IMO, the biggest problem with ToP in the anime

[Zephyr]

Why did they do this?

For whatever reason, Super's anime just really loved to drag things out. Kind of ironic, considering the rushed ending it looks it's leaving itself room for. And as brought up in this thread, there are too many writers. It's unlikely that they're on the same page, and if they are, then they're doing a really terrible job of showing it. Moreover, unlike Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, they didn't have an ongoing manga to serve as the overarching narrative skeleton. Bullet points are no substitute. Toriyama didn't create the Dragon Ball story by writing bullet points, he drew that shit, making it up as he went along, and it evolved in front of his very eyes, week by week, over the course of ten years.

The anime's version of the Tournament of Power, in particular, is plagued by a lot of issues. The most jarring one to me is the pacing. We're getting a minute per episode, on average. That's ridiculous. Imagine if the manga has only a minute pass with each chapter.

So in other words the Manga isn't building towards anything? How is that remotely better? Regardless of what you think the anime didn't pay off what it built it still built something to intrigue you. The Manga is some boring fluff, no interactions no nothing so when all the other universes come there's nothing to give a shit about. Relationships between the likes of Goku and Hit non existent, hell the relationship with the U6/7 is already paper thin in the Manga.

How is the manga not building toward anything? Ultra Instinct is still going to happen. It was set up before the manga or the anime began, and I think it's quite intriguing, regardless of the medium. Jiren, the primary antagonist of the arc, is receiving actual set up in the manga, complete with character motivations. Caulifla and Kale are still set up as very gifted, without it being too overhanded, and without immediately spoiling the surprise of Kale's transformation (if it's indeed going to be a thing in the manga). The fact that Goku and Freeza are shown to arrive having squabbled already sets up that Freeza being on the Universe 7 team is going to be a source of tension between teammates.

Using the word "fluff" to describe the manga is odd. The manga is an inarguably more succinct telling of Toriyama's bullet points than the anime, which, in contrast, seems compelled to meander in telling its version of the story in every way imaginable. Not only is this an odd criticism, but it's an entirely misplaced one at that.

Many folks love to dump on the manga for throwbacks and references to older Dragon Ball material (which has become more silly than it already was, given all of the throwbacks to older Dragon Ball material that the anime has been doing in this arc), but the anime can't seem to help but give throwbacks and references to itself. It retreads plot points and story beats all the time, erring on the side of absolute redundancy. You don't see anything like Krillin regaining his confidence twice in under ten episodes, or Vegeta having to have three motivational inspirational monologues in the span of five episodes, in the manga. Freeza gets knocked out one episode; next episode he gets back up and just gets knocked out again. I was immediately reminded of that episode of Namek arc filler where Goku is presumed dead, Gohan comes back and fights Freeza, Goku is revealed to still be alive, and Gohan leaves again. What was the point? To pad, to draw things out, to add hollow fluff that only acts as a detriment to a story involving a fight against both a powerful opponent and the clock.

And forget power levels: remember, this entire battle royale is supposed to have taken place within the span of 48 minutes; the number of times characters have "run out of stamina", only to power back up to their maximum, within that incredibly cramped time space, absolutely shatters suspension of disbelief. And hell, I can't remember how many fake-out "Oh no, Freeza is betraying us! Again!" moments we've already had here. Though I'll give the anime this: barring the excess of fake-out betrayals, Freeza's probably been the most interesting part of this arc in the anime, really coming into his own as both a martial artist and a team player. Disappointed that the manga seemingly isn't setting him up for the same thing.

The anime indeed builds things up; but since it delivers on almost none of it, that build up is a complete waste of time; and since a lot of that, if paid off, could have been in service of some incredible poignancy and character development, it's also a complete waste of potential. The whole "battle for survival" thing could have been a great source of internal conflict for a lot of these guys, throughout the whole ordeal. Instead all we get is Gohan look somberly at the portrait of Obuni's family, and a tiny exchange between Toppo and #17 about both protecting their universes. It's all fleeting, and clearly not the focus.

This also could have been a great source of internal conflict for the viewer, were they invested in all of the different sides of what is essentially a fight to the death. We didn't need to see Goku struggle to convince all of his friends to fight with him. We didn't need to spend the majority of our recruitment time with characters whose survival is the only foregone conclusion of this arc. Yet, that's what we got, and a lot of characters whose setup would have provided legitimate tension didn't receive it. Showing Obuni with his family during the recruitment, rather than Murichim posing for a GodTube video, would have made Universe 10's erasure pack more of a punch. Dr. Paparoni turned out to be a pretty big threat, so it would have been cool to get to know him a bit prior to the tournament, instead we got to know a couple of mooks. Everyone they showed in Universes 4 and 9 just seemed to be a bunch of assholes. The anime had the time and space for prepping the viewers to have internal conflict of their own regarding who to root for in the tournament, but making it actually compelling apparently wasn't a priority. In all fairness, a lot of this does appear to apply to the manga, but the manga's lack of establishing compelling tension didn't take nearly as much time. The anime was dragging its feet constantly. The manga pretty much did all it could in the (probably too brief) time it took to build up to the tournament, while the anime could have done so much more in the time it took.

