Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

I think it goes like this.

Super Saiyan Blue High Tier - SSB Goku and Vegeta, Golden Frieza, Toppo

Super Saiyan Blue Mid Tier - SSR Black, SSI Trunks, Ultimate Gohan, Android 17, Golden Frieza (RoF Saga)

Super Saiyan Blue Low Tier - Hit, Base Kefla, Pirina, Saonel, Koichiarator, SSB Goku and Vegeta (RoF/U6 Saga)

Or that general idea.

Seems good except:

- I would personally place Black at high Blue tier. In E65 it was confirmed he was the strongest and since E77 showed that Goku and Vegeta haven't trained that much after the FT arc, I don't think they surpassed him.

- I don't know why but 17 seems weaker than Gohan to me.

- Kefla is not SSB tier in base. I don't even think she is stronger than SSG in base.

[Amir]

Yes, the fact that 17 did not cause any damage to suppressed Toppo proves that it is considerably inferior to SSB. Piccolo himself said that 17 was keeping Toppo busy, but none of his attacks were decisive. Toppo realized that 17 wanted to hold him until the end of the tournament and so he used all his power. And with all his power, 17 had no chance. But Freeza, who is as strong as Toppo was there and so 17 managed to push Ki's attack back.

First off Toppo was not suppressed at all, and no it doesn't. 17 wasn't even trying damage him, he tried to keep him busy until time runs out, playing it safe and smart. That was the purpose of that ki blast spam, Saying he couldn't harm Toppo's body when he wasn't trying to is invalid. And Toppo was still pushed back by the blasts and had to block it, and even then it slashed his uniform a bit, so that confirms 17 has enough power to damage Toppo. among many other things, like how his blast defeated him with Frieza's blast as well. When SSJB Goku fought Golden Frieza in ROF, Golden Frieza was a little bit stronger yet he dominated Goku and Goku didn't put a scratch on him, does that mean Goku's attacks were too weak to damage Golden Frieza? 17 knew fighting head on with Toppo would be similar to the fight I just mentioned because Toppo was a bit stronger, that was the reason he tried to stall him, not because his attacks are too weak to harm him, that's absurd.

And you continue to ignore my point about 17 holding off a full power blast from Toppo and somewhat matching it, keeping up with him in combat, tanking hits from Jiren, scratching Jiren, keeping up with him just like Goku and Vegeta...it's clearly obvious 17's power is just a bit below SSJB and Toppo.

Yes, Toppo was suppressed. He only used his maximum power in the energy dispute against the 17 (at that time, he said he would use all his justice against 17 and raise his Ki). So before that he was suppressed.

17 was trying to keep Toppo occupied precisely because he was not able to defeat him.
When he saw that it was six minutes to the end, he tried to hold Toppo until the tournament was over.
And like I said, all this was not enough to do even a relevant damage to Toppo. He just cut off some of his clothes (and it was nothing close to what Goku SSB did with a Kamehameha, in which in addition to leaving Toppo's uniform more damaged, it also left him panting and irritated).

And the case of Goku and Golden Freeza was different.
Goku was far inferior, but even so, when his blows really hit Freeza, they clearly caused pain to the emperor. In the case of 17, not even his attacks of Ki scratch Toppo.

17 could do absolutely nothing against Toppo's full-power attack, he was only able to counter when Freeza attacked Toppo.

Fallacy. Just because someone isn't clad with aura and isn't putting everything he has into one powerful blast and stuff doesn't mean he is actually suppressed in the melee hand to hand combat area. With that logic I can say 17 was suppressed as well because he didn't power up when he was fighting Toppo and even when he fired his blast he didn't even charge it up. With that logic I can say Toppo and Vegeta were suppressed and holding back because they didn't charge up ki when they fought h2h. I can also say Toppo was definitely trying and fighting seriously without holding back even before using his full power blast. Also did you really just compare a full power kamehameha to some regular ki blast spam in order to decide the differences between 17 and SSJB Goku? That's taking things out of context.

I know 17 was trying to keep him occupied because of that said reason, but like I said it doesn't man 17 couldn't damage Toppo with his attacks.
The case of Goku and Golden Frieza wasn't different in context at all. SSJB was enough to damage Frieza but Frieza was still sueprior so that's why he was still easily winning. You say that Goku actually managed to cause pain to Frieza while 17 couldn't, but on what exactly are you basing that? 17 never hit Toppo at all. They were just fighting with blasts mostly and Toppo blocked all the attacks so it's totally irrelevant. And you keep saying not even his ki attacks could scratch him even after I explained to you 3 times by now that the intention behind those ki blasts was to keep him occupied and Toppo still had to block them, taking things out of context won't spport your argument.
There was literally no example of Toppo getting hit with full power blows from 17 and just taking it on like it was nothing like you're trying to imply. He always makes sure to block 17's attacks.

Absolutely nothing? Now you are just making false conclusions. 17 literally held off the blast with his own blast and it only slowly pushed 17 back, but he still matched it somewhat, and when he reached the edge he stopped being pushed back for a bit, then Frieza joined in.
Toppo literally had his hands full and focused everything he had on 17 to the point he was completely defenseless. Even a tiny death beam from a non serious Frieza was enough to distract him so much thathe could no longer have an advantage against 17. If 17 was as weak as you think he is, Toppo would have just blown him away and turn around to fight Frieza, but he couldn't do it even after Frieza attacked, he still used both hands to hold off 17's blast and allowed Frieza to blast him non stop. And on top of that, when Frieza blasted Toppo with a more powerul blast, it didn't finish Toppo off, it only made Toppo lose the beam struggle and allow 17's blast to hit him which obvioulsy put the most damage.
There are differences in their strength, but little differences, similar to SSJB Goku and Golden Frieza in ROF.

