Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

How you lot have managed to keep up with such contradiction for 131 episodes, I have no idea. I would have given up about the time 17 showed up at a hundred times above SSG level (if I hadn't already with all the base form back and forth).

Wanna know my secret?

I don't assume power levels are messed up based on a few inconsistencies.

It's far from "a few inconsistencies", it's basically on the level where you can't use someone's performance to actually gauge their strength and the entire plot is invalidated. Like 17 going from maybe two or three times as strong as Freeza to being dozens of times stronger than the guy explicitly stated to be able to destroy a universe.

Explain to me the difference in power, mathematically, betwen Android 17 in Dragonball Z and Android 17 in Dragonball Super.

And then extrapolate how fast those gains must have been to reach that level in several years with no mystical, divine or technological assistance of any kind.

You'll find that a single push-up would have put him above Perfect Cell.

[Black Hawk]

How you lot have managed to keep up with such contradiction for 131 episodes, I have no idea. I would have given up about the time 17 showed up at a hundred times above SSG level (if I hadn't already with all the base form back and forth).

Now that I think about it, your statement made me realize that, in trying to rationalize the power scale of the anime adaptation, each of us does a lot of picking and choosing. Maybe that's why there are even more disagreements on Super's power scaling than prior Dragon Ball's power scaling.

For example, I don't believe No. 17 is in the same league as a Super Saiyajin Blue, as Gokū stating that he'll try not to accidentally kill No. 17 (whereas, if I'm not mistaken, the subtitles state something to the effect of "I didn't know you were this strong.") From what I've seen, most of the power scaling community believes that No. 17 is in the same league as a Super Saiyajin Blue; I can't fault them for that, since there are definitely implications that he is indeed in that league, such as putting up at least something of a fight against Top.

I think we each pick and choose what we consider "consistent", so there may very well be no possible set-in-stone power scale for the series; it's up to each of our interpretations. I guess, in a way, that's what makes it fun to power scale the Super anime; any two people probably won't have the same power scale, and, when things are kept civil, it can be enjoyable to discuss the differences and understand why those differences arise.

Okay, that's my positive message for the day.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

How you lot have managed to keep up with such contradiction for 131 episodes, I have no idea. I would have given up about the time 17 showed up at a hundred times above SSG level (if I hadn't already with all the base form back and forth).

Wanna know my secret?

I don't assume power levels are messed up based on a few inconsistencies.

It's far from "a few inconsistencies", it's basically on the level where you can't use someone's performance to actually gauge their strength and the entire plot is invalidated. Like 17 going from maybe two or three times as strong as Freeza to being dozens of times stronger than the guy explicitly stated to be able to destroy a universe.

Explain to me the difference in power, mathematically, betwen Android 17 in Dragonball Z and Android 17 in Dragonball Super.

And then extrapolate how fast those gains must have been to reach that level in several years with no mystical, divine or technological assistance of any kind.

You'll find that a single push-up would have put him above Perfect Cell.

Now there's your primary problem. Trying to apply some mathematical formula to DB has never worked out well.

Not to mention that those poachers are pretty damn tough if they can give Trunks and Goten trouble, as seen in 131's ending credits

[Marlowe89]

I think we each pick and choose what we consider "consistent", so there may very well be no possible set-in-stone power scale for the series; it's up to each of our interpretations.

Pretty much this. I don't think anybody here can sincerely claim that they don't pick-and-choose at this point; it's a fact that Super doesn't have perfect internal consistency, there are absolutely outliers in the show and it's up to us to separate what I call the macro scaling based on Toriyama's script from the micro scaling based on how a particular writer interprets a character's strength. Post-mortem interviews with the writing staff and especially some of Toshio's tweets make this all too obvious.

It's probably more subjective in this series than it ever has been in the history of the entire franchise, to be quite honest.

[PFM18]

How you lot have managed to keep up with such contradiction for 131 episodes, I have no idea. I would have given up about the time 17 showed up at a hundred times above SSG level (if I hadn't already with all the base form back and forth).

Wanna know my secret?

I don't assume power levels are messed up based on a few inconsistencies.