Vegeta's new form is also a fun bit to poke at. Like Trunks in the arc prior, we see a new form, with no build up, no explanation, and no clear or distinct criteria for acquisition. What's the point of it? Vegeta's been training with Whis, same as Goku, so we know he's more than likely going to get Ultra Instinct by the end of this tournament. This form could be removed, and absolutely nothing about the actual narrative would change. Vegeta could still be angry that Cabba is gone, still have the resolve to revive him, still flail aimlessly at Jiren, and still survive a previously fatal attack, without this new form, and it would still be 100% coherent. The form adds nothing of substance, it's pure fluff.

Neither version is perfect. But if we're talking about fluff, Toyotaro's version of this arc so far (and Super in general) is like Toriyama's cornish rex:
[spoiler]Look at those silly skin folds.
[/spoiler]
Toei's version of this arc (and Super in general), on the other hand, is fluffier than Colonel Meow:
[spoiler]And he was a pretty fluffy guy. RIP.
[/spoiler]
Overall, the anime version is simply poorly thought out and poorly structured. The craftsmanship of the narrative is absolutely amateurish, and there's no way that the assembly-line nature of its creation, with too many cooks in the kitchen, isn't a large contributing factor. You're free to be bored by it all you want, but the manga is a more clearly-structured story, is more to the point, and is far more clear in the things it builds up to. It might be more "fun", and more "epic", and more "entertaining", and have more "interactions", but none of those are constitutive of, or sufficient substitutes for, a structurally sound narrative.

You could reply that the anime not delivering on things it sets up, and delivering for things it didn't set up, is "Toriyama-ish" because it's subverting all of these expectations, but the dude actually has a natural talent for executing expectation-subversion gracefully. The notion that any of Super's individual writers have the same storytelling chops that Toriyama does is dubious at best, and the notion that they do collectively is demonstrably untrue. Rather than invoking Toriyama's style, at best it feels like a really sloppy attempt at copying the meal without studying the recipe.

[supersaiyanZero]

Why did they do this?

For whatever reason, Super's anime just really loved to drag things out. Kind of ironic, considering the rushed ending it looks it's leaving itself room for. And as brought up in this thread, there are too many writers. It's unlikely that they're on the same page, and if they are, then they're doing a really terrible job of showing it. Moreover, unlike Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z, they didn't have an ongoing manga to serve as the overarching narrative skeleton. Bullet points are no substitute. Toriyama didn't create the Dragon Ball story by writing bullet points, he drew that shit, making it up as he went along, and it evolved in front of his very eyes, week by week, over the course of ten years.

The anime's version of the Tournament of Power, in particular, is plagued by a lot of issues. The most jarring one to me is the pacing. We're getting a minute per episode, on average. That's ridiculous. Imagine if the manga has only a minute pass with each chapter.

So in other words the Manga isn't building towards anything? How is that remotely better? Regardless of what you think the anime didn't pay off what it built it still built something to intrigue you. The Manga is some boring fluff, no interactions no nothing so when all the other universes come there's nothing to give a shit about. Relationships between the likes of Goku and Hit non existent, hell the relationship with the U6/7 is already paper thin in the Manga.

How is the manga not building toward anything? Ultra Instinct is still going to happen. It was set up before the manga or the anime began, and I think it's quite intriguing, regardless of the medium. Jiren, the primary antagonist of the arc, is receiving actual set up in the manga, complete with character motivations. Caulifla and Kale are still set up as very gifted, without it being too overhanded, and without immediately spoiling the surprise of Kale's transformation (if it's indeed going to be a thing in the manga). The fact that Goku and Freeza are shown to arrive having squabbled already sets up that Freeza being on the Universe 7 team is going to be a source of tension between teammates.

Using the word "fluff" to describe the manga is odd. The manga is an inarguably more succinct telling of Toriyama's bullet points than the anime, which, in contrast, seems compelled to meander in telling its version of the story in every way imaginable. Not only is this an odd criticism, but it's an entirely misplaced one at that.

