Super Episode 127 (11 February 2018)

[Vegeta_Sama]

One thing that bothered me about this episode was how 18 acted towards 17. She was all sad and upset when he died. This differed from how she acted when Cell absorbed him where she seemed like she could care less. She was more worried about 16 than 17. Couple that with the fact that they state 17 and 18 have rarely kept in touch over the years, and it doesn't make much sense that she all the sudden cares what happens to him so much. I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but 18 just hasn't been herself for a lot of this ToP.

When Cell absorbed 17 she was more concerned with saving her own life since she was next. Besides, it's obvious that the two of them have changed over the years, embracing more and more their human side, so it's not that surprising that she would react like that.

[TheDipDap1234]

One thing that bothered me about this episode was how 18 acted towards 17. She was all sad and upset when he died. This differed from how she acted when Cell absorbed him where she seemed like she could care less. She was more worried about 16 than 17. Couple that with the fact that they state 17 and 18 have rarely kept in touch over the years, and it doesn't make much sense that she all the sudden cares what happens to him so much. I don't know, maybe I'm missing something, but 18 just hasn't been herself for a lot of this ToP.

17 said she got kinder in one of the ToP episodes (99 I think). Both of them have changed a lot since their first introduction.

[Nero<>Akira]

Man, the negativity is so overblown.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

You ever hear about the game The Last of Us? Its incredibly popular. That doesnt mean it sucks because its popular. Last of Us is widely considered one of the greatest games of all time and it became popular because of its quality

To be fair, as much as I love the game myself, it is very popular because it is realistically looking and an action game with some story investment. Gameplay-wise the quality is even more debatable than the rest. And that is coming from a guy who has played the game like 15 times, even on Grounded +. So it might not be the very best example of quality because even there there are different layers of quality that can be discussed.

That's not the point. The point is things that are popular can also have high quality. Just because something is popular doesn't mean it didn't also have the quality, and or didn't become popular because it's quality

But on that topic of Last of Us. Are you bugging lol? The gameplay in the Last of Us was amazing! No other third person game plays like it. It's mix of scavenging+resource management+It's free form flowing mixture of stealth/gunplay/meele etc.

The fact bullets have stopping power and that there are 1 hit kills forces you to play carefully. You are always on the run, crafting on the fly, planning and thinking like high speed chees, and just trying to survive in Last of Us. Playing games of cat and mouse with the incredible AI. Setting traps. Hitting melee combos off distractions etc

There's - still, to this day nothing else out there that captures the intensity, brutality, and survival of a skirmish(combat encounter) like the Last of Us does

There's nothing debatable about it's gameplay lol. Sure, only from console warriors. The fact you called it "action" is telling too. Did you play on easy mode and just decide to go all rambo?
Even on normal difficulty, you don't get the bullets to always play that way and items are more scarce. The Last of Us is so legendary because it has the amazing gameplay that matches it's story. There's a reason why The Last of Us multiplayer was so popular. Because people legit LOVED it's gameplay too

[Metalwario64]

Kind of a garbage episode. Vegeta's fighting at his "Super Vegeta Blue" form again, despite apparently exhausting himself completely in the last episode. Jiren's backstory further cement's him as a much more generic and uninteresting Toguro, and 17's death had no emotion or impact behind it. Plus, he was never marked out and Grand Priest just said that he appears to be dead, which makes me worry that even after all of this some sort of cop-out will occur where he's not actually dead.

[GamerSkull]

One thing I'm a bit confused on...

How did #17 self-destruct if his bomb was wished out by Kuririn at the end of the Cell arc?

Was it just him using his energy like Vegeta did? I must be unobservant.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Of course thats true

So what's your point? If you acknowledge that something popular can also be bad, what are you getting at? You're admitting we can't use popularity as a way to gauge a series' quality.

That just because something is popular, that doesnt mean it also doesnt have the quality. Thats always been a silly argument regarding most things in life. And if something is popular, that means a lot of people genuinely like it, so who are you or I to tell them that they are all just wrong - and that only we are right because we happen to be more critical?

