Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ToshioWrites]

Beerus didn’t use his full power to one shot Vegeta. A completely non serious Beerus ATE a punch to the face , got pissed, used a little more power and beat Vegeta

In the manga ,Beerus and SSB Vegito are possibly more or less equal so if Beerus has to use 100% on Vegeta, that would mean Vegeta is closing in on vegito power which just isn’t the case as Vegeta = Goku more or less

[Kenneth La Torre]

Beerus didn’t use his full power to one shot Vegeta. A completely non serious Beerus ATE a punch to the face , got pissed, used a little more power and beat Vegeta

In the manga ,Beerus and SSB Vegito are possibly more or less equal so if Beerus has to use 100% on Vegeta, that would mean Vegeta is closing in on vegito power which just isn’t the case as Vegeta = Goku more or less

I think we all know that if beerus used 100% against CSSB Vegeta, he would have been turned to dust soon as he got punched

[Analytical Delusion]

Couple questions:

1. How strong are base Goku/Vegeta in the manga?

Beerus didn't fight Goku in his base, and Toyo skipped the RoF arc. I'm pretty sure we can't take the preview manga for the movie as part of his continuity, so all we have are narrator's notes and flashbacks, so their base forms don't really have any feats.

If Toyo actually went through RoF in his Super manga, I think it's unlikely Goku in his base gets the better of Final Form Freeza (he wouldn't use SSG since people are surprised when he pulls it out against Hit, but maybe he uses normal Super Saiyan against Freeza, or if he does fight him in his base, it's just casual sparring and Freeza is unscathed?).

2. Also, should we revisit (manga) Hit? I think people were low on him for a couple reasons:

(i) Because he didn't specifically mention that he was going to extend his time skip to .2 or .5 seconds.

Response: He did say "But if you can predict where I'm going to end up, all I have to do is stay one step ahead of you", so it seems the idea was the same as the anime, without the specifics.

Counter-point: Hit later says, after being punched in the face by SSG Goku "Could it be...I was only able to stop him for less than 0.1 seconds...?!", which implies that the technique has not improved.

(ii) Manga Hit doesn't have the 'pure progress' ability he does in the anime.

Response: True, but consider that in the anime, he just goes to a power up stance because he thinks he would improve. In the manga, he actually powers up "This...this is my full power. It's been so long since I was forced to use...that my body probably won't even hold out a single minute."

Counter-point: He can only use time-skip once in this form.

I guess he's probably slightly weaker than Goku in SSB? Though he did dodge the kamehameha. It seems that the manga places a lot more emphasis on his killing techniques than does the anime. The anime does mention them, yes (and there is a two episode mini-arc later), but Hit's 'pure progress' seems to be the much more prominent ability.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Hitto said he trained not to rely solely on his special abilities, so we have to assume that he actually increased his powers.

The question is, does he have the same strength as Goku in MSSB? Both of them could not do anything against Jiren, but of course if Hitto were only SSG level, he could not even get Jiren to move.

The manga focused on the Tokizurashi / Time Shift, which makes it a little tricky to define exactly what Hitto's power level is.

What about Golden Freeza in the manga? In chapter 32, Goku goes to hell to find Freeza and when he returns, both are very hurt. Does that mean that Freeza is at the MSSB level, or could Goku have just used the regular SSB against him?

[ChiefWamsutta]

How do these multipliers sound?

Saiyan = Base x 1
Great Ape = Base x 10
Saiyan Kaioken Max = Base x 20
Super Saiyan = Base x 50
Super Saiyan Grade 2 = Base x 60
Super Saiyan Grade 3 = Base x 75
Super Saiyan Full Power = Base x 90
Super Saiyan 2 = Base x 100
Super Saiyan Berserker Suppressed = Base x 200
Super Saiyan Berserker = Base x 350
Super Saiyan 3 = Base x 400
Mystic = Base x 500
Super Saiyan Berserker Full Power = Base x 2500
Super Saiyan Berserker 2 = Base x 5000
Super Saiyan God = Base x 25,000
Super Saiyan Rage = Base x 40,000
Super Saiyan Blue = Base x 50,000
Super Saiyan Rosé = Base x 50,000
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Max = Base x 1,000,000
Super Saiyan Blue Evolution = Base x 1,000,000
Ultra Instinct = Base x 5,000,000
Perfect Instinct = Base x 10,000,000

Not really feeling them TBH.
- Ultimate shouldn't have multiplier, it's just the full-power base. If it would have any multiplier at all, Boo Arc Ultimate should be at least a dozen of times stronger than SSJ3. While US Arc Ultimate should be comparable to SSJB.
- SSJG multiplier should at least be in the 100s of thousands.
- The gap between SSJB and God should be a lot bigger.
- The gap between Omen and SSJBE/SSJBKKx20 should as well, be a lot bigger.