Many folks love to dump on the manga for throwbacks and references to older Dragon Ball material (which has become more silly than it already was, given all of the throwbacks to older Dragon Ball material that the anime has been doing in this arc), but the anime can't seem to help but give throwbacks and references to itself. It retreads plot points and story beats all the time, erring on the side of absolute redundancy. You don't see anything like Krillin regaining his confidence twice in under ten episodes, or Vegeta having to have three motivational inspirational monologues in the span of five episodes, in the manga. Freeza gets knocked out one episode; next episode he gets back up and just gets knocked out again. I was immediately reminded of that episode of Namek arc filler where Goku is presumed dead, Gohan comes back and fights Freeza, Goku is revealed to still be alive, and Gohan leaves again. What was the point? To pad, to draw things out, to add hollow fluff that only acts as a detriment to a story involving a fight against both a powerful opponent and the clock.

And forget power levels: remember, this entire battle royale is supposed to have taken place within the span of 48 minutes; the number of times characters have "run out of stamina", only to power back up to their maximum, within that incredibly cramped time space, absolutely shatters suspension of disbelief. And hell, I can't remember how many fake-out "Oh no, Freeza is betraying us! Again!" moments we've already had here. Though I'll give the anime this: barring the excess of fake-out betrayals, Freeza's probably been the most interesting part of this arc in the anime, really coming into his own as both a martial artist and a team player. Disappointed that the manga seemingly isn't setting him up for the same thing.

The anime indeed builds things up; but since it delivers on almost none of it, that build up is a complete waste of time; and since a lot of that, if paid off, could have been in service of some incredible poignancy and character development, it's also a complete waste of potential. The whole "battle for survival" thing could have been a great source of internal conflict for a lot of these guys, throughout the whole ordeal. Instead all we get is Gohan look somberly at the portrait of Obuni's family, and a tiny exchange between Toppo and #17 about both protecting their universes. It's all fleeting, and clearly not the focus.

This also could have been a great source of internal conflict for the viewer, were they invested in all of the different sides of what is essentially a fight to the death. We didn't need to see Goku struggle to convince all of his friends to fight with him. We didn't need to spend the majority of our recruitment time with characters whose survival is the only foregone conclusion of this arc. Yet, that's what we got, and a lot of characters whose setup would have provided legitimate tension didn't receive it. Showing Obuni with his family during the recruitment, rather than Murichim posing for a GodTube video, would have made Universe 10's erasure pack more of a punch. Dr. Paparoni turned out to be a pretty big threat, so it would have been cool to get to know him a bit prior to the tournament, instead we got to know a couple of mooks. Everyone they showed in Universes 4 and 9 just seemed to be a bunch of assholes. The anime had the time and space for prepping the viewers to have internal conflict of their own regarding who to root for in the tournament, but making it actually compelling apparently wasn't a priority. In all fairness, a lot of this does appear to apply to the manga, but the manga's lack of establishing compelling tension didn't take nearly as much time. The anime was dragging its feet constantly. The manga pretty much did all it could in the (probably too brief) time it took to build up to the tournament, while the anime could have done so much more in the time it took.

Vegeta's new form is also a fun bit to poke at. Like Trunks in the arc prior, we see a new form, with no build up, no explanation, and no clear or distinct criteria for acquisition. What's the point of it? Vegeta's been training with Whis, same as Goku, so we know he's more than likely going to get Ultra Instinct by the end of this tournament. This form could be removed, and absolutely nothing about the actual narrative would change. Vegeta could still be angry that Cabba is gone, still have the resolve to revive him, still flail aimlessly at Jiren, and still survive a previously fatal attack, without this new form, and it would still be 100% coherent. The form adds nothing of substance, it's pure fluff.

Neither version is perfect. But if we're talking about fluff, Toyotaro's version of this arc so far (and Super in general) is like Toriyama's cornish rex:
[spoiler]Look at those silly skin folds.
[/spoiler]
Toei's version of this arc (and Super in general), on the other hand, is fluffier than Colonel Meow:
[spoiler]And he was a pretty fluffy guy. RIP.
[/spoiler]
Overall, the anime version is simply poorly thought out and poorly structured. The craftsmanship of the narrative is absolutely amateurish, and there's no way that the assembly-line nature of its creation, with too many cooks in the kitchen, isn't a large contributing factor. You're free to be bored by it all you want, but the manga is a more clearly-structured story, is more to the point, and is far more clear in the things it builds up to. It might be more "fun", and more "epic", and more "entertaining", and have more "interactions", but none of those are constitutive of, or sufficient substitutes for, a structurally sound narrative.

