"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[Lord Frieza]

Gohan gave up because Goku's one weakness was gone and he admitted defeat. He didn't ring himself out.

Ah Your right (not know why the image of Jackie’s self ringout was in my head when I thought of that) but then you also have the fact that had Gohan genuinely wanted to beat Goku he could have just thrown him out. He was trying to remind Goku of what he had told him about his tail, not actively trying to hurt or beat up his adopted child for the sake of winning.

In the end the result is the same as his fight with Hit, a victory due to the opposite’s better nature rather then anything on Goku’s part.

That isn't true with Hit since he rung himself out because he owed Goku one for throwing himself out of the ring.

What’s the difference? that’s his own choice, Hit didn’t have to throw the fight. He was not bound to any true law that stated he must and he was not actually weak enough to actually be ring out. Much like Gohan he could have won if he really wanted to but He through himself out due to his connection to Goku plus his own issues with Beerus and Champa. Goku did not beat him himself.

Arguing cirmantics dose not change the fact that Goku has only ever really won 1 tournament is a strait fight, with is other two being team match’s that were won both times due to his opponents better nature and in only one of those was Goku the last man standing.

Edit:

Goku being in a tournament is almost a guarantee he’s not going to win. Almost as much as it was that Yamaha would never make it past the quarter-finals.

[Firebolt]

So Jiren'll break his limit as well? Will he get Ultra Instinct?

I know this ending will undoubtedly make some mad, but I personally don't mind. If Super does come back, and all of the erased universes are somehow revived, Jiren will be Goku's rival, so I'm excited to see where that goes.

[Low Tone G]

So Jiren'll break his limit as well? Will he get Ultra Instinct?

I know this ending will undoubtedly make some mad, but I personally don't mind. If Super does come back, and all of the erased universes are somehow revived, Jiren will be Goku's rival, so I'm excited to see where that goes.

If Jiren is still there to be surpassed, I don't really see how could they keep the EoZ events as they were... Teasing Uub seems pointless now when Goku has already someone to catch up to. The EoZ had Goku like his was loosing the goal of his life but refound it in the person of Uub, but now being so close to that time Goku is more alive than ever in that sense...

I would be comfortable with Jiren to eliminate Goku if:
1. Goku somehow ran out of MUI
2. Jiren has UI as well

But something like Jiren is just that powerful without UI or Goku just slipped down from the ring is too lame...

[Zephyr]

His aura in the NEP certainly makes it appear that he also has mastered Ultra Instinct. Which wouldn't be terribly surprising, given that he's also seemingly been trained by a Hakaishin and Angel.

[fadeddreams5]

The animation, battles, updated soundtrack, and Goku's new form have compensated for everything else because they've actually given me desire to go back to specific scenes and rewatch them. Not a single other arc in this atrocious series has done this. Take the Goku Black arc, for example. Its story was more interesting, but it was also poorly structured with a bad case of repetition, a lame and underwhelming plot twist, and almost no memorable battles. Its best (i.e. Vegeta getting stabbed, Vegito vs Merged Zamasu, and the Trunks/Goku tag-team) were still very subpar compared to so many of the ToP battles (this is including the recruitment episodes btw).

Sorry, but some of your points are flawed. Future Trunks arc (and that's the correct name not Goku Black) also had decent animation, battles and great soundtrack (mostly still some of the best in Super). That's probably was your case, but I had way more fun rewatching Goku Black reveal, Trunks having a PTSD after seeing Goku, Trunks sparring with Goku, Black vs. Goku, Zamasu vs. Goku, the whole sequence: Black/Zamasu vs. the Saiyans and many other scenes than some of this current arc.
ToP also is poorly structured with a lot of repetition (characters constantly wasting time talking or ATATATATA fights and ki blast spams). Also apart from Goku and pals vs. Universe 11 and some Kale, Caulifla, Kefla stuff... There's not much really impressive on the fights of this arc.

The animation in the ToP arc has been superior in more cases than not. And at its best, no previous arc compares. Not really much of a debate there.

I call it the Goku Black arc. I know its official name, but I find it stupid.