[TheOtherDude]

It looks inconsistent because of how atrocious Toei is writing Super.

This is my main problem with not only this episode, but DBS as a whole. If DB/Z was a 7-8 on average, DBS is a 4-5 in comparison. Its a significant drop in quality, but the problem is that I believe people like Zenkai make up a good majority of the DBS fanbase in general. The kind of people that look pass any glaring flaws and enjoy the show as is. Now there is nothing wrong with that at the surface as different people like different things and what not, but its represents an underlaying problem.

Their are pros and cons to this, the pros is for Toei and company in general. If the fans are okay with a half-effort/lazy product it means they have no problems delivering that level of work on a regular basis if they know people will eat it up without fail, the cons is that for fans that want DBS to be the best it can be will never get that kind of product because we make up the minority which means our valid criticism go unheard.

Too many people are alrite with this product and its never going to get better if you keep supporting mediocre efforts that go into it and that is what bugs me the most about not only DBS, but the fanbase in general. I should be thrilled about DBS, but it seems with each passing episodes my enthusiasm for it diminishes over a period of time to the point I'm more happy DBS is ending than continuing and that just feels wrong to me.

i agree with pretty much everything you said.

I believe a simple solution would be for the manga to take the lead and for Toei to be forced into following that. It gives a less margin of error and allows very little chance for the writers to take too much liberty. Super is a perfect example of Toei taking the lead.

I’m not completely bashing the anime. There are some things I like in the anime moreso than the manga, but overall I appreciate the manga more. Hopefully they’ll do something like that if/when it starts back up.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

One thing I'm a bit confused on...

How did #17 self-destruct if his bomb was wished out by Kuririn at the end of the Cell arc?

Was it just him using his energy like Vegeta did? I must be unobservant.

Yep. Thats what it was. He basically "expelled" all his energy into a concentrated attack. "Blowing up." Which erased Jiren's attack. It's the same thing as what Vegeta did except Vegeta some how miraciously survived because plot armor. It's like some Vegeta fan has been blackmailing Toriyama/Toei lol

[Doctor.]

Of course thats true

So what's your point? If you acknowledge that something popular can also be bad, what are you getting at? You're admitting we can't use popularity as a way to gauge a series' quality.

That just because something is popular, that doesnt mean it also doesnt have the quality. Thats always been a silly argument regarding most things in life. And if something is popular, that means a lot of people genuinely like it, so who are you or I to tell them that they are all just wrong - and that only we are right because we happen to be more critical?

But you can apply that to anything that's popular. Anything popular you don't like? Sorry, you're not allowed to criticize it because it has fans.

[The Patrolman]

Who cares how Jiren got this strong?

I do.

Me too

[The Patrolman]

Consistency? WHATS THAT?

[Polyphase Avatron]

Who cares how Jiren got this strong?

I do.

Jiren is the Goku of his universe? He's just had tons of opportunities to train and get powerups and fight against really strong enemies?

[ZenkaiBoosts]

So Goku recovering all their energy in seconds is logical?

Constantly nerfing Jirens strength to give people some attention?

After Vegeta nearly self destructed and was completely out of energy, he was still powering up to SSB this episode. That was highly illogical.

Considering all that, Vegeta staying in base form in 128 is a great correction and very logical

Goku started running into stamina issues because his first battle with Jiren

1. Remember Frieza gave Goku energy

2. Goku got Omen again against Kefla

3. Its been implied Goku has been getting zenkai boosts

Now I'm not saying its tge best logic, but its def more logical then whats been happening with Vegeta's situation imo

In what way ways do you feel Jiren was nerfed? I've made posts adressing that

It’s logical if you keep in mind about how the manga was set up. You seem to be obsessed with Toei having an outline to follow so let me clear this up.

It looks inconsistent because of how atrocious Toei is writing Super. In the manga, Goku and Vegeta are essentially equals at the beginning of this arc. It’s safe to say that Goku and Vegeta were supposed to be neck and neck at the start. In the anime it was hard to make that happen since they came up with SSBKK, so naturally they had to sneak that in somewhere. Yeah it would’ve been nice that this was clear from the beginning, but oh well.

