HeroR wrote:
People keep saying the 'writers don't talk to each other in Super' when they clearly do and even then, they don't have control what happens in the episode. That's the director of the show. They just put together what happens.
And Toyo being 'one writer working closely with Toriyama' doesn't mean the writer quality is good and you only have to looked at the manga version of the Future Trunks Saga.
That is not how that works. The writer tells the director what he is suppose to show. The writer tells the actor what he suppose to say. If Toriyama wrote Goku kills Freeza, the director can't change that.
Writing is the least difficult yet most important part of a show.
They don’t. The director tells the writers what happens and the writer put it together. They don’t have creative control.
For Super, Toriyama says Freeza dies. The director fills in the details of how these events happened and break them into episodes. Then the writers put these elements together.
That doesn't sound right, nor does it explain why episodes have good direction but bad writing or vice versa if the main controller is the director.
HeroR wrote:
So you're talking a full generation jumped. If that's the case, I prefer they go more Jo Jo, than Boruto. Jo Jo don't restart the power scale between generation.
While Jo Jo didn’t do this, and I do love the series, I did created problems down the line. Part 5 has some rediculussly powerful stands with some of the most broken power ever requiring some pretty convenient things to happen for the heroes to win.
Even in Star Dust Crusad, The Worlds time power is only truly beaten because the main character pulls time stopping out his ass and gets a rage boost.
As far as I’m awaire, Stone Ocean has to dile back the characters powers at least in the beginning and Steel Ball Run did the same and even took place in an alternate timeline.
Naruto and abortion are not the best examples as I find that the series never could properly balance the generation power gaps. A better example would be One Piece.
Just from personal reading it tends to creates a lot less problems from a narrative perspective if you dile down the scale of things for the newbies. I fact due to how things have grown way of the chart between The Buu arc and Super, it’s practically maditory if they want to give Buu any realistic chance of progression. Even if he’s made as powerful as Kid Buu of the bat, he needs some time to get to the point that he can fight someone like current Frieza.
One Piece isn't really a generation story since we knew nothing about the old guard until much, much later in the story.
And who say they would make Buu important? Do you mean Uub?
For the fist point, while we don't know them personally there is a good sense of stuff happening for them the same way it happens for our heroe. They started out as their own ragtag bunchs who worked to become legends, Luffy and Co will oneday be in the same vain.
On the second.....yes. On that note I honestly feel that Uub could be a great main protganist is give the proper time to develop.
Lord Frieza wrote:
While Jo Jo didn’t do this, and I do love the series, I did created problems down the line. Part 5 has some rediculussly powerful stands with some of the most broken power ever requiring some pretty convenient things to happen for the heroes to win.
Even in Star Dust Crusad, The Worlds time power is only truly beaten because the main character pulls time stopping out his ass and gets a rage boost.
As far as I’m awaire, Stone Ocean has to dile back the characters powers at least in the beginning and Steel Ball Run did the same and even took place in an alternate timeline.
Naruto and abortion are not the best examples as I find that the series never could properly balance the generation power gaps. A better example would be One Piece.
Just from personal reading it tends to creates a lot less problems from a narrative perspective if you dile down the scale of things for the newbies. I fact due to how things have grown way of the chart between The Buu arc and Super, it’s practically maditory if they want to give Buu any realistic chance of progression. Even if he’s made as powerful as Kid Buu of the bat, he needs some time to get to the point that he can fight someone like current Frieza.
One Piece isn't really a generation story since we knew nothing about the old guard until much, much later in the story.
And who say they would make Buu important? Do you mean Uub?
For the fist point, while we don't know them personally there is a good sense of stuff happening for them the same way it happens for our heroe. They started out as their own ragtag bunchs who worked to become legends, Luffy and Co will oneday be in the same vain.
On the second.....yes. On that note I honestly feel that Uub could be a great main protganist is give the proper time to develop.
That is only true with some of them. Quite of few was strong and just got stronger.
Totamo wrote:
HeroR wrote:
Totamo wrote:That is not how that works. The writer tells the director what he is suppose to show. The writer tells the actor what he suppose to say. If Toriyama wrote Goku kills Freeza, the director can't change that.
Writing is the least difficult yet most important part of a show.
They don’t. The director tells the writers what happens and the writer put it together. They don’t have creative control.
For Super, Toriyama says Freeza dies. The director fills in the details of how these events happened and break them into episodes. Then the writers put these elements together.
That doesn't sound right, nor does it explain why episodes have good direction but bad writing or vice versa if the main controller is the director.
I don't believe you.
"I don't believe you" isn't an argument. Why don't you go and learn how production in anime works before saying stuff like this.