The soundtrack keeps most of the tracks from the Goku Black arc, but has new, great, ones as well, making it better by default.

As for repetition, I won't argue that the ToP arc is horrifically repetitive, but such is the case of a tournament. I was referring to the repetition that hinders the overall plot in the Goku Black arc (i.e. going back and forth in time while Goku Black just floats around doing nothing).

The rest, I get. Those moments you mentioned are cool. But the best moments in the ToP arc are not just great, imo, but also equal or better than a lot from DBZ too. That keeps my interest. Whether you prefer one or the other is ultimately a matter of opinion. Regardless, these are the two best arcs from Super, hands down. My argument was against this being considered the worst...ever...in the whole franchise. I completely disagree; I personally view it as the best in Super. Nowhere near comparable to any major DBZ arc, but it's decent. Better than GT.

[Lord Frieza]

Just wondering, if it is Frieza’s victory in the end could the episode title be his last words to Goku?

That would be a pretty ominous way to end.

[OverHeaven]

His aura in the NEP certainly makes it appear that he also has mastered Ultra Instinct. Which wouldn't be terribly surprising, given that he's also seemingly been trained by a Hakaishin and Angel.

His aura is similar, but his facial expression is the exact opposite. Followed by this:
[spoiler][/spoiler]Nah, it's not. Unless he uses it later.

Also, I'm pretty sure Toppo is the one who trained with the angel. In the Special, It sounded like she doesn't know Jiren that well.

[Aman]

Hmm. The title of 131 is "A Miraculous Conclusion! Farewell, Goku!"

Freeza eliminating Jiren as the spoilers imply is a miracle? I'd argue that's anything but, given Freeza's intentions if he wins it all.

What could it mean...

Beats the Goku wins and they all lived happily ever after ending.

We know this isn't the end, it's just a break. Let's just hope they get their shit together for the next series with AT well ahead, so Toei have a better idea of the story.

[BlueBasilisk]

Depending on how stupid this conclusion is, this may be the point where I part ways with Dragon Ball. The heroes losing now and then is fine because it keeps things from being formulaic, but it needs to have some payoff eventually or it just turns into a Pokemon situation where the hero is constantly chasing a carrot you know he's never going to reach. Goku losing to Roshi and Tien paid off when he defeated Piccolo the third time around and became champion.

[JazzMazz]

I love the meltdown of Goku fanboys. So satisfying.


But this ending was the best possible. Here's why:

1) Finally a top shonen series shows that even the main character can't overcome every obstacle.

2) Just writes 2 main arc stories for the next series. The freeza storyline and Goku vs Jiren 3.

3) The endgame needed freeza win. He was brought back ONLY for this. Also he said he didn't want to deal with Jiren but he has to.

4) A villain getting the final laugh is a first. Zamasu did win but also was erased. Freeza won't be.

5) Classic toriyama subversion. Even the Main character with his best powerup since og ssj couldn't win. Hell even Toyotaro approved otherwise Toriyama would have changed it.

Who says that Freeza won? And Toriyama doesn't take direction from Toyo, just some suggestions.

And there are actually a few shonen series shows that even the main character can't overcome every obstacle. Ever read HxH or Death Note? Heck, or even Jo Jo? I mean, Pokemon is a shonen and it's built on Ash never winning the league.

Title is "Miraculous ending". Goku lost everyone thought u11 won. Freeza comes beats Jiren gets the win. Is that so hard to comprehend?

And if it's in more shonen then there's more reason to do this.
Besides, classic Toriyama subversion has given us great things all the time.

Truly this is the best arc since Namek for me....

Mate, I think its good rule to only ever subvert the expectations of a story in the same way once. Super has done so at least 5 times. At this point, it would be more subversive if Goku just got a clean victory. That's how badly these "twist" endings have been done to death.

Also, I've also suggested in my previous posts, potentially far more interesting character driven ways to still have Goku beat Jiren, with Freeza still coming out on top. Even in my idea, it has Goku losing because of his own hubris, as opposed to Jiren just beating the strongest most legendary form in existence that Goku has literally been building towards this entire tournament.