Also in the latest episode Goku had a plan to keep Jiren busy so 17 would then use a big powerful blast to damage Jiren, so obviously Goku knows 17 has enough power to damage these SSJB + tiers when they don't block or dodge, something you keep deny for some reason.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Then suppressed Base form Kefla did rot down on Super Saiyan God and was pushed to transform into Super Saiyan. So I'd say Super Saiyan Blue is greater than Base form Kefla as she did need to transform. Albeit, she took down Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken in one kick while suppressed still.

She only took out SSBKK Goku because he was running out of staimia during the fight hence why Beerus warns him about using SSBKK when not in fullpower or why he said Goku only had one shot left. Kefla use this chance to distract him with KI blast to waste his kamekameka and kick the rest his merger energy. This happen despite the fact SSBKK Goku was overpowering he majority of the fight which explains why he lost the form. Also Kefla wasn't supressed as she already powered up to her max when Goku told her to pump things up earlier. Even Piccolo claims SSJ2 Kefla just surpassed SSBKK that was overpowered her eariler.

[DB▪Magnum-Expert]

SsjB Goku Episode 122+ > Ultra Instinct Goku episodes 110 + 116

[Rally 07]

She only took out SSBKK Goku because he was running out of staimia during the fight hence why Beerus warns him about using SSBKK when not in fullpower or why he said Goku only had one shot left. Kefla use this chance to distract him with KI blast to waste his kamekameka and kick the rest his merger energy. This happen despite the fact SSBKK Goku was overpowering he majority of the fight which explains why he lost the form. Also Kefla wasn't supressed as she already powered up to her max when Goku told her to pump things up earlier. Even Piccolo claims SSJ2 Kefla just surpassed SSBKK that was overpowered her eariler.

First off. Gokou's stamina was depleting due to him using Kaioken. Thank you for pointing out the most obvious. But all the same Gokou's stamina seems to not really be much of an issue at all. Mainly due to Gokou being able to repeatedly transform into his God forms and keep fighting. I know it's bad writing on Toei's part but I don't like to slap bad writing over everything like everyone else does. I see it as a pretty lazy argument to make.

Secondly, Gokou was most definitely not overpowering Kefla at all. He just got some pretty critical hits and did some damage to suppressed Kefla. And Kefla straight up said she wasn't even going all out and wasn't even trying to actually defeat and eliminate Gokou as she wanted to continue fighting him. You've provided no proof to claim Kefla wasn't suppressed and was going all out. If you think transforming into Super Saiyan was her going to full power, then you're kinda wrong. Mainly because that scene was more or less a plot hype scenario just to keep things interesting. But it does sorta mean Base form Kefla < Super Saiyan Blue Gokou. As she did want to transform against Gokou. But it seems that you may be implying Kelfa only stood any chance due to Gokou being fatigued which is quite laughable and very redundant and which has been disproven.

And Piccolo and Whis both claim Kefla is both stronger than the Genkidama as a Super Saiyan and Gokou's Ultra Instinct from earlier as a Super Saiyan 2. Also this same Genkidama was likely much more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20, it was enough to make Belmod concerned about it which could mean very well mean that Genkidama was more than likely Haikishin tier, and made suppressed Jiren struggle more than he did with Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20. This is openly and blatantly stated. It's apparent that you've haven't paid attention to Super episode 115 and 116.

Also love the profile picture dude.

[Rally 07]

- I don't know why but 17 seems weaker than Gohan to me.

- Kefla is not SSB tier in base. I don't even think she is stronger than SSG in base.

Base form Kefla destroyed Super Saiyan God in the very beginning of Super episode 115.

And I argue No.17 is stronger than Gohan. But I've had that same feeling for a while now dude. I feel like No.17 can be argued weaker than Gohan but No.17's feats are objectively somewhat greater. I mean taking on a less suppressed Jiren and damaging him, taking on Haikashin Toppo whom was overwhelming more powerful than him and Golden Freeza. Even in his Base form, Toppo was finessing Ultimate Gohan. And No.17 to a lesser extent, if you wanna argue so. And he was able to hold his own against Toppo's full power attack. And Toppo was able to push Gokou into using Kaioken while not utilizing the full extent of his power.

[ZombieVito]

- I don't know why but 17 seems weaker than Gohan to me.

- Kefla is not SSB tier in base. I don't even think she is stronger than SSG in base.

Base form Kefla destroyed Super Saiyan God in the very beginning of Super episode 115.

And I argue No.17 is stronger than Gohan. But I've had that same feeling for a while now dude. I feel like No.17 can be argued weaker than Gohan but No.17's feats are objectively somewhat greater. I mean taking on a less suppressed Jiren and damaging him, taking on Haikashin Toppo whom was overwhelming more powerful than him and Golden Freeza. Even in his Base form, Toppo was finessing Ultimate Gohan. And No.17 to a lesser extent, if you wanna argue so. And he was able to hold his own against Toppo's full power attack. And Toppo was able to push Gokou into using Kaioken while not utilizing the full extent of his power.