The first step is to write the episode scripts. Following the episodes synopsis/plans, the full scripts are written, by either one person for the whole series or by several different writers based on the outlines from the overall script supervisor (staff credit: series composition). The scripts are reviewed by the director, producers, and potentially the author of the original work before being finalised (after 3 or 4 drafts, often). The episode director, supervised by the overall director then takes this backbone of the episode and must plan out how it will actually look on screen. While the director has the final say and is involved at production meetings, the episode director has the most hands-on involvement in developing the episode. This stage is expressed as a storyboard (a visual script), and the storyboard marks the beginning of actual animation production.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
Having the final say as director and being able to say yes and no to everything is not the same thing as making these stories all by yourself though (as long as the director is not actually the one writing it, of course; sometimes that happens, too). And I know that because I highly invest time in the scenario writing of stuff like my favourite video games. And you can adapt that to anything, e.g. cooking.
"Citation needed."
"too lazy
feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"
Cetra wrote:Having the final say as director and being able to say yes and no to everything is not the same thing as making these stories all by yourself though (as long as the director is not actually the one writing it, of course; sometimes that happens, too). And I know that because I highly invest time in the scenario writing of stuff like my favourite video games. And you can adapt that to anything, e.g. cooking.
Never said it was. However, writers in Japan don't have much creative freedom. The director and producer calls the shots, and the writers just put it together. Like Toshi (sp) can't decide when Vegeta is ringed out or even how it happens.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
Ok, so lets really break down how production on anime and Super in particular is different.
1) There is either and overall concept or vision. In Super's case they have an outline that has been described by the producer himself as "barebones"
2) They then begin breaking out these points in sequences which make sense. These could be bulletpoint, synopsis etc.
3) In many western productions this happens as a team with team meetings. The writers, the director, etc are all in the same room and are fleshing out these bulletpoints and bouncing them off each other.
Each member is somewhat aware of the their assignment, their teammates assignments, and where they stand in relation to each other.
4) From what I've read and seen the writers of Super are freelance writers. They work much less as a team and a unit and are given individual assignments.
5) We have seen numerous comments from individual writers who say they do not know what or why another wrote an episode a certain way and that would have to be discussed with the writer of the episode.
6) The writing staff does not appear to be writing as a team, but rather handed their synopsis and asked to compose an episode. Yes the director and storyboarding attempt to tie it together cohesively, but there is only so much you can do if the writers do not appear to be intimately aware, by their own admission of the other writers reasons for making a writing choice.
Cetra wrote:Having the final say as director and being able to say yes and no to everything is not the same thing as making these stories all by yourself though (as long as the director is not actually the one writing it, of course; sometimes that happens, too). And I know that because I highly invest time in the scenario writing of stuff like my favourite video games. And you can adapt that to anything, e.g. cooking.
Never said it was. However, writers in Japan don't have much creative freedom. The director and producer calls the shots, and the writers just put it together. Like Toshi (sp) can't decide when Vegeta is ringed out or even how it happens.
Maybe for Super. Scenario Writers like Kazushige Nojima (Final Fantasy) are actually known for putting whole event chains that were not thought of by the directors, etc. (like the whole story of Zack in Final Fantasy VII, which was a complete surprise to them how it turned out to be). And while I understand your example with Toshio, it might not be the best. What you say can be understood similiarly to the whole "follow Toriyama-san's outline" thing. Of course writers follow outlines, incorporate what directors say, et cetera. But to give this stuff actually shape they have to bring elements into the story, they actually write a whole story that of course will never only consist of just what someone dictates them to do. That would be practically ghost writing, which of course is not even in Super the case. So I don't think the writers get enough credit, it being in anime or in video games or whatever. Whenever something bad happens in e.g. a video games someone most of the time blames the director. Of course the director has a high level f responsibility, that is what he is here for after all. But just because he/she directs and handwaves things either through or away that person cannot be fully credited or blamed for everything. It is depending on the appreciation or the blame not really respectful to those who got the shorter straw, especially if those people actually did invent something and all the higher ups did was nodding and say "that's okay it fits the idea, we take that". Or let's take shows for example. Vince Gilligan is the director of Breaking Bad. So often you hear him saying in interviews how he sat together with writers and others from his staff. Of course those people follow him in a certain way but they also create their own fair share of things and actually also can influence the higher up to grow fond of things the higher ups have never thought of. Another completely different example would be Pokémon, the games. The company once explained how they pretty much do not need to follow anything idea-wise what Nintendo would want - paraphrased by myself, don't quote me on that - because they were always doing what they (the Pokémon creating staff) wanted. Now, the Pokémon games of course have barely any story so that is not te best example but you can expand that when it comes to "ideas and incorporating them and who is the one who ultimately creates that stuff".
Last edited by Cetra on Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Citation needed."
