Super Episode 130 (18 March 2018)

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I find it funny there were no reactions from the Zeno and Grand Priest this episode, when this was the most hype episode ever.

And that was probably one of the best aspects of that episode. Not even a single scene with those annoying brats.

Knowing them, they're probably reacting too hard to be safe, so Daishinkan put them in a bubble for them to fanboy in peace

[jeffbr92]

Take a look at this, someone has uploaded a video of the episode being shown in a bar in Mexico and everyone goes nuts watching it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=307s&v=phbGt_7Qvj8

And people still doubts that the Latino fanbase of DB is the biggest? lol

This video is just great, love their reactions!

[Deathbeam]

How would you feel if he became a GoD?

He would be fit for the role but we would lose sight on him.
He would stay in his "realm" and it would be unlikely to see him again.

It would be more intriguing for the audience to have him fight (and evolving) alongside Goku Vegeta and the others.
But not as a "fix" team member but as a sort of unpredicable factor that can come in support unexpected.
Not to mention his witty commentaries.

Example:
Goku is struggling against an opponent and is having the lower hand when a death beam comes out of nowhere and a voice says "you still playing around my friend?"

[Deathbeam]

I am certain Freeza will win.

He hasn't done much all tournament and apparently the movie has a focus on him.

Goku and 17 wouldn't set anything up with their wishes, and in the manga Goku said he'd give the balls to 17. So that means he's not winning.

I can see Freeza ringing out Goku and 17 at last second.

Or maybe Jiren will beat both so that there's some tension remaining. 17 and Goku are hurt, Freeza seems ok.

Frieza is pretty beaten up too.
Was trashed by Toppo who described him as covered in wounds.
At this point, he and 17 seem to be equal in power, stamina and determination.
A pretty good tag team...and I can see why some fake spoiler hinted to a sort of "acnowledgement" of Frieza towards 17 for being the only one who hasn't ever judged him.

[SHINOBI-03]

Ah, the good ol' "His body can't handle this great power" cliche putting an end to the battle. It was great and splendid animation that's always saved for this occasion.

And yeah, we all knew Freeza is coming back to play a part at the end. But 17? That's a surprise.

[jeffbr92]

And yeah, we all knew Freeza is coming back to play a part at the end. But 17? That's a surprise.

Unfortunately, not a pleasant one.

[lancerman]

This is the same thing Dragonball has always done, what the Spirit Bomb scenes are about, what characters giving Goku energy is about, and what Goku always does. He'll always save and believe in his friends and fight for them. This is what Dragonball is about.

That really isn't what DB is about though, save for a few specific scenes here and there. Goku never actively used his friends as a direct motivator, in the sense that we the audience never saw it, and the show didn't choose to dwell on it like this. We could ASSUME that Goku was fighting for his friends against Cell, for instance, of course, but they didn't need to have some big melodramatic speech about it.

It's actually one of those things that people take for granted, in that DB spawned the shonen craze, and a lot of those shows that were inspired by DB went on to rely a lot on this "the power of friendship" trope. But if you actually go back and pay attention, DB itself never really placed much weight on this trick. The show never really fell back on this cliche, and those rare times it did, it amounted to jack shit, like when Goku thinks of his family and fires a KKx20 at Freeza.

The problem here is that some people want to do revisionist history and either twist or stretch certain sems to mean something completely else. The Cell Saga is a good example as it is explicitly mentioned Goku is not fighting for the Earth or his friends, the same thing happens during the Buu Saga where the fate of the universe is on the line and all Goku can focus on is the momdnt of the fight and nothing else with Vegeta's inner dialogue stating he's fighting for himself and not for anything like love, peace, family, or friends where his attitude allows him to push his own limits and so on.

This consistent character trait exist through out db/z and most of DBS, hell, Whis in the previous episode mentioned this very thing abouy Goku's nature, but of course since it conflicts with the current episode people want to try and bend history and say deep down Goku was a hero with a heart od gold that fought against oppression and for the little guy and etc.

Yeah, no, don't twist Goku into something he's not is all I'm saying.

a lot of people would argue that the Cell arc was the out of character anomaly arc.

Goku only stormed the Red Ribbon Army base for his friend Upa so he could get all the Dragon Balls and ressurect Bora.

Goku's entire motivation in the King Piccolo arc was that Kuriren was killed and his friends were getting murdered and he was pissed.

Goku was fighting to save the Earth in the Saiyan arc and was rushing back to save his friends and he was legit terrified of the Saiyans power.

Kuriren's death in the Freeza arc was what prompted Goku to turn into a Super Saiyan and Kuriren was a soft spot for Goku that entire fight "are you talking about Kuriren".

Gohan in the Cell arc was prompted into SSJ2 by 16's speech about fighting to preserve life.