Kefla destroyed a tired SSG Goku though.

17 only damaged Jiren by getting him off guard and he only ran against Toppo.

[Amir]

She only took out SSBKK Goku because he was running out of staimia during the fight hence why Beerus warns him about using SSBKK when not in fullpower or why he said Goku only had one shot left. Kefla use this chance to distract him with KI blast to waste his kamekameka and kick the rest his merger energy. This happen despite the fact SSBKK Goku was overpowering he majority of the fight which explains why he lost the form. Also Kefla wasn't supressed as she already powered up to her max when Goku told her to pump things up earlier. Even Piccolo claims SSJ2 Kefla just surpassed SSBKK that was overpowered her eariler.

First off. Gokou's stamina was depleting due to him using Kaioken. Thank you for pointing out the most obvious. But all the same Gokou's stamina seems to not really be much of an issue at all. Mainly due to Gokou being able to repeatedly transform into his God forms and keep fighting. I know it's bad writing on Toei's part but I don't like to slap bad writing over everything like everyone else does. I see it as a pretty lazy argument to make.

Secondly, Gokou was most definitely not overpowering Kefla at all. He just got some pretty critical hits and did some damage to suppressed Kefla. And Kefla straight up said she wasn't even going all out and wasn't even trying to actually defeat and eliminate Gokou as she wanted to continue fighting him. You've provided no proof to claim Kefla wasn't suppressed and was going all out. If you think transforming into Super Saiyan was her going to full power, then you're kinda wrong. Mainly because that scene was more or less a plot hype scenario just to keep things interesting. But it does sorta mean Base form Kefla < Super Saiyan Blue Gokou. As she did want to transform against Gokou. But it seems that you may be implying Kelfa only stood any chance due to Gokou being fatigued which is quite laughable and very redundant and which has been disproven.

And Piccolo and Whis both claim Kefla is both stronger than the Genkidama as a Super Saiyan and Gokou's Ultra Instinct from earlier as a Super Saiyan 2. Also this same Genkidama was likely much more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20, it was enough to make Belmod concerned about it which could mean very well mean that Genkidama was more than likely Haikishin tier, and made suppressed Jiren struggle more than he did with Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20. This is openly and blatantly stated. It's apparent that you've haven't paid attention to Super episode 115 and 116.

Also love the profile picture dude.

But in the fight with Kefla, the stamina thing had not been thrown out of the wondow, and it still mattered and was adressed a couple of times. Beerus literally said he can't use kaioken anymore and can only attack once, that attack didn't finish Kefla so he was already done for. Had Goku been fresh, he wouldn't be knocked out.

Secondly, Goku had the advantage against her in his kaioken, and Kefla never said she wasn't going all out at all, you just made that up. Also just because she wanted to fight him more doesn't mean she was holding back for the purpose of dragging out the fight, you are using your headcanon to conclude that, and it's not even that logical anyways, Kefla even said Goku was a worthy opponent. Nothing suggested that she was holding back as a SSJ.

Kefla was stated to rival the Genki Dama, not to be stronger than it. I guess that decides SSJ Kefla's power level so I can;t argue that, but that statement didn't make sense because if she really was stronger than KK20x Goku then she should have instantly beat him without any effort.

[Rally 07]

[quote="ZombieVito"]
Kefla destroyed a tired SSG Goku though.

Once again, the fact that Gokou is continuously transforming into his God forms implies that Gokou's stamina is not much of an issue regardless. So the "fatigued" argument doesn't bring much to topic anymore. Mainly due to the fact everyone who brings up this argument only really imply Kefla only stands a chance against Gokou is because he's fatigued which is completely wrong. So coupled with Gokou transforming into his God forms and continues to fight regardless if he's fully recovered and with Gokou spamming Kaioken numerous times. The "fatigued" argument honestly doesn't really work anymore in my opinion.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Kefla destroyed a tired SSG Goku though.

Once again, the fact that Gokou is continuously transforming into his God forms implies that Gokou's stamina is not much of an issue regardless. So the "fatigued" argument doesn't bring much to topic anymore. Mainly due to the fact everyone who brings up this argument only really imply Kefla only stands a chance against Gokou is because he's fatigued which is completely wrong. So coupled with Gokou transforming into his God forms and continues to fight regardless if he's fully recovered and with Gokou spamming Kaioken numerous times. The "fatigued" argument honestly doesn't really work anymore in my opinion.

Not to mention that Kefla also turned out to be stronger than expected AND Goku was acclimatizing to his decreased stamina and getting used to running on fumes.

[Rally 07]

But in the fight with Kefla, the stamina thing had not been thrown out of the wondow, and it still mattered and was adressed a couple of times. Beerus literally said he can't use kaioken anymore and can only attack once, that attack didn't finish Kefla so he was already done for. Had Goku been fresh, he wouldn't be knocked out.

Secondly, Goku had the advantage against her in his kaioken, and Kefla never said she wasn't going all out at all, you just made that up. Also just because she wanted to fight him more doesn't mean she was holding back for the purpose of dragging out the fight, you are using your headcanon to conclude that, and it's not even that logical anyways, Kefla even said Goku was a worthy opponent. Nothing suggested that she was holding back as a SSJ.

Kefla was stated to rival the Genki Dama, not to be stronger than it. I guess that decides SSJ Kefla's power level so I can;t argue that, but that statement didn't make sense because if she really was stronger than KK20x Goku then she should have instantly beat him without any effort.