"too lazy
feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"
Cetra wrote:
Maybe for Super. Scenario Writers like Kazushige Nojima (Final Fantasy) are actually known for putting whole event chains that were not thought of by the directors, etc. (like the whole story of Zack in Final Fantasy VII, which was a completely surprise to them how it turned out to be). And while I understand your example with Toshio, it might not be the best. What you say can be understood similiarly to the whole "follow Toriyama-san's outline" thing. Of course writers follow outlines, incorporate what directors say, et cetera. But to give this stuff actually shape they have to bring elements into the story, they actually write a whole story that of course will never only consist of just what someone dictates them to do. That would be practically ghost writing, which of course is not even in Super the case. So I don't think the writers get enough credit, it being in anime or in video games or whatever. Whenever something bad happens in e.g. a video games someone most of the time blames the director. Of course the director has a high level f responsibility, that is what he is here for after all. But just because he/she directs and handwaves things either through or away that person cannot be fully credited or blamed for everything. It is depending on the appreciation or the blame not really respectful to those who got the shorter straw, especially if those people actually did invent something and all the higher ups did was nodding and say "that's okay it fits the idea, we take that".
To nitpick, we're talking about two different mediums. Writer for video games in general have far more freedom than writers who worked on anime and the article I linked is specifically talking about anime production. I mean, you have individual writers for games who have pet projections and 100% creative control. That is how we get stuff like Kingdom Hearts. Also, a lot of directors for video games are also the story writers like for the Xeno games. This doesn't really happened for anime, although they are exceptions.
Ajay can tell you more about this.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
Cetra wrote:
Maybe for Super. Scenario Writers like Kazushige Nojima (Final Fantasy) are actually known for putting whole event chains that were not thought of by the directors, etc. (like the whole story of Zack in Final Fantasy VII, which was a completely surprise to them how it turned out to be). And while I understand your example with Toshio, it might not be the best. What you say can be understood similiarly to the whole "follow Toriyama-san's outline" thing. Of course writers follow outlines, incorporate what directors say, et cetera. But to give this stuff actually shape they have to bring elements into the story, they actually write a whole story that of course will never only consist of just what someone dictates them to do. That would be practically ghost writing, which of course is not even in Super the case. So I don't think the writers get enough credit, it being in anime or in video games or whatever. Whenever something bad happens in e.g. a video games someone most of the time blames the director. Of course the director has a high level f responsibility, that is what he is here for after all. But just because he/she directs and handwaves things either through or away that person cannot be fully credited or blamed for everything. It is depending on the appreciation or the blame not really respectful to those who got the shorter straw, especially if those people actually did invent something and all the higher ups did was nodding and say "that's okay it fits the idea, we take that".
To nitpick, we're talking about two different mediums. Writer for video games in general have far more freedom than writers who worked on anime and the article I linked is specifically talking about anime production. I mean, you have individual writers for games who have pet projections and 100% creative control. That is how we get stuff like Kingdom Hearts. Also, a lot of directors for video games are also the story writers like for the Xeno games. This doesn't really happened for anime, although they are exceptions.
Ajay can tell you more about this.
Please re-read my post. It is more than before. I did more than just a comparison between those two.
"Citation needed."
"too lazy
feel free to take it with grain of salt or discredit me altogether, I'm not losing any sleep"
Cetra wrote:
Maybe for Super. Scenario Writers like Kazushige Nojima (Final Fantasy) are actually known for putting whole event chains that were not thought of by the directors, etc. (like the whole story of Zack in Final Fantasy VII, which was a completely surprise to them how it turned out to be). And while I understand your example with Toshio, it might not be the best. What you say can be understood similiarly to the whole "follow Toriyama-san's outline" thing. Of course writers follow outlines, incorporate what directors say, et cetera. But to give this stuff actually shape they have to bring elements into the story, they actually write a whole story that of course will never only consist of just what someone dictates them to do. That would be practically ghost writing, which of course is not even in Super the case. So I don't think the writers get enough credit, it being in anime or in video games or whatever. Whenever something bad happens in e.g. a video games someone most of the time blames the director. Of course the director has a high level f responsibility, that is what he is here for after all. But just because he/she directs and handwaves things either through or away that person cannot be fully credited or blamed for everything. It is depending on the appreciation or the blame not really respectful to those who got the shorter straw, especially if those people actually did invent something and all the higher ups did was nodding and say "that's okay it fits the idea, we take that".
To nitpick, we're talking about two different mediums. Writer for video games in general have far more freedom than writers who worked on anime and the article I linked is specifically talking about anime production. I mean, you have individual writers for games who have pet projections and 100% creative control. That is how we get stuff like Kingdom Hearts. Also, a lot of directors for video games are also the story writers like for the Xeno games. This doesn't really happened for anime, although they are exceptions.
Ajay can tell you more about this.
Please re-read my post. It is more than before. I did more than just a comparison between those two.
