a notional perspective, he has the 'highest' potential, but as is, he's been almost entirely outclassed by Goku and Vegeta. I'm fine with that - I didn't like the possibility of Gohan inheriting the importance of Goku in a manner that makes it seem as if destiny or whatever runs in the Son family line (i.e., they'll always be the most powerful.)

[BigBangAttack]

Part of me loves it because Vegeta is one of my favorite characters, but another part of me hates it because Vegeta has one of the best character arcs in the original series and Super regresses him a bit. Vegeta accepting Goku as number 1 is one of my favorite moments in the original manga. It’s a touching, humbling moment. Super acts like that never happened, though, which is a shame.

A Vegeta who’s already come to terms with his rivalry would have been more compelling to watch than a Vegeta who’s acting like he never did.

I've personally never thought that Vegeta would (or should) permanently accept Goku as being stronger or better as a warrior than he is. To me, that would be out of character.

I think a Vegeta who accepts that Goku isn't defined by his status at birth or social class, but is capable of being strong and mighty, even stronger than Vegeta if he keeps up with his training, is more realistic and better - Vegeta drops the assumption and arrogance in his inherent superiority based on class alone, and learns to accept that a persons only limits are the one they themselves place. In fact, Goku was born with little skill or talent compared to Vegeta, and Vegeta is learning that talent alone doesn't equate to skill or greatness, as Goku proves.

I think (and it can be interpreted this way, I feel,) that Vegeta is recognizing a purity in Goku that he lacks, an insatiable desire to grow that Vegeta knows that he can never truly overcome entirely, and uses it as a model to achieve his own power. I would say that he also sees Goku as being a better person in character in many aspects (particularly in that part of the story.)

I suppose you could say that Vegeta has come to terms with his rivalry, but it still doesn't diminish his desire to be the mightiest and strongest. He just knows now that it isn't 'owed' to him any longer.

[GohanHiddenPowers]

Was Gohan ever even the secondary protagonist to begin with? Because from my perspective, he always seemed to be part of the ensemble cast.

He kinda was a full-time protagonist in the first half of the Buu Saga (or more accurately, the Saiyaman mini arc ) which is a title no other character got. That, and that he was Goku's son and the one to defeat the previous enemy, puts him a level or two above the rest of the cast. I mean, Z's second opening very clearly paints him as the lead.

Since the first episode, Gohan, as the firstborn, was introduced like the mini-Goku, as i said in another thread:

[spoiler]

"Mini-Goku is an Overprotected Boy! I Am Gohan." / "The Arrival of Raditz" [The New Threat]
"Mini Gokū wa Obotchama! Boku Gohan Desu." (ミニ悟空はおぼっちゃま！ボク悟飯です。)

And then... we have DBS 124, only one arc of fighting, after 291 episodes, 13 movies, 2 ovas. Like i said some comments above, i will never understand, while watching this anime as a whole, why a character like Gohan was outlasted by Freeza and 17. I have no problem to say that in this Dragon Ball franchise, a fighter like Gohan is more important when the producers allow him to explore his powers, his potential. People like to say he has to deserve power. But since day one Gohan was "the error in the system", like Neo from Matrix. Even after the Grand Elder from Namek awakened his powers (before the Old Kaioshin), Gohan was always known for awakening powers during his fights, even when he had no training at all (Garlic Jr - yeah it's an ova -, Saiyans, Raditz, Freeza, etc). And when he trains, he is, at least, on par with Goku and Vegeta, if not above. Yeah, if he trained just a little in the rosat, or with Whis, he could do wonders, taking into account his potential. But we always have future arcs to hope for something better for characters we like... whoever, Gohan or not... if we have another series after Dragon Ball Super Ep.131, of course.

[/spoiler]

[spoiler]

[/spoiler]

The first DBZ openning was about Goku and Gohan leading a group of characters and their shinning moments, the first ending is mostly about the little Gohan walking on a giant ball, for 199 episodes. From episode 200 to episode 291, we have the second opening which is Gohan being more proeminent that the rest, and the second ending is him walking, walking, running, to look back at the end, with a final frame where we see a feather from Goku's angel wings. DBZ is the king, DB is the bishop, and DBS is the 3rd or 4th in the line of succession, because DBS, just like DBGT, brought new concepts to the franchise, new transformations... but had bad choices regarding the relevance of characters, including Gohan.

To sum it up, Vegeta has a good arc when we talk about the anime trope of "going from villain to anti-hero", has his rivalry spirit (sometimes out of place)... but Gohan is the hero's son, someone with whom a large part of the fandom grew up watching, during the most famous phase of the franchise, which is and always will be Dragon Ball Z. The only character who have had some sort of importance, being a hybrid, was Future Trunks, but not like Gohan.

[Jigurashi]

Don't care much either way as I am generall uninterested with both characters.

Like many have said already; the Goku and Vegeta 'rivalry' feels forced as hell. The moment Goku busted out Kaioken on top of Super Saiyan Blue was the moment Vegeta didn't really have a chance.

To be honest both Gohan and Vegeta could really benefit as the 'secondary protagonist' if they had something like Goku did; a unique ability ontop of their transformations that made them entertaining to watch and stand out from under Goku's shadow. Whilst Goku is the strongest fighter, he also has tricky moves such as the Instant Transmission, and yes; Kaio Ken which allow him to make pushes past his limits.

Vegeta, and indeed Gohan, has only really got strength and it's usually not even as strong as Goku's, rendering them pale imitations from a purely aesthetic side of things. Whilst they do have personalities which bounce off well from Goku's(they're both a lot smarter), genuinely neither are as interesting to watch throw down as say Piccolo, Android 17, Buu, Frieza, or indeed any of the humans with their quirky attacks and weird unique abilities that can offer something different from ki ball barrages, hoping to knock their opponents down with pure power and diet versions of Goku's most basic abilities.

Hell, I like Gohan as a character(I wish they did more with that supposed intelligence of his; using his studies to amplify his abilities would be kind of unique), and when he's not regressing into a cliffnotes version of himself, Vegeta can be interesting, but I'll be damned if they aren't boring to watch fight in their current states, and NO; Royal Blue Vegeta doesn't make him suddenly unique, it's just another lazy Super Saiyan transformation to half ass explain why he can suddenly keep up again rather than coming up with something clever or unique strategies allowing him to gain the upperhand.

I agree with this. Gohan and Vegeta are quite boring to watch fight for me.

[precita]

How do people stay interested in Dragonball if they don't like Vegeta/Gohan anymore? I find it rather difficult. I like Piccolo, Krillin, etc. but they hardly get any screentime anymore so I can't get excited over them outside the few eps that focus on them.