You could reply that the anime not delivering on things it sets up, and delivering for things it didn't set up, is "Toriyama-ish" because it's subverting all of these expectations, but the dude actually has a natural talent for executing expectation-subversion gracefully. The notion that any of Super's individual writers have the same storytelling chops that Toriyama does is dubious at best, and the notion that they do collectively is demonstrably untrue. Rather than invoking Toriyama's style, at best it feels like a really sloppy attempt at copying the meal without studying the recipe.

this is the best post here outlining the glaring problems with Super. I'm glad they're are fans out there seeing the same thing and not willing to just eat up whatever garbage Toei puts out with the Dragonball name slapped on it.

[Rebel Instinct]

/snip (Wow...)

This may seem like an odd request, but can I sig your whole reply? It's one of the most solid breakdowns I've seen of Super as a whole in recent memory. I'd love to keep it around for posterity.

[ekrolo2]

You could reply that the anime not delivering on things it sets up, and delivering for things it didn't set up, is "Toriyama-ish" because it's subverting all of these expectations, but the dude actually has a natural talent for executing expectation-subversion gracefully. The notion that any of Super's individual writers have the same storytelling chops that Toriyama does is dubious at best, and the notion that they do collectively is demonstrably untrue. Rather than invoking Toriyama's style, at best it feels like a really sloppy attempt at copying the meal without studying the recipe.

You raise a lot of good points but the subversive defense I feel needs the most addressing. As Hail Zeon once put it, if Toei and Toriyama announced say the 2018 movie along with a big event where people could arrive to hear the exciting first details of it, then Toriyama came out on stage and pissed on everyone and said "That's the announcement folks!", that would be shocking and subversive too, it would also be a total waste of time for everybody involved.

I feel like people are just using the subverting expectations argument to try and pass off what's clearly very messy writing. Never mind the fact that subverting expectations is just like any other narrative device: it's not inherently good or bad, it's how you use it. Just like how there's examples of good character development, there exist bad one's too, character development for the sake of itself isn't by default good as Vegeta's 20 speeches about how prideful he is and how he wants to protect his nakama in the past few episodes can attest.

Never mind the fact that Super is, in fact, a mess. Meaning that it's really hard to argue for purposefully subverting of expectations when it's far more likely various writters are just doing their own thing at the same time and hoping to God they don't trip over one another. Honestly, it's amazing Super doesn't feel even more disjointed then it already is.

[Cetra]

1. Majin Boo taking part in the Tournament Of Power
2. Goahn achieving a new form that had never been seen before.
3. Caulfila attaining SSJ3

I cannot even blame them because 2. and 3. were still up to us in thinking what they meant as they never really said these things in the most obvious form or promising that those things will happen on day 23435435. Boo being in the tournament was a Toriyama-thing. Gohan's power can be understood as the typical "I'll reach new heights" stuff, not necessarily that in the tournament itself he will transform but simply that he will have his own way of progressing and incomparable power. And Caulifla is the same case as Cabba with SSJ Blue. It is listening to a lecture. It does not mean "you need to achieve this now", rather than "there, this exists. don't give up. keep on training."

[Zephyr]

Thanks for the kind words, guys! Means a lot.

/snip (Wow...)

This may seem like an odd request, but can I sig your whole reply? It's one of the most solid breakdowns I've seen of Super as a whole in recent memory. I'd love to keep it around for posterity.

I know that long signatures are generally discouraged, but you're more than welcome to take out your favorite bit or link to it.

this is the best post here outlining the glaring problems with Super. I'm glad they're are fans out there seeing the same thing and not willing to just eat up whatever garbage Toei puts out with the Dragonball name slapped on it.

Well now that I'm home from work and re-reading it, I've noticed some mistakes and bits of awkward phrasing that I can't go back and edit anymore. Tis the struggle!

But I'm not that special. I may have a gift for organizing and framing observations, but I can't claim to be the progenitor of all of them. A lot of these points are problems others have had that I hadn't initially noticed (but were airtight upon reflection), and others are the result of just conversing and bullshitting with people. That paraphrased (and ultimately) collective deconstruction wouldn't have been possible without folks like Cipher, Gaffer Tape, Mozilla Vulpix, Makaioshin, infermon, and others pointing things out that I may not have noticed, and/or discussing this stuff with me causing me to realize things. Definitely look at what they have to say on this stuff as well, if you want more thoughtful, substantive, well-placed criticism of Super, that isn't the standard character cheerleading, hard-line power-scale fetishism, and buzzword-tossing shtick that seems to dominate social media nowadays.

I feel like people are just using the subverting expectations argument to try and pass off what's clearly very messy writing. Never mind the fact that subverting expectations is just like any other narrative device: it's not inherently good or bad, it's how you use it.

