I *think* what 18 meant was, that 17 had the chance to wish for a life of luxury for his wife and family in order to give them something better than a cabin in the woods. Materialistic, sure, but deep down she asked him if he was ok for denying his family a perfect life. And 17's response was, "I'm fine saving the other universes - my family will just have to make do with my piss-poor paying job". As for the universes staying erased, she didn't considered them 17's responsibility - their erasure was on Zeno's whims, and it's not like she had any kind of relationship with them - they're literally alternate realities.
It's not exactly the best characterization for 18, but it's not as assholish as some of us make it out to be. In my opinion, always.
SonReggie wrote:A measure of how good an episode is, for me, how re-watchable it is.
The Goku/Freeza + 17 fight in this episode never gets old. I've lost count of the number of times have re-watched it. It hit all the right notes for me and is, in my opinion, the best fight the franchise ever gave us.
LightBing wrote:What are the odds the anime added the "Ultra Instinct is gone" bit just to have Goku and Vegeta be equals at the end?
That might be one of the reasons for it, but another thing is that Goku's personality changes a lot when he goes Ultra Instinct. He's quieter, more brutal. He doesn't appear to be having fun like he usually does when fighting. Making Ultra Instinct something he can only access when pushed to his limits makes it so he can continue fighting as his fun, reckless self in the future. I'm sure it'll come back again some day, but I doubt it'll be something he'll turn on and off like a switch like he does with Super Saiyan Blue. Vegeta's new Evolution form also allows him to fight on equal footing with Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku, so I guess that form isn't obsolete afterall.
TobyS wrote:Yes the real world metaphysical concept of the immortal soul can be measured by whether people complained about a children's cartoon show.
Or was being hyperbolic about sad people whining about good stuff and killing everyone else's buzz.
So you weren't serious then? A straight answer would've sufficed, don't see the need for sarcasm.
Your second phrase confused me though, "sad people"? I don't see anyone "whinnig" about good stuff, which that itself is completely subjective, and why would criticizing something they didn't entirely enjoy kill everyone's buzz?
I'll quickly give my thoughts on this, though only briefly so as to attempt to not derail things.
Around here where certain users are more prominently vocal in threads than in other corners of the world, there can be a bit of an echo effect where their minority criticisms can begin to be more greatly noticed than those of positively thrilled folks. In turn, this can give the illusion that there's a much larger negative stigma around the series than the actual numbers overall would suggest, which can seriously kill the enjoyment of folks who earnestly enjoy the series in all of its glory, flaws and all.
The few ruin things for the many, in a sense.
That's not to say their criticisms are unfounded, either. It's just that when their voices compound and bounce off each other, it can create a cascade effect that makes perception of the series seem worse than it really is, amplifying the negativity they may produce artificially.
emperior wrote:Zeno has always been quite mysterious chracterisation-wise. When he first gets introduced he acted quite mature, although he already showed some traits of his naivety and innocence. The second time we saw him he was already quite different, acting a lot like a child in Goku's presence and when he asks him to be his friend. Then when Future Zeno is summoned in the future, he doesn't give a shit about the whole multiverse and erases it just because Zamasu was annoying him. Afterwards both the Zenos accept Goku's request to hold up a tournament, and decide it's also an occasion to erase the universes because there are too many. Now we are told they would have erased everything if the winner's wish wasn't a selfless one, and Whis comments that perhaps there is something only mortals can change, which foreshadows something more important happening in the future?
Is it possible that Zeno, child-like as he seems to be, actually has some sort of hidden agenda? The guy always has his guards by his side, and we still don't know anything about his origins, nor do we know about the Angels which seemingly come from a completely different realm than other Gods. But sometimes Zeno decides to act like some sort of wise God, and the Daishinkan too seems to be very wise - did they also predict the wish to bring back the other 6 universes Zeno erased in the past, if it has happened? Or will it happen as some sort of collateral they didn't think or care about?
I don't get if Toriyama is constantly changing his mind about where to take modern Dragon Ball's theme about deities, which would explain Zeno's messy characterisation, or if he actually has a clear idea of what exactly will happen in the future in regards to this whole Gods hierarchy he has created.
One thing is sure, among the mortals Goku shouldn't have anymore foes apart from Jiren who should still be stronger than he is if he can't use Ultra Instinct. His next mortal enemy will probably be from the erased universes/the 4 universes which didn't participate in the Tournament of Power.
I think it would be great if Zeno has a hidden agenda and was pulling an act all along, but right now it just seems like a bunch of changing direction on his characterization.
At the end of the day,it's toriyama writing the story's blueprints and back shadowing is one of his strongest skills.
Why power levels are important?