The stamina issue is pointlessly brought up multiple times in the episodes with Goku fighting Kefla. And it's been bulleted in Super episode 115 but I find it quite contradictory on Toei's part. Mainly because Gokou is able to continue fighting even when he spams Kaioken and transform into his God forms with no problem. So honestly Gokou's stamina isn't an issue. Plus regardless, if Gokou had stamina, he would still have trouble with Kefla either way.

And indeed Kefla as a Super Saiyan rivals the power of the Genkidama but transforming into Super Saiyan 2, she would be twice as powerful as the Genkidama. And you argue it doesn't make sense if she's more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20. But remember that the Genkidama was vaguely much more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20; the same Genkidama made suppressed Jiren struggle more than he did against Gokou, and made Belmod concerned about it. And Kefla rivals this as a Super Saiyan.

And she straight up said she wasn't even going all out when she defeated Gokou. Perhaps you should re-watch the fight if you truly think I'm using my headcanon. Kefla's exact words "I wanted to keep fighting you for a little longer, but this is a match. I'm knocking you off now." This means she didn't even plan on just knocking Gokou off the stage and just wanted to continue fighting. Meaning she was more than likely was not going full power.

[Rally 07]

Not to mention that Kefla also turned out to be stronger than expected AND Goku was acclimatizing to his decreased stamina and getting used to running on fumes.

Yeah. Plus Kefla was actually becoming more and more powerful as she kept fighting Super Saiyan Blue Gokou. Everyone on the benches kept mentioning how much Kale, Caulifla, and then including Kefla's energy continued to rise at high rates in short amounts of time.

[Amir]

But in the fight with Kefla, the stamina thing had not been thrown out of the wondow, and it still mattered and was adressed a couple of times. Beerus literally said he can't use kaioken anymore and can only attack once, that attack didn't finish Kefla so he was already done for. Had Goku been fresh, he wouldn't be knocked out.

Secondly, Goku had the advantage against her in his kaioken, and Kefla never said she wasn't going all out at all, you just made that up. Also just because she wanted to fight him more doesn't mean she was holding back for the purpose of dragging out the fight, you are using your headcanon to conclude that, and it's not even that logical anyways, Kefla even said Goku was a worthy opponent. Nothing suggested that she was holding back as a SSJ.

Kefla was stated to rival the Genki Dama, not to be stronger than it. I guess that decides SSJ Kefla's power level so I can;t argue that, but that statement didn't make sense because if she really was stronger than KK20x Goku then she should have instantly beat him without any effort.

The stamina issue is pointlessly brought up multiple times in the episodes with Goku fighting Kefla. And it's been bulleted in Super episode 115 but I find it quite contradictory on Toei's part. Mainly because Gokou is able to continue fighting even when he spams Kaioken and transform into his God forms with no problem. So honestly Gokou's stamina isn't an issue. Plus regardless, if Gokou had stamina, he would still have trouble with Kefla either way.

And indeed Kefla as a Super Saiyan rivals the power of the Genkidama but transforming into Super Saiyan 2, she would be twice as powerful as the Genkidama. And you argue it doesn't make sense if she's more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20. But remember that the Genkidama was vaguely much more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20; the same Genkidama made suppressed Jiren struggle more than he did against Gokou, and made Belmod concerned about it. And Kefla rivals this as a Super Saiyan.

And she straight up said she wasn't even going all out when she defeated Gokou. Perhaps you should re-watch the fight if you truly think I'm using my headcanon. Kefla's exact words "I wanted to keep fighting you for a little longer, but this is a match. I'm knocking you off now." This means she didn't even plan on just knocking Gokou off the stage and just wanted to continue fighting. Meaning she was more than likely was not going full power.

Agreed with the first point.

All I'm saying is that based on how Goku was doing against Kefla in her SSJ form, she is around kaioken Blue level, not Genki dama level, but I can't argue against Whis's statement because it was obviously author intention.

That's exactly the headcanon here. Just because Kefla said: ''I wanted to keep fighting you for a little longer, but this is a match. I'm knocking you off now'' doesn't mean she wasn't going full power and it also doesn't mean she didn't plan on knocking him off the stage, it's your own subjective interpretation which is not fact. I can argue she was just disappointed the fight was over so quickly since she is a saiyan who loves good fights, and good fights are fights when she goes all out without holding back which give her a challenge.

Just because someone, especially a saiyan is disappointed a fight is over doesn't mean that said someone was dragging out the fight on purpose. It's not nearly enough to call a solid proof at all, and based on how the fight played out that Goku inflicted great pain and damage on her, how she was surprised when he caught her off guard with his speed, the fact she said a single punch from him made her hand go numb, the fact that she called him a worthy opponent to beat, Vados being worried, Champa being legit scared after she got punched, and Whis saying what drove Kefla to stand up and keep going after being knocked down was her saiyan blood and not something about her holding back all suggest this was a pretty equal fight with a slight upper hand to Goku, and both sides gave full efforts.

[SayianBeyondGod]

First off. Gokou's stamina was depleting due to him using Kaioken. Thank you for pointing out the most obvious. But all the same Gokou's stamina seems to not really be much of an issue at all. Mainly due to Gokou being able to repeatedly transform into his God forms and keep fighting. I know it's bad writing on Toei's part but I don't like to slap bad writing over everything like everyone else does. I see it as a pretty lazy argument to make.