Agreed. Toriyama certainly subverted expectations a lot, for all kinds of different reasons, some of it accidental, and some of it deliberate I'm sure...but the dude has a legitimate talent for making good use of it, I'd say most of the time.

Toriyama's new Dragon Ball story, that started with Battle of Gods, certainly subverted my own long-held expectations for what a new story after Buu would entail: Recolor god forms? Freeza's back again? A multiverse tournament? Evil Goku? All silly blatant fanfiction nonsense! We expected better from you Akira, you hack! You were supposed to overwrite GT, and have Pan and Uub take over as the protagonists!

But instead, we get an interesting story about Goku and Vegeta attaining mushin under the tutelage of a cornish rex and an angel, between the battle with Majin Buu and the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. Along the way, we see the more long-term negative consequences of Trunks' selflessness, we see a different universe's Kaioshin-in-training go rogue, we see Freeza turn into something of a martial artist, and we get a little more light shed on why Goku ditches the tournament to train Uub. Given everything we know about the production behind the scenes each step of the way, it's unlikely this broad overall narrative was in any way planned by Toriyama since 2013. Rather, it seems made up as it was created, step by step. Look at each film or arc as a chapter unto itself, to better see what I mean.

I wasn't expecting any of those broad strokes, and I think that the subversion on this layer was great. However, I also wasn't expecting it to play out this way, with horribly inconsistent and sluggish writing (in the weekly TV anime, at least), ass character designs (not what Toriyama is doing, but how Yamamuro is translating it for the anime), and bland music; this layer of the subversion is not so great. I sincerely believe that if Toriyama was drawing it himself, and if the weekly TV anime was based off of that manga, that my praises would greatly outweigh my complaints.

[Rebel Instinct]

/snip (Wow...)

This may seem like an odd request, but can I sig your whole reply? It's one of the most solid breakdowns I've seen of Super as a whole in recent memory. I'd love to keep it around for posterity.

I know that long signatures are generally discouraged, but you're more than welcome to take out your favorite bit or link to it.

Good point. I was thinking of putting the whole thing behind a spoiler tag, but I think I'll just borrow a more concise snippet instead. Thanks!

Thanks for the kind words, guys! Means a lot.

No, thank you! It's always a pleasure to read your comments. Well thought out, detailed and fair - a damn sight better than all the petty bickering that's all too common these days. Often enough, you put my own thoughts and feelings into words far better than I could myself. It's cathartic.

[ekrolo2]

Agreed. Toriyama certainly subverted expectations a lot, for all kinds of different reasons, some of it accidental, and some of it deliberate I'm sure...but the dude has a legitimate talent for making good use of it, I'd say most of the time.

Toriyama's new Dragon Ball story, that started with Battle of Gods, certainly subverted my own long-held expectations for what a new story after Buu would entail: Recolor god forms? Freeza's back again? A multiverse tournament? Evil Goku? All silly blatant fanfiction nonsense! We expected better from you Akira, you hack! You were supposed to overwrite GT, and have Pan and Uub take over as the protagonists!

But instead, we get an interesting story about Goku and Vegeta attaining mushin under the tutelage of a cornish rex and an angel, between the battle with Majin Buu and the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai. Along the way, we see the more long-term negative consequences of Trunks' selflessness, we see a different universe's Kaioshin-in-training go rogue, we see Freeza turn into something of a martial artist, and we get a little more light shed on why Goku ditches the tournament to train Uub. Given everything we know about the production behind the scenes each step of the way, it's unlikely this broad overall narrative was in any way planned by Toriyama since 2013. Rather, it seems made up as it was created, step by step. Look at each film or arc as a chapter unto itself, to better see what I mean.

I wasn't expecting any of those broad strokes, and I think that the subversion on this layer was great. However, I also wasn't expecting it to play out this way, with horribly inconsistent and sluggish writing (in the weekly TV anime, at least), ass character designs (not what Toriyama is doing, but how Yamamuro is translating it for the anime), and bland music; this layer of the subversion is not so great. I sincerely believe that if Toriyama was drawing it himself, and if the weekly TV anime was based on that manga, that my praises would greatly outweigh my complaints.

Ehh, I don't think Toriyama making another manga to serve as a basis would fix a lot of things, it might improve the structure but a LOT of things Super and GT are accused of come as a consequence of writing that Toriyama himself laid the groundwork for in the Cell and Boo arcs.

[kemuri07]

The problem with Super is the exact issue GT: After Z where do you go from here?

I think GT initially going back to the franchises roots was an acknowledgement by Toei that it would be difficult to continue the adventures of characters who all could easily destroy planets . on paper, I think GT wasn't that bad of an idea. It just proved to be a mess because the show didn't have Toriyama at the helm. Super goes in the exact opposite direction, having Goku and CO fight even stronger characters and it the show does fall victim to issues that were already apparent towards the end of Z. When characters are so stupid strong, there's nothing really at stake anymore.