Spoiler:
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Good ending in my opinion. I thought Universe 6 and 11 would only be wished back, but they are able to pull it off pretty well. I did not see Whis able to make Freeza alive again. I personally think Freeza will rebuild his Empire, but probably leave Earth alone since he knows he can't win against UI Goku at this rate.
Deathbeam wrote:
goku the krump dancer wrote:
- If anything I'm most shocked about Freeza being alive.. for now anyway. Hopfully new dude in the Movie this year kills him so that there's still some wiggle room for GT to fit with this time line lol.
GT is lost.
Otherwise we would have seen kid goku blue and vegeta blue in the series.
I don't get why people still want GT to be link with the series still. GT is a thing of the past, people should move on already. Also having Freeza be killed off in the next movie would be a bad idea since they just brought him back.
I was nervous about this episode having so little time to resolve so much, but once all was said and done, it proved to be an incredibly satisfying conclusion. It spent just enough time on the things that needed that needed it or without selling anything short. Having the return to Earth be mostly montage was a great decision, and there were plenty of open doors and loose threads to keep things going for a long time. And finally link things to Neko Majin, apparently.
Well done Toriyama, Toei, and everyone involved, and huge props to 17!
Michsi wrote:By far the greatest annoyance is how they actually wrote 18 genuienly asking 17 if he is alright with choosing to save the universes instead of having his cruise ship . What's with her characterization in this arc, it's been all over the place and mostly not good.
To be fair, 18 was always a shallow character so her line here wasn't out of place despite being bizarre since she's been characterised as a materialistic person in general.
I actually don't mind this. 18 has proven to be selfish and in a weird way that extends to her friends getting what they want as well. She has no attachment to the other universes so she'd want to see her brother get the prize over that.
I am pretty annoyed by the bizarrely inconsequent (& all over the place) manner her character/personality has been showcased on dbs.
Even though she finally got some time in the spotlight, there still is a lot of work to do until she comes across as strong as she did when we got to know her and 17 during the androids saga.
I doubt Ultra Instinct is gone for good. They won't make a new form and never use it again. I would imagine they will have a way not to overuse it to avoid making Goku to powerful. We all thought that the Super Saiyan God form would not be used again after Battle of Gods and it end up returning.
dbzfan7 wrote:Wasn't the remainder of the Freeza force killed in Resurrection F? How is there more of them?
He probably hire more new people or some members of Freeza's forces didn't go to Earth in AGE 779.
LightBing wrote:What are the odds the anime added the "Ultra Instinct is gone" bit just to have Goku and Vegeta be equals at the end?
I don't think that's the case. Goku still can't access Ultra Instinct at will and this will follow in the movie too, unless in the time between episode 131 and the movie events Goku will be able to truly master Ultra Instinct.
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”
What I consider canonical
Spoiler:
Dragon Ball Manga
Jaco: The Galactic Patrolman
Yo! Son Goku and friends return
Battle of Gods and Resurrection “F”
Dragon Ball Super Manga + Movies
Lore from Toriyama
Dragon Ball DAIMA
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
emperior wrote:Zeno has always been quite mysterious chracterisation-wise. When he first gets introduced he acted quite mature, although he already showed some traits of his naivety and innocence. The second time we saw him he was already quite different, acting a lot like a child in Goku's presence and when he asks him to be his friend. Then when Future Zeno is summoned in the future, he doesn't give a shit about the whole multiverse and erases it just because Zamasu was annoying him. Afterwards both the Zenos accept Goku's request to hold up a tournament, and decide it's also an occasion to erase the universes because there are too many. Now we are told they would have erased everything if the winner's wish wasn't a selfless one, and Whis comments that perhaps there is something only mortals can change, which foreshadows something more important happening in the future?
Is it possible that Zeno, child-like as he seems to be, actually has some sort of hidden agenda? The guy always has his guards by his side, and we still don't know anything about his origins, nor do we know about the Angels which seemingly come from a completely different realm than other Gods. But sometimes Zeno decides to act like some sort of wise God, and the Daishinkan too seems to be very wise - did they also predict the wish to bring back the other 6 universes Zeno erased in the past, if it has happened? Or will it happen as some sort of collateral they didn't think or care about?
I don't get if Toriyama is constantly changing his mind about where to take modern Dragon Ball's theme about deities, which would explain Zeno's messy characterisation, or if he actually has a clear idea of what exactly will happen in the future in regards to this whole Gods hierarchy he has created.
One thing is sure, among the mortals Goku shouldn't have anymore foes apart from Jiren who should still be stronger than he is if he can't use Ultra Instinct. His next mortal enemy will probably be from the erased universes/the 4 universes which didn't participate in the Tournament of Power.