It's far from "a few inconsistencies", it's basically on the level where you can't use someone's performance to actually gauge their strength and the entire plot is invalidated. Like 17 going from maybe two or three times as strong as Freeza to being dozens of times stronger than the guy explicitly stated to be able to destroy a universe.

Explain to me the difference in power, mathematically, betwen Android 17 in Dragonball Z and Android 17 in Dragonball Super.

And then extrapolate how fast those gains must have been to reach that level in several years with no mystical, divine or technological assistance of any kind.

You'll find that a single push-up would have put him above Perfect Cell.

It isn't neccessarily contradictory that 17 got this strong this fast. It doesn't directly contradcit anything previously established in the series even though it is an extremely extremely large increase.

Fun fact: based on the calculations that I put together he is about 155 million times stronger than what he used to be in the Cell arc.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

At the end of all days, there are two constants: existence will eventually wink out, and power-scaling debates will never truly be settled.

The heat from these debates is like that of the Ultra Instinct's, only WAY hotter.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Well, DBS is over so I'll make my ranking

1- Zen'oh / Future Zen'oh
2- Daishinkan
3- Angels
4- MUI Goku
5- Jiren
6- SSB Vegetto / Hakaishins / UI Omen Goku / Vegeta (after power up in EP 126) / Toppo
7- Merged Zamasu
8 - SSJ2 Kefla
9 - Goku SSB KK x20 / Vegeta SSB Evolution (initial)
10 - Aniraza
11 - SSJ Kefla
12 - Golden Freeza / SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta / Toppo (base) / Dyspo (Maximum light speed mode)
13- SSJ Rosé Black
14 - SSJ Rage Trunks
15 - Hitto
16 - SSG Goku
17 - Ultimate Gohan / Android 17 / SSJ Berserker Kale (dominated)
18 - Saonel / Pirina
19 - Koichiarator
20 - Piccolo / SSJ2 Caulifla / SSJ2 Kyabe / SSJ2 Future Trunks
21 - Zamasu
22 - Magetta
23 - Monna
24 - Final Form Freeza
25 - Frost

How Android 17 is the seventeenth tier on that list, if he was able resist both God Toppo and Jiren?

17 failed to do anything against Toppo base, not even scratch him or give a good fight, as SSB Goku did. So he is clearly below that level.
17 was just holding him

Against Jiren, the same.

[picc]

At the end of all days, there are two constants: existence will eventually wink out, and power-scaling debates will never truly be settled.

The heat from these debates is like that of the Ultra Instinct's, only WAY hotter.

Its reaching all the way over here.

And yes, every ranking list can be reasonably argued as a crock of shit in at least 3 places. This is just a fun exercise.

[RandomGuy96]

Wanna know my secret?

I don't assume power levels are messed up based on a few inconsistencies.

It's far from "a few inconsistencies", it's basically on the level where you can't use someone's performance to actually gauge their strength and the entire plot is invalidated. Like 17 going from maybe two or three times as strong as Freeza to being dozens of times stronger than the guy explicitly stated to be able to destroy a universe.

Explain to me the difference in power, mathematically, betwen Android 17 in Dragonball Z and Android 17 in Dragonball Super.

And then extrapolate how fast those gains must have been to reach that level in several years with no mystical, divine or technological assistance of any kind.

You'll find that a single push-up would have put him above Perfect Cell.

It isn't neccessarily contradictory that 17 got this strong this fast. It doesn't directly contradcit anything previously established in the series even though it is an extremely extremely large increase.

Fun fact: based on the calculations that I put together he is about 155 million times stronger than what he used to be in the Cell arc.

Yes it is. This is the shit I'm talking about.

Let's say he only got 155 million times stronger (the actual levels of energy output being implied would place the gap larger, but let's just roll with your assumption). It's been less than 15 years since the Cell arc, ~5,500 days at max. Say he trained non-stop at 8 hours a day while still having a full time job somehow; that's 44,000 hours of training in total. This would mean that, for every hour he was training, he was adding 155,000,000/44,000 = x3523 the equivalent of his original power. In other words he's adding the equivalent of his original power literally every single second he trains.