You’re essentially saying that you’ll tolerate all kinds of inconsistencies with everything else as long as it’s not Vegeta. Gokus recovery makes even less sense than Vegetas even though we saw Vegeta intentionally keep his energy to himself to conserve stamina.

They’re nerfing Jirens strength by making it seem like they actually have a chance of defeating him. Jiren just got “serious” and there’s really nothing new about how he’s dominating everyone. It’s like it has been these last few episodes. Serious Jiren (who is supposed to be stronger/as strong as a God of a Destruction) should be able to flick someone like 17 and knock him out. It’s like Roshi fighting Frost for a few seconds. Frost was put on defense by Roshi and had a better showing than Piccolo. It’s fake tension. But guys like you eat it up and defend it in every way possible.

I already explained why I feel Goku regaining stamina has been handled far better then Vegetas - and why it has made much more logical sense then with Vegeta's situation

Again, Vegeta BLEW HIMSELF UP. .Was literally at ZERO energy. Yet was still powering up to blue multiple times this episode. You may be a Vegeta fan but to say Goku has been just as bad or excuse Vegeta, come on now.

Gokus' situation was at least explained and reasoned. Goku was never ran down to absolute 0 zero energy. Maybe close to it, but never to the point of Vegeta's "I blew myself up but some how I survived because plot armor, and now I have nothing left but I'm still powering up to SSB2 because asspull"

Remember the spirit bomb was acting as a conduit fot Goku. The spirit bomb gave Goku energy. After the battle with Jiren, FRIEZA GAVE GOKU ENERGY. Did you miss that episode?Against Kefla, Goku got a zenki boost (or at least that been implied or reasoned for by others).

You could "argue" that Goku shouldn't have come back from being knocked out by Kefla...but then again - that was the whole point in Goku re-activating Omen. That Goku was driven to his limits again and in a need to survive his body pushed past his limits again and Omen kicked in. So there really isn't even a good argument there. Goku's situations have been handled really well..

Goku has clearly been shown to be stronger then Vegeta. Goku has been handling himself better against Jiren. Vegeta's new form was an asspull to make Vegeta equal to SSBKK Goku and to be able to "compete" with Jiren. Goku's Omen transitioning was still far superior. And Goku's UI perfect transformation will blow everything away.

This arc has clearly been about foreshadowing Goku vs Jiren -and Goku breaking his shell and surpassing his limits and Jiren. That every time Goku fights Jiren he grows stronger, and that every time Goku tastes UI he grows significantly. You even had Toppo himself WARNING Jiren about Goku. "Son Goku continues to grow stronger"....Think about that.

As for the part about Jiren. Read my other posts regarding that. In short they showed off Jiren's strength multiple times. And 17 was mostly fighting to survive and never mounted any real offense. He only managed to catch Jiren off guard

[Zillamon51]

Jiren's backstory is the most generic imaginable.

And once again, shit strategy. Frieza should have continued laying low. If he was compelled to attack, doing so in his base form was foolish. (Why was he so pissed and Jiren anyway?)

17, the guy with infinite stamina, should run interference, allowing Goku and Vegeta time to recover. And if he had to blow himself up, he damn sure should have been holding onto Jiren.

Screw it, let's go full fan-service, and get Vegito in there to mop up.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

It looks inconsistent because of how atrocious Toei is writing Super.

This is my main problem with not only this episode, but DBS as a whole. If DB/Z was a 7-8 on average, DBS is a 4-5 in comparison. Its a significant drop in quality, but the problem is that I believe people like Zenkai make up a good majority of the DBS fanbase in general. The kind of people that look pass any glaring flaws and enjoy the show as is. Now there is nothing wrong with that at the surface as different people like different things and what not, but its represents an underlaying problem.