Beerus claimed that in Goku fatigued state he shouldn't utilize normal SSBKK and that he has only one more shot before he runs out of stamina/ki which explains Kelfa being able to knock him out of the form with a single kick when she got behind him while he was distracted with his last Kamehameha. If you agree with this base what you said in the latter here, then you should may as well concede to the point that SSBKK Goku had little stamina left when Kefla kicked him, so it was due running out of more stamina why he got knocked out. Yes he was able to turn into god forms, but it doesn't change the fact his stamina got worse when going so far as to go SSBKK and it's not really relevant at all. I think you're underestimating his staimia considering the fact he can't go SSJ3 long, go kaioken x20 with Vados implying fullpower SSB would be too much for SSJ Kefla.

Secondly, Gokou was most definitely not overpowering Kefla at all. He just got some pretty critical hits and did some damage to suppressed Kefla. And Kefla straight up said she wasn't even going all out and wasn't even trying to actually defeat and eliminate Gokou as she wanted to continue fighting him. You've provided no proof to claim Kefla wasn't suppressed and was going all out. If you think transforming into Super Saiyan was her going to full power, then you're kinda wrong. Mainly because that scene was more or less a plot hype scenario just to keep things interesting. But it does sorta mean Base form Kefla < Super Saiyan Blue Gokou. As she did want to transform against Gokou. But it seems that you may be implying Kelfa only stood any chance due to Gokou being fatigued which is quite laughable and very redundant and which has been disproven.

Yes he was, Goku in kaioken/king kai fist was able to cause her arm to go numb when in just in regular kaioken/king kai fist(which is around x2 or close) as he says it without the added multiplier. When he later powers up more she was failing to react to him move and continues to overpower her initially to the point where she struggles to get up while damaged with the crowd worried even Champa whom is aware of her power. Kefla never claimed she wasn't going all out she only claimed that she wanted the fight him more which doesn't mean she was holding back for the purpose of dragging out the fight. She wanted a longer fight that's all she's trying to imply not that she held back despite Goku not having the stamina to prolong the fight. Goku already told Kefla to max out when he told her to pump things up in which they both powered up to their max. Nothing suggests the she was holding back, it contradicts the point that she thought Goku was a worthy opponent, Kefla letting herself get overpowered or the fact the it took her SSJ2 form to surpass the same SSBKK Goku that was overpowering her. The burden of proof is on your to prove this claim that you originally made. I don't think transforming into a SSJ means she's at full power but with the various statements across the show and the fact she powers up more than once proves she's using her max potential.

It's was already made evidently clear that the reason why she could hold her own was due to Goku being fatigue, so it's not redundant nor have you showed any burden of proof to disprove this. In halfway of episode 115, when Vados claims that kefla at SSJ should take blue Goku carefully, while champa responded that Goku was still fatigue implying to why Kefla stood a chance which was due to Goku currently being fatigued in the fight and proves that a full power SSB would be too much, with no argument against her statement from champa. Just after that Vados question whether Kefla can take on(not beat or win) fatigue blue goku(which champa already acknowledges in the conversation) in which Champa responded "yeah", even while further saying and acknowledging that he didn't know Kefla power as SSJ would be so powerful at the same time and it was a happy miscalculation.

And Piccolo and Whis both claim Kefla is both stronger than the Genkidama as a Super Saiyan and Gokou's Ultra Instinct from earlier as a Super Saiyan 2. Also this same Genkidama was likely much more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20, it was enough to make Belmod concerned about it which could mean very well mean that Genkidama was more than likely Haikishin tier, and made suppressed Jiren struggle more than he did with Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20. This is openly and blatantly stated. It's apparent that you've haven't paid attention to Super episode 115 and 116.

First of all here are the actual Japanese translations of the scene in episode 116, which I've been given from someone whom speaks Japanese:

Whis: -「今度の発動の引き金はおそらくケフラさん」
Kondo no hatsudou no hikigane wa osoraku kefura-san
The trigger this time appears to have been Kefla-san
Beerus: -「奴の巨大な気が…」
Yatsu no kyoudai na ki ga...
Her gigantic Ki...

Whis: -「ええ。元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに匹敵するほどのケフラさんの気が悟空さんを刺激して、またひとつ己の限界の殻を破ったのでしょう」
Ee. Genkidama wo abita toki no pawaa ni hittekisuru hodo no kefura-san no ki ga gokuu-san wo shigekishite mata hitotsu onore no genkai no kara wo yabutta no deshou.
Indeed. I presume Kefla-san's Ki, who rivaled his power when he bathed in the Genkidama, acted as a stimulus and allowed Goku-san to once again break through his limit.