The Cell saga by comparison is almost notable for how ridiculous Goku's stance in it was even by his standards. And by the Buu arc Goku was acting stupid at the beginning but he was the one begging Vegeta to fuse to end everything once and for all. Goku only overstepped his bounds when he was of the opinion that he could beat Boo on his own and that others could as well.

It was never as heavy handed as it was in this episode, but it's mistake to say that Goku's friends weren't motivating factors in him pushing himself to become stronger and to defeat enemies. I think some people fell in love with the idea of the selfish fighter Goku and sometimes mistakenly over push that aspect.

[lancerman]

I can't believe how hard some of you are missing the point. It doesn't matter whether Goku has always fought for his friends or not. The point is that it was never verbalized to this extent because Dragon Ball avoids this kind of kitsch storytelling and unorganic drama. These melodramatic, over-the-top "MY NAKAMA" (or "MY PAST" in Jiren's case) speeches that culminate in nonsensical power boosts are something that the series has never done before and you'd pardon someone if you took the script of this episode, changed the names around, and they'd mistake it for an episode of One Piece or Fairy Tail.

You're missing the point though. In other instances it didn't need pointing out because Goku wasn't fighting a character like Jiren who actually is a misguided hero whose whole personality is based around shunning connection because it's failed him in the past and that his own self motivation was everything and all that mattered. Jiren reached a higher level specifically because his trauma wills him to self motivate, Goku pushed himself to a higher level because his friends were in danger and that makes him dig deeper as it has in the past. Because you had two conflicting viewpoints it was pointed out.

You're saying something was treated differently in the past without realizing the situations in the past didn't merit it in the same way as the present where the set up is a character who diametrically opposes that thought.

[Lord Beerus]

You know, I think that my biggest issue with this episode isn't with 17 coming back, but just in terms of how poorly it was handled. Just imagine if after we see Goku saved the camera slowly pans to 17. Everyone would be expecting Freeza, but instead it's the "holy shit" reveal of 17 still being alive.

Yeah I definitely would’ve preferred that now that you mention it. Would’ve been such a curveball because we all expected it to be Freeza.

I don't mind that it was Freeza making the save. It reaffirms that he needs Goku to stay in this tournament for as long as possible.

[dbzfan7]

It's also teeth grindly annoying how they also backpeddle on last episode where Goku delibarately not caring about anything but the battle itself is what helps him further master UI but now he's getting powerful by doing the opposite? I don't give a fuck what excuse you want to throw at this show, that's an insult to everyone who's paying even one iota of attention to what people are doing and saying.

Yeah that really is a slap in the face. So that makes the second time Whis' big spiel about UI is a load of bullshit

[lancerman]

Ah, the good ol' "His body can't handle this great power" cliche putting an end to the battle. It was great and splendid animation that's always saved for this occasion.

And yeah, we all knew Freeza is coming back to play a part at the end. But 17? That's a surprise.

17's actually the more interesting fighter to survive now. Goku's done. Freeza's running on close to empty and his Golden form isn't enough to stop Jiren. 17 with his infinite energy might actually pose the greatest problem. Everyone's worn out, but one guy can be a little creative in this and not worry about falling apart.

[Kaio_Krazy]

Absolutely adored this episode, from an animation perspective. I couldn't give two shits about the story at this point. I mean, how many episodes have we been in the final minute of the ToP again?

Holy criminy though, the fights in this episode were out of this world! That Shida cut was pure sex. Tate killed it in the beginning too. Here's hoping the movie will look half as good as this episode.

[Michsi]

3. Endowed Power: Actually receiving a tangible power boost from hope and love. The ultimate cheapening effect. I admit I might be being too sensitive about this; it might not have actually happened this episode. But when Goku's speed improves and Piccolo says "It's because of our hope"...my frustration thinking about how absurd an idea that is kills it for me. I become Jiren in these moments. Meaningless! Ridiculous!

I don't think it's that. I honestly think that the prospect of everyone dying just pushed him further, it's just relayed to us in a super poetic way because it needs to stand in contradiction to Jiren's world view. Not to mention that Toppo's reaction help drive home another point "Oh, so he does care about others." This, again, is to place him as Jiren's opposite. Jiren is a hero, but he doesn't care about others; Goku isn't a hero, but he does care about the people in his life.

Similar to what you've said about a convert's zeal, I feel like DBS has been doing something like that too. Toriyama has mentioned at least once how he was never quiet satisfied with how the anime previously portrayed Goku, in that he was bit too righteous, and it seemed DBS was out to correct that. As a result, they may have gone just a bit overboard with his careless, selfish side. When he does show feelings of care and affection, we're all a bit surprised.

*Another problem I have with nakama power is that it often feels patronizing to the nakama characters. Sometimes it makes it feel like their only purpose is to be a nakama battery. And maybe it is, but to have them acknowledge and accept that while smiling and nodding along?