Depending on how stupid this conclusion is, this may be the point where I part ways with Dragon Ball. The heroes losing now and then is fine because it keeps things from being formulaic, but it needs to have some payoff eventually or it just turns into a Pokemon situation where the hero is constantly chasing a carrot you know he's never going to reach. Goku losing to Roshi and Tien paid off when he defeated Piccolo the third time around and became champion.

This is the end of Super, this is the last opportunity this show will have to provide a pay-off moment, and if spoilers are anything to go by, they've decided against that. I would argue that the heroes losing has become formulaic for the show at this point.

Also, Herms' has translated an interview with series director Ryota Nakamura(who will be directing and storyboarding 130), and they've revealed some really interesting stuff about Toriyama's original draft.
[spoiler]


Also this little tidbit.
D'oh: the God of Destruction Quitela was another of the characters Toriyama designed first, along with Jiren/Toppo/Dyspo. I accidentally left him off the list.[/spoiler]

[Saturnine]

I predicted ZenkaiBoost would be livid about what we found out from the spoilers about Goku. He didn't disappoint (in that other thread)

Guess what, Goku couldn't do what Vegeta failed to do as well. I'm actually quite happy with this, because the show is Goku-centric in another way than say, GT - a better way. We see Goku all the time, but we see him struggle, fall short and not uberwpn everyone (though he still does better than others). In GT we not only saw him all the time, but he was the only character who could do anything - and he did it all the time. I understand some people are bothered by Goku not succeeding, but that actually screams entitlement. I'm also not a big fan of the "But muh main character!" syndrome. Someone being the main char doesn't oblige the writers to make him win every time and always succeed. That's an out of universe reason anyway and it's quite cynical to cite it IMO.

[Xeogran]

In GT we not only saw him all the time, but he was the only character who could do anything

People act like Goku in GT solo'd all the villains by himself. Like wtf

He wouldn't turn SSJ4 without Pan's help thus lose to Baby for the second time
He wouldn't defeat Super 17 without Android 18's plan.
He wouldn't make the Universal Genki Dama to defeat Omega if not for the other planets' civillians, some of which were Pan's ideas to befriend.

But no, Goku went through the series effortlessly they say.

I understand some people are bothered by Goku not succeeding, but that actually screams entitlement.

We want to see the main character to win for once in a series fully focused around him, such entitlemet

[JazzMazz]

I predicted ZenkaiBoost would be livid about what we found out from the spoilers about Goku. He didn't disappoint (in that other thread)

Guess what, Goku couldn't do what Vegeta failed to do as well. I'm actually quite happy with this, because the show is Goku-centric in another way than say, GT - a better way. We see Goku all the time, but we see him struggle, fall short and not uberwpn everyone (though he still does better than others). In GT we not only saw him all the time, but he was the only character who could do anything - and he did it all the time. I understand some people are bothered by Goku not succeeding, but that actually screams entitlement. I'm also not a big fan of the "But muh main character!" syndrome. Someone being the main char doesn't oblige the writers to make him win every time and always succeed. That's an out of universe reason anyway and it's quite cynical to cite it IMO.

Its true that the writers don't have an obligation to make one of the main characters win everytime. It is however their job(namely Toriyama's in this case), for them to tell a compelling and satisfying story with a decent payoff for the characters involved. Goku not winning, kind of makes a lot of his struggles and tribulations feel pointless, since there is no real payoff to them. Having Goku flat lose to Jiren would kind of be like Goku losing to Freeza in the Namek arc after turning Super Saiyan, its not a satisfying way to draw a climax to your story, espicially one where the hero is constantly getting beaten down so much, that he hardly every earns a clean victory using his own merits.