Important part being "元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに匹敵するほどのケフラさんの気", in detail and somewhat transliterally:
"元気玉を浴びた時のパワーに" means "The power of when [Goku] bathed in the Genkidama"
"匹敵するほど" means "to be so much as to rival" (匹敵 means equaling/rivaling/matching)
"ケフラさんの気" means "Kefla-san's Ki"

So in other words, Whis isn't comparing Kelfa to the Genkidama, but to Goku when he bathed in the Genkidama. Most likely is that Whis is talking about Kelfa gigantic ki made Goku rival the low state he was to when he bathed in the Genkidama, especially when he was so fatigued he fell into the spirt bomb with his Ki being hard to sense and low under rubble to the point no one could sense it momentarily. It wouldn't make sense for kefla power to be comparable to the Goku low state but instead the effects as both broke his limit to the point he had no ki left. Regardless it makes more sense if you connect the rest of the context without disturbing the statement, as Whis continue to talk about Kefla ki being a stimulus that broke his shell which reinforces the fact he was comparing the effect(both pushed Goku into a low state) and role interpretation. Though I heard this could be also translated to Kefla Ki compared directly to the spirit bomb but again, I don't see why it can't be interpret as role/ability comparison especially with what Whis says in the latter or the fact that he says "ki" instead of power. But in the end Whis is presuming something so he's not 100% or factual, just like when he though Caulifa was just a brawler but takes it back afterwards. Besides translation with further context of the scene or more credible feats to back it up, it was obvious Whis was talking about Kelfa having the spirit bomb role rather than literal power.


Even the narrator confirms that it was the extreme overall battle that served to trigger the form not a single attack/kick that rivalled the Genkidama. If you believe she's Genkidama level at SSJ then you may as well concede to SSB full power Goku or SSBKK rivalling that level too especially when she never powered up when she kicked him, so she was still at the same level of power when Goku overpowered her. Another point to bring up is that, in episode 122 Vegeta implies that Jiren even more suppressed than rivalling UI Goku(Spirit bomb level) was the strongest ki he felt even when he already felt Kefla's while distracted multiple times.


When Kelfa was powering up in SSJ2, Picoolo clearly claim she surpassed his prior level with the Japanese translation suggesting it to be more recent, which implies it being Goku's SSBKK. In the same fight you notice that UI fatigue Goku needed to power up a little to be confident enough to take her on which in prior even incited her to use more power according to Gohan which Picoolo confirms.

Actual Japanese translation of Picoolo's statement, in episode 116:
このパワー…先ほどまでだったら孫を超えてるかもしれん！
このパワー means "This power"
先ほど means "a little time ago"
まで means "until"
だったら means something like "if that's the case"
孫を超えてるかもしれん means "Might surpass Son [Goku]"

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Goku when he bathed in the Spirit Bomb is Initial Ultra Instinct Goku. That's the power he gained from bathing in the Spirit Bomb.

Whis didn't say that Kefla rivals Kaioken Goku. She rivals his first usage of Ultra Instinct as stated by Whis and surpasses it when she goes SSJ2 as said by Piccolo. I have initial UI Goku significantly stronger than the Spirit Bomb, but not multifold stronger, so SSJ Kefla kinda rivals both according to my own PL list. So the translation doesn't really matter.

[SayianBeyondGod]

Goku when he bathed in the Spirit Bomb is Initial Ultra Instinct Goku. That's the power he gained from bathing in the Spirit Bomb.

Whis didn't say that Kefla rivals Kaioken Goku. She rivals his first usage of Ultra Instinct as stated by Whis and surpasses it when she goes SSJ2 as said by Piccolo. I have initial UI Goku significantly stronger than the Spirit Bomb, but not multifold stronger, so SSJ Kefla kinda rivals both according to my own PL list. So the translation doesn't really matter.

That depends in how is translated as they're two interpretation, Goku was at a lowstate when he absorbed the spirit bomb as he was under rubble with no felt ki or when he fell in the spirit bomb. The other one which compared Kefla to the spirit bomb Goku used rather than Goku bathing, but you can still interpret that a role comparison.

It doesn't make sense for her to surpass episode 110 UI. Vados implies SSB at fullpower would be too much for her SSJ form, SSBKK was overpowering her, Vegeta states Jiren even more suppress than fighting UI Goku whom rivalled the spirit bomb was the strongest ki he felt(hence stronger than SSJ2 Kefla) and fatigue UI Goku overpowered her. Picoolo implies that SSJ2 Kefla surpassed Goku previous level or in Japanese a more recent either way can imply SSBKK. Despite that it doesn't make sense for Goku to ignite her when powering up less than her according to Gohan.

[Rally 07]

[quote="Amir"]

That's exactly the headcanon here. Just because Kefla said: ''I wanted to keep fighting you for a little longer, but this is a match. I'm knocking you off now'' doesn't mean she wasn't going full power and it also doesn't mean she didn't plan on knocking him off the stage, it's your own subjective interpretation which is not fact.

And it for sure doesn't prove she WAS absolutely going all out either. And I agree that it's subjective to think if she was holding back or not. But personal I do think she was indeed holding back mainly because she had a long fight with Super Saiyan Blue while getting stronger at fast rates as the characters in the benches and the tournament state; then she proceeds to take down Gokou in one kick. Why didn't she do this before, well it's probably, likely because Kefla was suppressed and holding back power until the end when Gokou transformed into Ultra Instinct. We've seen this before with Gokou. Super Saiyan 3 Gokou vs. Super Saiyan 2 Future Trunks. Gokou one shots Trunks, then proceeds on fight evenly with Black as a Super Saiyan 2.

[Hugo Boss]

The point is that Kefla’s energy as a Super Saiyan rivaled the power which clashed with Goku’s before and triggered Ultra Instinct. Goku is the same in both cases (exhausted to the point of almost losing consciousness), so it would be fair to assume the other side is similar too. Kefla being that strong makes sense, she might have just evolved in the middle of the fight like Caulifla and Kale did on their own before. In the end, it wasn’t really Goku’s energy that defeated her, but his decisive reaction.