How long would it have taken for him to get to the level of being able to flick Cell's head off? Twenty, maybe thirty seconds?

[PFM18]

It's far from "a few inconsistencies", it's basically on the level where you can't use someone's performance to actually gauge their strength and the entire plot is invalidated. Like 17 going from maybe two or three times as strong as Freeza to being dozens of times stronger than the guy explicitly stated to be able to destroy a universe.

Explain to me the difference in power, mathematically, betwen Android 17 in Dragonball Z and Android 17 in Dragonball Super.

And then extrapolate how fast those gains must have been to reach that level in several years with no mystical, divine or technological assistance of any kind.

You'll find that a single push-up would have put him above Perfect Cell.

It isn't neccessarily contradictory that 17 got this strong this fast. It doesn't directly contradcit anything previously established in the series even though it is an extremely extremely large increase.

Fun fact: based on the calculations that I put together he is about 155 million times stronger than what he used to be in the Cell arc.

Yes it is. This is the shit I'm talking about.

Let's say he only got 155 million times stronger (the actual levels of energy output being implied would place the gap larger, but let's just roll with your assumption). It's been less than 15 years since the Cell arc, ~5,500 days at max. Say he trained non-stop at 8 hours a day while still having a full time job somehow; that's 44,000 hours of training in total. This would mean that, for every hour he was training, he was adding 155,000,000/44,000 = x3523 the equivalent of his original power. In other words he's adding the equivalent of his original power literally every single second he trains.

How long would it have taken for him to get to the level of being able to flick Cell's head off? Twenty, maybe thirty seconds?

I'm curious hoe you figure it would be more than 155 million??

[SayianBeyondGod]

Here's a few issues with people rankings I have:

- U6 sayians(excluding kale) are more comparable or rival to base U7 saiyans even if they're slightly stronger as ssj2, but they're still inferior with lesser forms such as ssj. For example Vegeta was able to casually one shot Mona where as ssj Cabba alone was being dominated until he went ssj2 in which he was able to gain the upper hand. Base Goku held his won against ssj2 Caulifa even if you argue skill was significantly emphasized on, Goku needed to be relevant in power as he was able to cause harm to her.

-Final form Frieza is not base tier or at least now as a recton of Saiyan Beyond god being SSG in the F saga. At this point he should be comparable to the likes of SSG tier fighters. A lot of evidence support this such as, Frieza being able to fodderized Jimeze, who was bullying Base Gohan (who is equal to Base Goku) and who Goku decided to go SSJ against. There's other example such Frieza beimg able to take on and fight Dyspo whom was having the slight edge against SSG Goku or the fact he was confident enough to take on both SSJ2 Caulifa and Berserk controlled Kale at the same time while preparing the fire a death beam at Final form.

- SSB Vegeta and Goku are being underrated with no one taking into account of the more recent Zenkai boost. Honestly they shouldn't be put that low in the lists or below SSJ Kefla whom was implied to have too much trouble if up against a full power SSB by Champa and Vados. In episode 122 SSB Vegeta for example was able to push Jiren whom was stated to have the strongest KI he felt as well as create a Final Flash which rivals if not surpass the U7 spirit bomb, which would show Vegeta being superior to the likes of ssj2 Kefla or merge Zamasu(prior to mutation) with the former said. SSB Goku on the other hand was able to fight on the same Jiren in Blue alone with in episode 123, he was able to create mines enough to shock Vegeta when Jiren tanked them which implies Goku power has increased, as well as taking more powered attacks from a stronger Jiren after pushing him to such heights.

- With tanking note of the prior point wouldn't Aniraza be more powerful than just SSBKK x5 from a earlier ToP Goku since Vegeta and Goku at this point being more powerful than early ToP Blue Goku. You got Vegeta whom is comparable to Kefla and Goku was has improved to the point he able to perform better against Jiren latter.

-Hit should be higher than people are giving him credit for. In episode 111 Hit implies that the strikes Jiren was throwing were comparable to what UI Goku took so he was facing Jiren at relative power. Further power he was able to harm Jiren at the time by punching a hole and had him struggling to move in a time cage until he starts showing more shocking power. This would show that Hit would be stronger than 110 UI Goku, whom by scaling would be able SSJ2 Kefla considering Vegeta in episode 122 seem to imply Jiren while having the strongest Ki he felt is weaker than when fight UI Goku from 110. Hit is not near SSG tier especially when he fought Blue Goku while having the power to cause significant damage.