[TheZFighter]

I've really enjoyed the Tournament of Power. There's been lots of stuff I've really enjoyed, moments and characters, etc, but I think they've been far too ambitious really.

[Avenant]

I've really enjoyed the Tournament of Power. There's been lots of stuff I've really enjoyed, moments and characters, etc, but I think they've been far too ambitious really.

I agree. I've really enjoyed it despite their too-ambitious storytelling. Perhaps they didn't realize they would end it so soon until it was too late to tie it all up neatly. Or they could have just written it this way to begin with. Either way, I've enjoyed it. I never set my expectations too high.

But to say that the Manga is just fluff is ridiculous. I don't agree with the idea that the Manga is the secondary companion piece. Just because the Anime is ahead doesn't give it precedence over the Manga. If anything, for me, the Manga is the authority when all is said and done.

[Jord]

The biggest problem with ToP is that they promised a Royal Rumble but instead we only see 1 on 1 or 2 on 2 matches for 90% of the time with no other participants in sight even though everyone was supposed to be fighting at once.

[Shaqazooloo]

Damn! from the sound of it, I REALLY need to check out the manga. The ToP has been so frustrating to me because a lot of things just feel like they lead to nowhere land.

The bit with Krillin (my favorite Character) pissed me off so much because essentially they wasted my time dedicating 3 episodes of character development and build up to him only for it to amount to a smelly shoe.

Honestly, I much rather they hadn't shown him, so going into the tournament I wouldn't expect anything. If a character isnt going to really be doing anything noteworthy in an arc, then don't waste my time dedicating screen-time to them and making them seen more important (this also applies to Gohan) when they aren't.

[Zephyr]

Ehh, I don't think Toriyama making another manga to serve as a basis would fix a lot of things, it might improve the structure but a LOT of things Super and GT are accused of come as a consequence of writing that Toriyama himself laid the groundwork for in the Cell and Boo arcs.

I mean, again, I think the best thing about Super is the broad overarching narrative, which is essentially the result of Toriyama's bullet points, evolving arc by arc. They represent a macrocosm of Toriyama's "making stuff up as he goes along" creative process, on a chapter-to-chapter basis. Unfortunately, though, also again, he's an illustrator, not a writer, so he's not able to take full use of his talent in order to tell this story the way he would by his own hand.

I do think that the Cell and Buu arcs are the manga's weakest by a long shot, but I think part of the reason that they have the flaws they do is simple fatigue. They're both at the ass-end of a long unending run for the series. Regardless, I think they're both miles better than either GT or Super. Which writing decisions in particular from the manga do you think enabled GT and Super's writing mistakes?

[The gr]

Damn! from the sound of it, I REALLY need to check out the manga. The ToP has been so frustrating to me because a lot of things just feel like they lead to nowhere land.

You should totally check it out on viz,it starts in 27 and IMO they handled the recruitment of U11 and the Saiyan of U6 much better however you will be disappointed,it did not included frieza assassin subplot so check it out if it pleases you.Is a monthly manga so you have to wait a lot.

[ekrolo2]

Ehh, I don't think Toriyama making another manga to serve as a basis would fix a lot of things, it might improve the structure but a LOT of things Super and GT are accused of come as a consequence of writing that Toriyama himself laid the groundwork for in the Cell and Boo arcs.

I mean, again, I think the best thing about Super is the broad overarching narrative, which is essentially the result of Toriyama's bullet points, evolving arc by arc. They represent a macrocosm of Toriyama's "making stuff up as he goes along" creative process, on a chapter-to-chapter basis. Unfortunately, though, also again, he's an illustrator, not a writer, so he's not able to take full use of his talent in order to tell this story the way he would by his own hand.

I do think that the Cell and Buu arcs are the manga's weakest by a long shot, but I think part of the reason that they have the flaws they do is simple fatigue. They're both at the ass-end of a long unending run for the series. Regardless, I think they're both miles better than either GT or Super. Which writing decisions in particular from the manga do you think enabled GT and Super's writing mistakes?

The progressively declining story quality, certain things being set up then hastily or awkwardly re-routed into new directions, progressively worse and worse transformations and worse explanations for how characters get stronger, more and more of the cast just being on autopilot just to name a few off the top of my head.

[Zephyr]

certain things being set up then hastily or awkwardly re-routed into new directions, progressively worse and worse transformations and worse explanations for how characters get stronger, more and more of the cast just being on autopilot just to name a few off the top of my head.