[TheSaiyanGod]

First off Toppo was not suppressed at all, and no it doesn't. 17 wasn't even trying damage him, he tried to keep him busy until time runs out, playing it safe and smart. That was the purpose of that ki blast spam, Saying he couldn't harm Toppo's body when he wasn't trying to is invalid. And Toppo was still pushed back by the blasts and had to block it, and even then it slashed his uniform a bit, so that confirms 17 has enough power to damage Toppo. among many other things, like how his blast defeated him with Frieza's blast as well. When SSJB Goku fought Golden Frieza in ROF, Golden Frieza was a little bit stronger yet he dominated Goku and Goku didn't put a scratch on him, does that mean Goku's attacks were too weak to damage Golden Frieza? 17 knew fighting head on with Toppo would be similar to the fight I just mentioned because Toppo was a bit stronger, that was the reason he tried to stall him, not because his attacks are too weak to harm him, that's absurd.

And you continue to ignore my point about 17 holding off a full power blast from Toppo and somewhat matching it, keeping up with him in combat, tanking hits from Jiren, scratching Jiren, keeping up with him just like Goku and Vegeta...it's clearly obvious 17's power is just a bit below SSJB and Toppo.

Yes, Toppo was suppressed. He only used his maximum power in the energy dispute against the 17 (at that time, he said he would use all his justice against 17 and raise his Ki). So before that he was suppressed.

17 was trying to keep Toppo occupied precisely because he was not able to defeat him.
When he saw that it was six minutes to the end, he tried to hold Toppo until the tournament was over.
And like I said, all this was not enough to do even a relevant damage to Toppo. He just cut off some of his clothes (and it was nothing close to what Goku SSB did with a Kamehameha, in which in addition to leaving Toppo's uniform more damaged, it also left him panting and irritated).

And the case of Goku and Golden Freeza was different.
Goku was far inferior, but even so, when his blows really hit Freeza, they clearly caused pain to the emperor. In the case of 17, not even his attacks of Ki scratch Toppo.

17 could do absolutely nothing against Toppo's full-power attack, he was only able to counter when Freeza attacked Toppo.

Fallacy. Just because someone isn't clad with aura and isn't putting everything he has into one powerful blast and stuff doesn't mean he is actually suppressed in the melee hand to hand combat area. With that logic I can say 17 was suppressed as well because he didn't power up when he was fighting Toppo and even when he fired his blast he didn't even charge it up. With that logic I can say Toppo and Vegeta were suppressed and holding back because they didn't charge up ki when they fought h2h. I can also say Toppo was definitely trying and fighting seriously without holding back even before using his full power blast. Also did you really just compare a full power kamehameha to some regular ki blast spam in order to decide the differences between 17 and SSJB Goku? That's taking things out of context.

I know 17 was trying to keep him occupied because of that said reason, but like I said it doesn't man 17 couldn't damage Toppo with his attacks.
The case of Goku and Golden Frieza wasn't different in context at all. SSJB was enough to damage Frieza but Frieza was still sueprior so that's why he was still easily winning. You say that Goku actually managed to cause pain to Frieza while 17 couldn't, but on what exactly are you basing that? 17 never hit Toppo at all. They were just fighting with blasts mostly and Toppo blocked all the attacks so it's totally irrelevant. And you keep saying not even his ki attacks could scratch him even after I explained to you 3 times by now that the intention behind those ki blasts was to keep him occupied and Toppo still had to block them, taking things out of context won't spport your argument.
There was literally no example of Toppo getting hit with full power blows from 17 and just taking it on like it was nothing like you're trying to imply. He always makes sure to block 17's attacks.

Absolutely nothing? Now you are just making false conclusions. 17 literally held off the blast with his own blast and it only slowly pushed 17 back, but he still matched it somewhat, and when he reached the edge he stopped being pushed back for a bit, then Frieza joined in.
Toppo literally had his hands full and focused everything he had on 17 to the point he was completely defenseless. Even a tiny death beam from a non serious Frieza was enough to distract him so much thathe could no longer have an advantage against 17. If 17 was as weak as you think he is, Toppo would have just blown him away and turn around to fight Frieza, but he couldn't do it even after Frieza attacked, he still used both hands to hold off 17's blast and allowed Frieza to blast him non stop. And on top of that, when Frieza blasted Toppo with a more powerul blast, it didn't finish Toppo off, it only made Toppo lose the beam struggle and allow 17's blast to hit him which obvioulsy put the most damage.
There are differences in their strength, but little differences, similar to SSJB Goku and Golden Frieza in ROF.

Also in the latest episode Goku had a plan to keep Jiren busy so 17 would then use a big powerful blast to damage Jiren, so obviously Goku knows 17 has enough power to damage these SSJB + tiers when they don't block or dodge, something you keep deny for some reason.

No, Toppo says he's going to use all his justice in the 17 '' now ''.
And before that, he said he would end the fight in one stroke (because of the infinite energy of 17). This implied that he only used all his power in the power struggle, and 17 does not use his barrier, he tries to counter the blow but is pushed without being able to do anything. He was not '' holding his own '' right now.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Who said that Goku's Kamehameha was with full power? He did not even gasp (against Gattai Zamasu he broke his arms).