Comes with the shonen territory, I'm afraid. You mentioned that Goku's not the only one to receive a power boost from thinking of loved ones, and yet why is he the only that makes it this far, and to that I can only give a cynical response : because he is Goku. The friendship boost was just that a boost; even without that he is still at least a level above the rest in terms of pure skill and power.

[Doctor.]

I can't believe how hard some of you are missing the point. It doesn't matter whether Goku has always fought for his friends or not. The point is that it was never verbalized to this extent because Dragon Ball avoids this kind of kitsch storytelling and unorganic drama. These melodramatic, over-the-top "MY NAKAMA" (or "MY PAST" in Jiren's case) speeches that culminate in nonsensical power boosts are something that the series has never done before and you'd pardon someone if you took the script of this episode, changed the names around, and they'd mistake it for an episode of One Piece or Fairy Tail.

You're missing the point though. In other instances it didn't need pointing out because Goku wasn't fighting a character like Jiren who actually is a misguided hero whose whole personality is based around shunning connection because it's failed him in the past and that his own self motivation was everything and all that mattered. Jiren reached a higher level specifically because his trauma wills him to self motivate, Goku pushed himself to a higher level because his friends were in danger and that makes him dig deeper as it has in the past. Because you had two conflicting viewpoints it was pointed out.

You're saying something was treated differently in the past without realizing the situations in the past didn't merit it in the same way as the present where the set up is a character who diametrically opposes that thought.

I get the idea. I'm saying it was executed poorly due to how 1. how over-theatrical it was, 2. how generic and played out a concept it is, and 3. how it disregards all forms of logic and rules. You can present two conflicting viewpoints without battering them down the viewer's head. Majin Vegeta vs Goku is a good example of an interesting character conflict that isn't played out to the point of annoyance and where logic isn't thrown out of the window for the sake of the spectacle. Vegeta's inner conflict is verbalized in a way that was actually quite new to Dragon Ball at the time (and still is) but it was original and didn't feel completely dissonant with the way Vegeta had been portrayed up to that point. As others have pointed out, the theme in this episode completely contradicts Whis' spiel last episode.

[Spider-Man]

#17 comeback was so underwhelming and the ultimate battle is played too much.

The best thing in this was Goku's speech about him not recognizing himself as hero they did a good job on that.

Overall this episode was average,the fight and animation was great but the writing on the other hand was meh.

[Nickolaidas]

Goku's done.

Don't bet on it.

[8bitdee]

Fans Pre-130: "Super hasn't given Goku any character development at all. He's still the same dickhead he's always been, it's sooooo annoying!"

Fans post-130: "WTF Toei,show some consistency for fuck's sake. Keep Goku the same he's always been!"

[KameNinja45]

Fans Pre-131: "Super hasn't given Goku any character development at all. He's still the same dickhead he's always been, it's sooooo annoying!"

Fans post-131: "WTF Toei,show some consistency for fuck's sake. Keep Goku the same he's always been!"

Ignoring the last sentence, because people don't want Goku to stay the same, Goku having character development whilst staying consistent is entirely possible.

[8bitdee]

Fans Pre-131: "Super hasn't given Goku any character development at all. He's still the same dickhead he's always been, it's sooooo annoying!"

Fans post-131: "WTF Toei,show some consistency for fuck's sake. Keep Goku the same he's always been!"

Ignoring the last sentence, because people don't want Goku to stay the same, Goku having character development whilst staying consistent is entirely possible.

And this was consistent. Goku is fighting for his friends and family so they don't get erased, just how he's always protected them before and when Jiren attacked them his anger came out that beat Jiren to a pulp just how his anger came out when Krillin that turned him initially into a SSJ.

People are blowing this shit completely out of proportion. It's like the Man of Steel "omerggerd Superman shouldn't kill!" complaining all over again. Except that compared to that scene this doesn't change Goku's character.

People are just complaining that we get about 30 seconds of flashbacks because apparently that's a bad thing. Because DB shouldn't copy from "lesser series" (cough One Piece is magnitudes better storyteller than DB cough). Because DB has "NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE!" and therefore shouldn't try to do anything new and just stick to the same old formula because "I haven't grown up and neither should this cartoon."

[Doctor.]

People are just complaining that we get about 30 seconds of flashbacks because apparently that's a bad thing. Because DB shouldn't copy from "lesser series" (cough One Piece is magnitudes better storyteller than DB cough). Because DB has "NEVER DONE THIS BEFORE!" and therefore shouldn't try to do anything new and just stick to the same old formula because "I haven't grown up and neither should this cartoon."

You can just reply to me instead of throwing passive-aggressive jabs hoping I wouldn't see it.