Regarding the bolded, I think the transformations are actually quite interesting, and, for the most part, handled quite well. To quote myself from a recent thread:
[spoiler]

Super Saiyan Grade II and Grade III:
These are interesting. We see Vegeta "transcend the Super Saiyan wall" first, and it's a great success. When things get more dire, Trunks steps up to transcend it even further. Since the arc's introduction, Trunks is seen as someone who has a leg up on Vegeta. Where Vegeta failed to become a Super Saiyan and got killed by Freeza, Trunks shows up, shows that he (like Goku, but unlike Vegeta) can access the form, and fells Freeza effortlessly. So, naturally, we would once again expect Trunks to succeed where Vegeta had failed. This turns out to not be the case. Grade III shows how much of a novice Trunks really is compared to his seniors (Goku and Vegeta), when it comes to actual self-improvement and skill on the battlefield. Vegeta doesn't use the form, and Trunks' use of it is punctuated by Goku trying it out in the RoSaT. It sets up a nice dichotomy between speed and power. Cell, the one lecturing Trunks about the naivete of using such a form, goes on to make the same mistake in a fit of rage against Gohan, which I think is a cool comeuppance.

Super Saiyan 2:
At the time of its first appearance, it really embodies Gohan's hidden power and potential come to life: he's now way more powerful than anyone else. The back half of the Cell arc involves a lot of foreshadowing that Gohan's potential, which had been slowly displayed over the course of the preceding two story arcs, will finally come out in full force. Chichi tells Goku to make him as strong as possible. Gohan's struggle to become a Super Saiyan runs parallel to Cell's struggle to achieve perfection. Likewise, Gohan's attainment of Super Saiyan runs parallel to Cell's absorption of #18. Goku implies that he discovered something incredible in the RoSaT, but makes it repeatedly clear that he (Goku) stands absolutely no chance.

Super Saiyan 3:
Given that the two prior story arcs were resolved with a new Super Saiyan form, the expectation is set up that this one would likewise save the day. Toriyama subverts both that reoccurring plot point, and the audience's expectations. It's presented as a truly final form for the Saiyans, able to be sensed all the way out in the Kaioshin Realm. It's also interesting how it totally screws with Goku's remaining time, and is more sustainable while dead. Takes the "double-edged sword" aspect of Grade III and turns it up to 11.

[/spoiler]

Regarding the rest, I can't exactly agree or disagree without knowing what specifics you have in mind.

[Totamo]

certain things being set up then hastily or awkwardly re-routed into new directions, progressively worse and worse transformations and worse explanations for how characters get stronger, more and more of the cast just being on autopilot just to name a few off the top of my head.

Regarding the bolded, I think the transformations are actually quite interesting, and, for the most part, handled quite well. To quote myself from a recent thread:
[spoiler]

Super Saiyan Grade II and Grade III:
These are interesting. We see Vegeta "transcend the Super Saiyan wall" first, and it's a great success. When things get more dire, Trunks steps up to transcend it even further. Since the arc's introduction, Trunks is seen as someone who has a leg up on Vegeta. Where Vegeta failed to become a Super Saiyan and got killed by Freeza, Trunks shows up, shows that he (like Goku, but unlike Vegeta) can access the form, and fells Freeza effortlessly. So, naturally, we would once again expect Trunks to succeed where Vegeta had failed. This turns out to not be the case. Grade III shows how much of a novice Trunks really is compared to his seniors (Goku and Vegeta), when it comes to actual self-improvement and skill on the battlefield. Vegeta doesn't use the form, and Trunks' use of it is punctuated by Goku trying it out in the RoSaT. It sets up a nice dichotomy between speed and power. Cell, the one lecturing Trunks about the naivete of using such a form, goes on to make the same mistake in a fit of rage against Gohan, which I think is a cool comeuppance.

Super Saiyan 2:
At the time of its first appearance, it really embodies Gohan's hidden power and potential come to life: he's now way more powerful than anyone else. The back half of the Cell arc involves a lot of foreshadowing that Gohan's potential, which had been slowly displayed over the course of the preceding two story arcs, will finally come out in full force. Chichi tells Goku to make him as strong as possible. Gohan's struggle to become a Super Saiyan runs parallel to Cell's struggle to achieve perfection. Likewise, Gohan's attainment of Super Saiyan runs parallel to Cell's absorption of #18. Goku implies that he discovered something incredible in the RoSaT, but makes it repeatedly clear that he (Goku) stands absolutely no chance.