- SSBE(or Beyond Blue) even initially is not necessarily on pair with SSB X20 Goku. The fact they fought side by side don't prove they're on pair if don't pay full detail attention to the fight in hand. I mean Caulifa fought side by side with Berserk Kale ro Zamasu fight side by side by Goku Black but neither are on pair or close in terms of power. In Vegeta and Goku case, we clearly see Vegeta being more heavily offensive such as firing more ki powered attacks which pushes the powered up Jiren more with even Goku replying on Vegeta's power than his own considering he's less offensive while trying to hold Jiren to give Vegeta more openings. I think it's better assume Vegeta even initial SSBE is above SSB x20 Goku, especially when statements at the time was Vegeta having boundless energy or breaking his shell by spectators which used to describe even UI from 110.

- SSR Trunks shouldn't be comparable to the likes SSG tier or below SSJ Kefla. Trunks already should be significantly above SSG tier considering he showed the power to initially incapacitate Goku black in rose and take him on while battling future Zamasu. When fused Zamasu was beating on both Vegeta and Goku at full power SSB after destroying his barrier, the moment Trunks jumped in Gowasu and Shin both were amazed as well as shocked of his power which can be interpreted as SSR being above both SSB Saiyans at the time. Nothing suggest that SSG tier is now SSB tier during the ToP or anywhere close. There's a vague evidence of how much strong was SSB Goku in early ToP would be compared to SSR Trunks which could close to 10x due to SSB Goku fighting Hit though skill was involved so it wasn't Goku being only improved in speed and power. Regardless SSJ Kefla isn't on pair with SSB Goku from early ToP if he was on full power which was implied by Vados implying SSB Goku at full power would be troublesome and Champa being so confident since Goku was still fatigue. So there's no objective evidence for SSJ Kefla being above SSR Trunks, at best they're comparable.

- Hakaishins may not be below UI(MUI named by fans), considering base off shoden jump magaiznes I had translate in the past in this thread non imply UI Goku surpassed them as a whole. It's more safe to assume he's in the Hakaishin specturm of power with Jiren while surpassing a few since Goku is slightly above Jiren whom surpass Belmod alone. People assume Goku mastering UI while other hakaishins haven't is a misconpetion considering A) We only know a few haven't mastered it, B) Power and some hax alone would overcome UI instintive technquies and C) Goku may not complelety master the tecnhquie as he can controll it by will and may be on the same proificentcy as Beerus.

[Liquir]

Lately I've only seen Rank lists about individuals. What about Universes from the TOP? What would you rank them based on overall power displayed by the fighters in the TOP, including fusions that appeared? ( Anime )
Universe 7
Universe 11
Universe 6
Universe 3
Universe 2 / Universe 9
Universe 10 ( because Obuni )
Universe 4

[Bullza]

1. Universe 7
2. Universe 11
3. Universe 6
4. Universe 3

That's all pretty straight forward and obvious.

5. Universe 2
6. Universe 10
7. Universe 4
8. Universe 9

Ribrianne and Jimeze were fairly impressive. Universe 10 had Obuni and that's about it. Universe 4 had Monna and her stomping a Super Saiyan.

Universe 2 didn't even have anybody that was Super Saiyan level. There strongest was Bergamo who is about on par with Base Goku.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I've also been using a concept that I haven't really seen anyone else try.

Basically, I've been separating things into "[X] power" and "[Y] state". The "power" is self-explanatory; how strong someone's power is in a given form. The latter is a bit more nuanced, as it's meant to show what form someone's fighting with irrespective of power.

For example, base Goku has "Majin Buu base power", but he's in the "base Saiyan state". So, whilst he has the power to go toe-to-toe with opponents as strong as Majin Buu, his base form can still be susceptible to those of a lower power but equivalent state. Fighters like Krillin, Piccolo, etc., they can all fight with the "base state" of Goku even if they don't have the "Majin Buu base power".