Their are pros and cons to this, the pros is for Toei and company in general. If the fans are okay with a half-effort/lazy product it means they have no problems delivering that level of work on a regular basis if they know people will eat it up without fail, the cons is that for fans that want DBS to be the best it can be will never get that kind of product because we make up the minority which means our valid criticism go unheard.

Too many people are alrite with this product and its never going to get better if you keep supporting mediocre efforts that go into it and that is what bugs me the most about not only DBS, but the fanbase in general. I should be thrilled about DBS, but it seems with each passing episodes my enthusiasm for it diminishes over a period of time to the point I'm more happy DBS is ending than continuing and that just feels wrong to me.

i agree with pretty much everything you said.

I believe a simple solution would be for the manga to take the lead and for Toei to be forced into following that. It gives a less margin of error and allows very little chance for the writers to take too much liberty. Super is a perfect example of Toei taking the lead.

I’m not completely bashing the anime. There are some things I like in the anime moreso than the manga, but overall I appreciate the manga more. Hopefully they’ll do something like that if/when it starts back up.

This is to the both of you

The manga isn't any more canon. It's written by Toyotaro who loves to constantly do his own thing (Vegetto and SSgod Vegeta not being in Toriyama's transcripts are just some examples etc)

The anime(Toei) are following Toriyama's outlines and transcripts. And even if Toei wants to make little changes, it always is approved by Toriyama first (has to be approved by Toriyama first)

If anything the anime is "more canon" because Toei themselfes just came out and said that they treat the word of Toriyama as the word of god. The anime has been more in line with Toriyama's original visions etc.

And in my personal opinion the manga is a forgettable afterthought compared to the anime. Very boring to read the manga. It's very plain. The anime is far superior imo due to character moments, epicness, excitement, music, fights etc

This idea that the manga will "fix" everything is funny to me because

1. What needs "fixing" exactly? What can they do? According to many people the anime is better.

2. The manga will follow the same outlines that the anime hit lol. Both follow Toriyama's outlines lol. Some people seem to not truly understand that

Unless Toyotaro makes drastic changes which is a possibility considering how much of a loose canon Toyotaro is, which therefore would make the manga non canon. Non canon being anything that veers away from Toriyama's transcripts that Toriyama doesn't first approve

[ZenkaiBoosts]

So what's your point? If you acknowledge that something popular can also be bad, what are you getting at? You're admitting we can't use popularity as a way to gauge a series' quality.

That just because something is popular, that doesnt mean it also doesnt have the quality. Thats always been a silly argument regarding most things in life. And if something is popular, that means a lot of people genuinely like it, so who are you or I to tell them that they are all just wrong - and that only we are right because we happen to be more critical?

But you can apply that to anything that's popular. Anything popular you don't like? Sorry, you're not allowed to criticize it because it has fans.

No where did I say that. It goes both ways. I'm a detractor too..or at least I was one..Positive opinions can exist too. I've already said that I know Super is flawed. I said people can criticize all they want. If only the other side had the same tolerance. What I'm saying is that just because people love Super, that doesnt make them children who only like flashy things. That doesn't make them wrong either. If a lot of people like Super whats wrong with that? Its insanely popular for a reason regardless of how you or I feel about it. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and that's that

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Jiren's backstory is the most generic imaginable.

And once again, shit strategy. Frieza should have continued laying low. If he was compelled to attack, doing so in his base form was foolish. (Why was he so pissed and Jiren anyway?)

17, the guy with infinite stamina, should run interference, allowing Goku and Vegeta time to recover. And if he had to blow himself up, he damn sure should have been holding onto Jiren.

Screw it, let's go full fan-service, and get Vegito in there to mop up.

Not happening. Read the title for episode 128. To the END. Vegeta FALLS.

[Zillamon51]

Not happening. Read the title for episode 128. To the END. Vegeta FALLS.

We'll see next week.

[ZenkaiBoosts]

Not happening. Read the title for episode 128. To the END. Vegeta FALLS.

We'll see next week.

He's getting eliminated. Episode 129 spoilers even specifically mention it (if the title for 128 wasn't enough)