I think it would be great if Zeno has a hidden agenda and was pulling an act all along, but right now it just seems like a bunch of changing direction on his characterization.
At the end of the day,it's toriyama writing the story's blueprints and back shadowing is one of his strongest skills.
Absolutely, just the Android/Cell saga alone shows that. But it’s also why it makes Zeno thing so jarring. If he ties it to some special mission that he needed the test the mortals for that involve both morality and battle ability I’ll eat words. I make me sad because these doesn’t feel like his style of resolution.. well it half does. The plot point feels Toriyama like but the execution doesn’t.
I think the thing that bothers me the most as that nothing really came out of the tournament except for Freeza being alive again (which is annoying to me tbh).
None of the universes were erased and Goku still can't really access UI at will so he'll still have to train for it again in the future. So there doesn't seem like a lot was accomplished story-wise even though this has been the longest arc in Super. So I'm a bit disappointed in that.
Overall, I'm giving this series a 6/10 and I hope that the writing quality is much better in the movie and the inevitable sequel.
I don't know why people hope that this will lead up to GT? Outside of video games and collectables, GT is dead and I feel like Toei & Toriyama has push it aside. I feel like too many thing contradict with GT in Super at this rate. GT will always be its own thing at this point and I hope it stays at that.
goku the krump dancer wrote:
- If anything I'm most shocked about Freeza being alive.. for now anyway. Hopfully new dude in the Movie this year kills him so that there's still some wiggle room for GT to fit with this time line lol.
GT is lost.
Otherwise we would have seen kid goku blue and vegeta blue in the series.
I don't get why people still want GT to be link with the series still. GT is a thing of the past, people should move on already. Also having Freeza be killed off in the next movie would be a bad idea since they just brought him back.
I like GT thats all. It will always be part of the series as whole or the very least never be black balled. However on another note
Super so far (and I say so far because its technically not over yet). has been such a mixed bag and I think Freeza being alive right now kinda ruins everything that was built in the first half of Z.
It's not too late. One day, it will be.
Peace And Power MF DOOM!
Peace and Power Kevin Samuels
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I'll quickly give my thoughts on this, though only briefly so as to attempt to not derail things.
Around here where certain users are more prominently vocal in threads than in other corners of the world, there can be a bit of an echo effect where their minority criticisms can begin to be more greatly noticed than those of positively thrilled folks. In turn, this can give the illusion that there's a much larger negative stigma around the series than the actual numbers overall would suggest, which can seriously kill the enjoyment of folks who earnestly enjoy the series in all of its glory, flaws and all.
The few ruin things for the many, in a sense.
That's not to say their criticisms are unfounded, either. It's just that when their voices compound and bounce off each other, it can create a cascade effect that makes perception of the series seem worse than it really is, amplifying the negativity they may produce artificially.
I'll answer your post and leave it at that, I don't want to sway the discourse either.
I understand pretty much everything you said, it's the "ruin the enjoyment of folks who enjoy" that I don't get. Why would anyone let their enjoyment of something be affected by negative opinions of other groups of people? It just doesn't register with me, my favorite movie of all time is literally despised by basically everyone on the planet and that affects me not one bit. Same goes for plenty of things I enjoy which seem to be commonly disliked/hated on, I simply cannot comprehend this.
But I guess it makes slighty more sense than hand-waiving someone's criticisms as "whinning" and labeling those who do that as "sad people".
"I think it's only fair that I should warn you guys. You dont stand a chance against me.", Future Trunks
A bit late to the party but I have to say I'm pleasantly surprised how well ending of the tournament was handled. In fact, all three last episode were good - we got some nice climatic battles, good music, good animation and additional characters development/interactions. The fact that it took actual teamwork to take down Jiren is also noteworthy.
It's been one hell of a ride with Super but in the end I'd grade the series enjoyable especially Black and Universe Survival arcs. Both Beerus and #17 had some very nice character development and turned out to be cool characters that genuinely contribute to the show.
Goku and Vegeta having a rematch at the same place they fought year ago is a blatant fanservice but not unwelcome one...nostalgia hits hard
17 actually saved everyone, if he would have wished for his boat, or Goku wished for Freeza's resurrection, Zen O would have erased U-7 as well and perhaps even the other 4 universes. Pointless tournament my ass
Vegeta_Sama wrote:Have you guys seen how Caulifla immediately ran to Cabba to ask him to go and train? The dude's totally getting laid
I doubt it, if anything Caulifa and Kale are intended to be lesbian lovers. If you watch other anime, the shoujo-vibes between Kale having a crush on her tomboyish senior is blatant yuri pandering. It's a common stereotype in anime.
[/spoiler]