Super Saiyan 3:
Given that the two prior story arcs were resolved with a new Super Saiyan form, the expectation is set up that this one would likewise save the day. Toriyama subverts both that reoccurring plot point, and the audience's expectations. It's presented as a truly final form for the Saiyans, able to be sensed all the way out in the Kaioshin Realm. It's also interesting how it totally screws with Goku's remaining time, and is more sustainable while dead. Takes the "double-edged sword" aspect of Grade III and turns it up to 11.

[/spoiler]

Regarding the rest, I can't exactly agree or disagree without knowing what specifics you have in mind.

I can name 7 aspects of Cell and Buu that have laid the groundwork for both shows.

1. Goku's character- All of bad Goku memes came from the Cell saga and paints Goku in probably the worst light in the entire 42 volume. He does not care about his son's feeligs and Piccolo does.He does not care about the Earth but he would never put it in danger. He gives senzu beans to cell which did not have an effect that we saw but the principle behind it was in Goku's words, to give Gohan a fair fight when Gohan never wanted that. Goku had no plan on triggering Gohan so why did he depend on his anger to help him? When ever anyone defends Goku's characterization in Super, we go to that arc immediately.

2.The diminishing of super saiyan- Look, there is no way to cut it, the Cell saga destroyed the super saiyan transformation in more ways than one. It did by first giving it to every single saiyan alive so much for being legendary and by adding grades and second form, the first one become obsolete and this is a problem for something that had a legendary opening and backstory. Free

3.Time travel nonsense- Just like how the Future trunks arc made sense until Black's backstory was explained, Cell saga made sense until's Cell's story was explained. That nonsense lead to greater nonsense.

4.Characters coming out of nowhere to settle the big bads- You know how fans are made about Vegeta having so much focus at the end of ToP because he wasn't taht involved in the beginning? Did you also know that Gohan's first fight in the Cell saga is his fight against Cel?!

5. Things not being paid off- Where do I begin with this? The androids were built up to be this menacing threat and they weren't because Cell showed up. It devalues them because they were never properly defeated unlike say all of Freeza's army. The button we spent episodes upon episodes building got smashed at the last second. Tien's big moment is instantly destroyed because of Vegeta. Trunks was built up to be important but he also wasn't. Kamiccolo accomplishes nothing that impacts the story, he actually made it worse.

6. Inconsistent characterization- Vegeta is the worst in the Cell saga. he went from being cunning on namek to the cause of multiple of problems in the Cell saga. Gohan's passiveness which did not prevent him from fighting Recome by himself when he was 5 yet he scared to fight Cell. Then there is him becoming an arrogant prick when he went 2 which has never ever ever been a thing about him not even when he went super saiyan. thats Goku's thing, speaking of, Goku was a huge hypocrite yelling at his son for not killing Cell as fast as possible when he has let he has let worse way worse go.

7. Lack of character usage- The Freeza saga is truly the last saga anyone other than the saiyans mattered. Krillin mattered just as much as Gohan did on Namek. The Cell saga, there is not one thing anyone truly does that matters, Tien's kikoho, Krillin getting the button, Yamcha is Yamcha'd, Piccolo is immediately fodderized after one good fight.

[Grimlock]

I think the biggest problem with this saga is the lack of tension, lack of explanation, it came right after another tournament and no feeling of royale battle. And what's worse, the latter was heavily marketed when the saga was announced. It had potential (as most sagas), but once again the bad execution prevailed and we got a mediocre saga (though I must point out that the use of Super Saiyan 2 was awesome!).

[kemuri07]

@Totamo

I'll give you 1 and 2 because I don't think you're necessarily wrong.

3. Dude, it's Time Travel. Don't think too hard about it.

4. Not gonna lie man, I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

5. "The androids were built up to be this menacing threat and they weren't because Cell showed up. It devalues them because they were never properly defeated unlike say all of Freeza's army." Ummm, did you not see the final episode of the Cell Saga? Besides, the entire point of the arc is that it complete subverts the whole "we gotta get to the past to save the futuuure" aspect of the arc. Trunks actually makes things worse by going back into the past, creating an alternate universe in which there are several more androids, and of course allowing an alternate version of Cell to run amok in the present. Not sure how any of that is bad.

6. Not really? Besides, several times throughout the Namek saga Vegeta gets stomped (Zarbon, Recoome, Frieza) or outsmarted (Gohan) largely due to his priiiiiiiide. That doesn't change in the cell saga, and becomes exponentially worse once he's able to transform. Vegeta being an arrogant bastard has always been a part of his character. Comes with the whole "being a Saiyan prince" thing.

7. I guess? I mean, I agree that a lot of the minor characters stopped being important around the Namek saga.


I don't think you're wrong that the same thing we're talking about in Super is also in Z. I"m saying that Super is far, far worse.