Same thing with higher forms, with the levels going up as characters either get stronger or get better powers.

Another example is Dyspo. He has undefined "[X] power", but this factor doesn't need to be greatly defined as his "Super Speed state" makes up for it, allowing him to even take on "god-level state" characters like SSG Goku and Golden Freeza.

[PFM18]

1. Universe 7
2. Universe 11
3. Universe 6
4. Universe 3

That's all pretty straight forward and obvious.

5. Universe 2
6. Universe 10
7. Universe 4
8. Universe 9

Ribrianne and Jimeze were fairly impressive. Universe 10 had Obuni and that's about it. Universe 4 had Monna and her stomping a Super Saiyan.

Universe 2 didn't even have anybody that was Super Saiyan level. There strongest was Bergamo who is about on par with Base Goku.

Dont you mean Universe 9? Bergamo was part of universe 9 and they were the weakwst universe

[Freezerbaby]

Full power golden freeza= blue level.
The fact that is a weakened golden freeza and not limitless-energy 17 who trades blows with weakened-jiren makes pretty clear that 17 is way far from blue level, but his endless ki allows him to hold off any fighter such as the likes of jiren and toppo, and even doing significant damage to these fighters just by catching them off guard.

[Green]

For me it goes

Universe 7
Universe 11
Universe 6
Universe 3
Universe 10
Universe 2
Universe 4
Universe 9

U10 over the others since Obuni and Napapa, mainly the former.
U2 has piss poor fighters but Pretty Black Hole is ridiculously strong, though if left out they'd be at the bottom.
U4 because Monna is there, otherwise they are even worse than U2.
U9 because Bergamo, their ace, is Base Saiyan level at best (Exhibition Match seems to be retconned or he would have used his ability... I think?). Good teamwork, but other than that eeeew.

[Hugo Boss]

For example, base Goku has "Majin Buu base power", but he's in the "base Saiyan state". So, whilst he has the power to go toe-to-toe with opponents as strong as Majin Buu, his base form can still be susceptible to those of a lower power but equivalent state. Fighters like Krillin, Piccolo, etc., they can all fight with the "base state" of Goku even if they don't have the "Majin Buu base power".

It seems Saiyan forms are a lightning rod to craft those things haha. That’s practically how “tiers” work.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I would still put universe 11 above 7, only because of jiren. While MUI goku is slightly above LB Jiren, jirens non-limit breaking power is still beyond a god of destruction, and is available to him 24-7. Until goku has access to MUI by himself, jiren will solo all of universe 7 with ease.

[ZombieVito]

Full power golden freeza= blue level.
The fact that is a weakened golden freeza and not limitless-energy 17 who trades blows with weakened-jiren makes pretty clear that 17 is way far from blue level, but his endless ki allows him to hold off any fighter such as the likes of jiren and toppo, and even doing significant damage to these fighters just by catching them off guard.

17 has limitless stamina not power.

If he takes damage (And he did) he will get weaker.

Also, trying to put any logic to training gains went bye bye when Freeza surpassed SSB in 4 months. 17 should have more potential than Freeza so he can definitely reach those levels in 10 years.

Lately I've only seen Rank lists about individuals. What about Universes from the TOP? What would you rank them based on overall power displayed by the fighters in the TOP, including fusions that appeared? ( Anime )

Universe 7
Self explanatory.

Universe 11
All 3 main troopers put them here. All the others aren't that bad either. They should be around or higher than Pure Boo.

Universe 6
This universe has very good variety. 3 Blue tier, 1 SSG tier, 2 SS2 tier, 2 SS tier and 2 base or below tier fighters.

Universe 3
Only reason to put them up here is Anilaza and Majikayo.

Universe 10
Obuni and Rubalt puts them here. They are surprisingly strong.

Universe 4
Monna, Katopesla, Damon and Gamisaras were great and stronger than most fighters in the ToP.

Universe 2
The only reason I put them here is because of Ribrianne being stronger than Bergamo. This universe was really disappointing.

Universe 9
Almost all the fighters were on the same tier but no one really stood out.