I understand what you're saying, but based on what we know about Super and how the anime industry is put together at the moment, individual writers of Super simply don't have that kind of power. I can see them making suggestions to improved the script, but they don't have the power to just change anything at their leisure. So when a bad episode of Super happens, it's the fault of the writer for putting together a bad episode and the director for approving it or not giving the writer no much to work with. So I am not saying that the writer is blameless for a bad episode or they deserved no credit for a great written episode, but the writer isn't the 'be all' if you know what I mean.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
HeroR wrote: ... but the writer isn't the 'be all' if you know what I mean.
That is rarely the case in a product where writer and director are not the same person so yes, that's kinda obvious I would say.
You wouldn't know that reading this thread when people accuses the Super writers of not talking to each other and Super being the wild west. Like, when was the last time anyone here talked about the director here? It's always 'the writers sucked and don't understand Dragon Ball'.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
HeroR wrote: ... but the writer isn't the 'be all' if you know what I mean.
That is rarely the case in a product where writer and director are not the same person so yes, that's kinda obvious I would say.
You wouldn't know that reading this thread when people accuses the Super writers of not talking to each other and Super being the wild west. Like, when was the last time anyone here talked about the director here? It's always 'the writers sucked and don't understand Dragon Ball'.
But we have evidence of the writers not knowing what other writers are thinking from their own mouths...
And there have been several director switches, do you think production just stops between directors as they transition roles?
We also have admission from the producer that segments of the outline are barebones.
I'm not sure how much more they could say without saying "the project we are working on is a mess of production"
Further we aren't even sure of the hiring procedure for the writers. We don't know if knowledge of Dragonball was even a requirement as they are freelance. That's kind of issue.
People are saying things are not consistent and the writers do not understand the characters from the product they see.
THEN they ask questions about how it works and find out they use freelance writers who work remotely, they see statements from writers and producers about production and what they already saw is confirmed from what is said about the backend production.
ernesth100 wrote:Do ya'll think forms like SS-SS3 are gonna become irrelevant? I feel as if the only useful forms are gonna be SSG, SSB, and UI.
This question of yours makes no sense whatsoever. These forms have been irrelevant for decades and now SSJ Blue has become irrelevant aswell since almost anyone and their great great grandmother seems to be SSJ Blue tier today. Especially with the advent of UI, SSJ Blue is useless and obsolete.
ernesth100 wrote:Do ya'll think forms like SS-SS3 are gonna become irrelevant? I feel as if the only useful forms are gonna be SSG, SSB, and UI.
This question of yours makes no sense whatsoever. These forms have been irrelevant for decades and now SSJ Blue has become irrelevant aswell since almost anyone and their great great grandmother seems to be SSJ Blue tier today. Especially with the advent of UI, SSJ Blue is useless and obsolete.
Hm, fair enough point. But Goku was still using them even after attaining Blue to conserve stamina. So I was just wondering if that'd still be a strategy as he can always get stronger apparently and push those form further.
JulieYBM wrote:
ernesth100 wrote:Do ya'll think forms like SS-SS3 are gonna become irrelevant? I feel as if the only useful forms are gonna be SSG, SSB, and UI.
Unfortunately, all of the forms will continue to be used so as to promote merchandise. Bandai doesn't care if it hurts the narrative structure.
Well obviously, marketing is 90% of DB Super
Cetra wrote:
ernesth100 wrote:Do ya'll think forms like SS-SS3 are gonna become irrelevant? I feel as if the only useful forms are gonna be SSG, SSB, and UI.
For what? The last 3 episodes of this show?
Lol, I mean of they decide to bring them back in films or a future series.
TheMikado wrote:But we have evidence of the writers not knowing what other writers are thinking from their own mouths...
And there have been several director switches, do you think production just stops between directors as they transition roles?
We also have admission from the producer that segments of the outline are barebones.
I'm not sure how much more they could say without saying "the project we are working on is a mess of production"
Further we aren't even sure of the hiring procedure for the writers. We don't know if knowledge of Dragonball was even a requirement as they are freelance. That's kind of issue.
People are saying things are not consistent and the writers do not understand the characters from the product they see.
THEN they ask questions about how it works and find out they use freelance writers who work remotely, they see statements from writers and producers about production and what they already saw is confirmed from what is said about the backend production.
The outline being "barebones" doesn't say much and is not a sign of a production being messy. Besides, the rest you mentioned isn't new in the anime industry so I don't know why you're acting like it's the first time any of this happened? You think Toei, being decades old, suddenly forgot how to produce anime? Either you don't really know what you're talking about or you're believing what you want to believe.
ernesth100 wrote:Do ya'll think forms like SS-SS3 are gonna become irrelevant? I feel as if the only useful forms are gonna be SSG, SSB, and UI.
Unfortunately, all of the forms will continue to be used so as to promote merchandise. Bandai doesn't care if it hurts the narrative structure.
Exactly and IMO the original SSJ-SSJ3 forms are more appealing than the new ones.
Power levels are not just big numbers:
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