17 never hit Toppo because he could not. He was fighting alongside Gohan, and neither of them managed to strike. 17 still tried to sacrifice himself and fall with Toppo.
And again, why do you think the Ki attacks of 17 were just to keep Toppo busy? Because he was not able to defeat it or cause significant damage.

Freeza was as strong as Toppo, so it's obvious that his attacks would be enough for Toppo to lose his concentration and 17 get the upper hand.
This does not mean that 17 is SSB level

No, the difference between Goku SSB and Golden Freeza is not as big as Toppo's and 17's.
Goku with full power at least was able to change some blows and hit Freeza, 17 could not do this

[Rally 07]

If you agree with this base what you said in the latter here, then you should may as well concede to the point that SSBKK Goku had little stamina left when Kefla kicked him, so it was due running out of more stamina why he got knocked out. Yes he was able to turn into god forms, but it doesn't change the fact his stamina got worse when going so far as to go SSBKK and it's not really relevant at all.

But all the same the stamina issue and the fatigued argument still doesn't hold much. It's apparent that Gokou, even if he is fatigued, has more than enough stamina if he's using both his God forms and Kaioken regardless. You don't have to overcomplicate it.

Kefla never claimed she wasn't going all out she only claimed that she wanted the fight him more which doesn't mean she was holding back for the purpose of dragging out the fight. Goku already told Kefla to max out when he told her to pump things up in which they both powered up to their max. Nothing suggests the she was holding back, it contradicts the point that she thought Goku was a worthy opponent, Kefla letting herself get overpowered or the fact the it took her SSJ2 form to surpass the same SSBKK Goku that was overpowering her. The burden of proof is on your to prove this claim that you originally made. I don't think transforming into a SSJ means she's at full power but with the various statements across the show and the fact she powers up more than once proves she's using her max potential.

And it for sure doesn't mean Kefla was at full power either. Kefla obviously was suppressed. Mainly because Kefla had this long fight with Super Saiyan Blue Gokou and fights pretty on par with him; then proceeds on to take down Gokou with one kick. Why didn't she just one shot Gokou earlier? Well, she was probably suppressed honestly.

It's was already made evidently clear that the reason why she could hold her own was due to Goku being fatigue, so it's not redundant nor have you showed any burden of proof to disprove this.

Claiming Kefla stands a chance because he's fatigued is completely illogical. Mainly because Gokou was fatigued even while fighting Jiren for the first time. Gokou spammed Kaioken x 20 numerous times. And the Kaioken technique is known for being very stamina consuming and a huge strain on the body. This would've drained Gokou instantly. And then he goes on to praise a Genkidama and have a session where he pushed against it with not only Kaioken x 10 but Kaioken x 20. Then transforming into Ultra Instinct against Jiren for the first time, he probably couldn't access his full power due to him being fatigued due to him fighting earlier with Kaioken.

[quote="SayianBeyondGod']

So in other words, Whis isn't comparing Kelfa to the Genkidama, but to Goku when he bathed in the Genkidama. Though I heard this could be also translated to Kefla Ki compared directly to the spirit bomb but again, I don't see why it can't be interpret as role/ability comparison especially with what Whis says in the latter or the fact that he says "ki" instead of power. But in the end Whis is presuming something so he's not 100% or factual, just like when he though Caulifa was just a brawler but takes it back afterwards. Besides translation with further context of the scene or more credible feats to back it up, it was obvious Whis was talking about Kelfa having the spirit bomb role rather than literal power.[/quote]

Again you're overcomplicating it all. Plain and simple you don't have to go to these lengths to deny Super Saiyan Kefla being comparable to the Genkidama. Whis was never really directly comparing Kefla and the Genkidama, he instead said Kefla's energy rivals the Genkidama. Plain and simple dude.

If you believe she's Genkidama level at SSJ then you may as well concede to SSB full power Goku or SSBKK rivalling that level too especially when she never powered up when she kicked him, so she was still at the same level of power when Goku overpowered her. Another point to bring up is that, in episode 122 Vegeta implies that Jiren even more suppressed than rivalling UI Goku(Spirit bomb level) was the strongest ki he felt even when he already felt Kefla's while distracted multiple times.

Once again, the Genkidama was vaguely more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20. Mainly because Jiren struggled with it more than he did with Gokou.
Also in Super episode 122, Jiren might've been suppressing himself even more than he did against Gokou for the first time. Mainly because Gokou is more powerful than what he was in the special. Vegeta never really received any zenkai boost or get any stronger until that episode when Jiren manhandles him. But that's my own headcanon. I mean Vegeta's Super Saiyan Blue could very well have been stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Gokou. But that's another discussion for another day.

When Kelfa was powering up in SSJ2, Picoolo clearly claim she surpassed his prior level with the Japanese translation suggesting it to be more recent, which implies it being Goku's SSBKK. In the same fight you notice that UI fatigue Goku needed to power up a little to be confident enough to take her on which in prior even incited her to use more power according to Gohan which Picoolo confirms.

And Piccolo was more than likely talking about the previous Ultra Instinct. It's kinda hinted and implied. Mainly because this is backed up because Gokou began harnessing better movements and began mastering Ultra Instinct. And this is stated by Dysport and then Toppo states Gokou will grow much stronger. And later he starts to master the attack pattern of Ultra Instinct. And everyone is then surprised why Kefla couldn't hit Gokou. Despite the fact that they saw Gokou vs. Jiren. This could imply her power is enough to make Gokou evolve his Ultra Instinct.