[OLKv3]

I knew Kale came from Toei

[Michsi]

Also, Herms' has translated an interview with series director Ryota Nakamura(who will be directing and storyboarding 130), and they've revealed some really interesting stuff about Toriyama's original draft.
[spoiler]


Also this little tidbit.
D'oh: the God of Destruction Quitela was another of the characters Toriyama designed first, along with Jiren/Toppo/Dyspo. I accidentally left him off the list.[/spoiler]

I find this interesting. So Kale and Caulifla weren't in the original draft, and the magical girl joke wasn't Toriyama's idea either. Also his comment how the ending could set up future stories is similar to what Toshio Furukawa mentioned. This is just going to add fuel to the "series is returning" fire.
It's interesting how they mention Piccolo, since I am super curious if his elimination will happen in the manga like it did in 119. I might have to apologize to that episode's writer...
Or if Ribiranne vs 18 is going to happen at all.

Regarding Buu, part of me thinks he was replaced simply because it would've been too hard to work around all his magic abilities.

[Lord Frieza]

(If Frieza wins and gets his wish)

Things could turn out ok after a fashion. If he becomes or has power over the Omni-King he could decide to restore all the universe. While Zen-Oh found it a chore, Frieza could not care about mortal levels and would much rather prefer to have more to rule over. He then goes away because as with becoming a GoD there's stuff you need to do before get the job proper. Forms to sign, I.D., register bank details, that CRB check in not gonna forge itself and lets not even get started on applying for a company parking space.

[Hawk9211]

I was preparing myself for a disappointing ending and freeze.Now,I don't know if I should be happy or sad.

I knew Kale came from Toei

I was sceptical about Saiyan girls,but I was sure that ribrianne joke was from toei.

[OverHeaven]

I knew Kale came from Toei

I was sceptical about Saiyan girls,but I was sure that ribrianne joke was from tori.

This explains why they're transformed from the beginning in the manga.

[OLKv3]

Also, Herms' has translated an interview with series director Ryota Nakamura(who will be directing and storyboarding 130), and they've revealed some really interesting stuff about Toriyama's original draft.
[spoiler]


Also this little tidbit.
D'oh: the God of Destruction Quitela was another of the characters Toriyama designed first, along with Jiren/Toppo/Dyspo. I accidentally left him off the list.[/spoiler]

I find this interesting. So Kale and Caulifla weren't in the original draft, and the magical girl joke wasn't Toriyama's idea either. Also his comment how the ending could set up future stories is similar to what Toshio Furukawa mentioned. This is just going to add fuel to the "series is returning" fire.
It's interesting how they mention Piccolo, since I am super curious if his elimination will happen in the manga like it did in 119. I might have to apologize to that episode's writer...
Or if Ribiranne vs 18 is going to happen at all.

Regarding Buu, part of me thinks he was replaced simply because it would've been too hard to work around all his magic abilities.

18 vs Ribrianne is still happening, since the manga showed the staredown. I don't think it'll be about love though. Giant Ribrianne was definitely from Toei

Also, Freeza lending Goku energy not being in the outline most likely means the stamina nonsense was Toei, we'll see if Toyo uses it too

[Kataphrut]

So, this interview might explain that whole thing of Jiren being in the original preview for the arc but being replaced by Toppo at the Zen Exhibition match. Apparently Toei had planned to make Jiren into an over-the-top Justice Man, but Toriyama told them no and they had to switch it to Toppo. Maybe they'd already put Jiren in the trailer when they got told to drop it. Jiren's personality and backstory are all Toriyama, and he took it seriously enough to put his foot down. That's...kind of sad.

We haven't seen Toriyama's original designs for Ribrianne or the three Pride Troopers have we? I hope they release them, it'd be interesting to see. With the exception of Dyspo, they're not as skinny as we typically get from him these days.

Caulifla and Kale not being in the original draft is surprising given how prominent they are in both the anime and manga. Kale being a Toei character and Caulifla being Toriyama isn't surprising though, you can tell instantly. Caulifla's design looks almost stylised and very expressive (also WAY more obviously skinny) while Kale's base form design looks very standard. I'm kind of disappointed the "female Broly" idea was ALL Toei though. I kind of wanted it to be some King Solomon situation where one executive is asking Toriyama to create a female Super Saiyan while another is asking for a canon Broly and he just goes "you shall have...both".