Small nitpick: If you're going to use official names, then it would be better to use Ultra Instinct "Omen" (instead of Ultra Instinct), and Ultra Instinct (instead of Perfect Instinct).

Ultimate has been treated as a transformation in DBS. Gohan didn't unlock "the full power of his base," rather, it is a huge jump in power. He goes from having no bangs to having a bang in "Ultimate." This is entirely 100% consistent throughout DBS, meaning the hairstyle changes i.e. a transformation. The multiplier I kept constant because Gohan's base power level increases while training with Piccolo in preparation for Tournament Of Power.

Maybe I should go with a multiplier of Base x 1000 for Ultimate/Mystic.

100s of thousands is really high for SSGod. If we take what I have proposed, SSGod is 62.5 x stronger than SS3 and 10 x stronger than Kale's most powerful form.

Considering that the manga has 10% SSBlue is weaker than SSGod, I gave an estimate that 50% SSBlue equals SSGod. I kept that consistent to the anime, since we have nothing better.

Yeah, I might be wrong with UI and PI's multipliers (I call them that -- I love having Goku's final form feature the word 'perfect'. His instincts go from being ultra to perfection.). What do you think? Maybe 10 x stronger than SSBE/SSBKKx20?

Looks O.K i guess.

At least no one can tell you that they are wrong, on the god forms that is, since no miltupliers are stated for them. Tho mystic shouldnt have a multiplier. gohan was many time sttonger than a ssj3 goku in the buu saga, while he is god/ low blue tier in super. Thats pretty much an indication that there is no miltiplier for mystic.

I was under the impression that Gohan's base power level increased a lot during the training for the Tournament Of Power. The Ultimate multiplier would be the same as the Buu Saga, but Gohan's base power increased drastically from that.

[JazzMazz]

Hitto said he trained not to rely solely on his special abilities, so we have to assume that he actually increased his powers.

The question is, does he have the same strength as Goku in MSSB? Both of them could not do anything against Jiren, but of course if Hitto were only SSG level, he could not even get Jiren to move.

The manga focused on the Tokizurashi / Time Shift, which makes it a little tricky to define exactly what Hitto's power level is.

What about Golden Freeza in the manga? In chapter 32, Goku goes to hell to find Freeza and when he returns, both are very hurt. Does that mean that Freeza is at the MSSB level, or could Goku have just used the regular SSB against him?

No, I think it is pretty clearly defined how strong both Hit and Golden Freeza are.

Hit is roughly the same level as CSSB, or at the very least comparable to Goku at that level. Otherwise he wouldn't be able to do anything at all against Jiren, much less send him flying back with a regular kick.

Golden Freeza is exactly on Goku's CSSB level, with Goku saying in the manga that he wouldn't be to sure if Vegeta could beat Freeza because he'd been training in hell, or something along those lines.

So yeah, they're both roughly CSSB level fighters.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I'm only surprised about two thinks this chapter

1. hit actually being comparable to a CSSB, and having a technique that puts him above it.

2. When i saw beerus vs CSSB vegeta, i though jiren vs CSSB would be even, as in a non-serious jiren fighting on par with CSSB... but nope, jiren effortlessly tanks a kamehameha, and can effortlessly fight off TWO beings on merged zamasus level. And whose to say goku now isnt stronger than merged zamasu as a CSSB.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Interesting... remeber the fight against vegeta and beerus? Beerus told vegeta that he would take a million years to reach his level... guess what, dyspo tells goku the exact same thing when comparing him to jiren.

[Bullza]

Having read the newest chapter, would we put Hit, Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Merged Zamasu? All on the same level power level wise?

Overall it seems like it would be a bit of a rock, paper, scissors scenario between the three. Goku could beat Zamasu due to the Hakai, Zamasu could beat Hit due to being invincible and Hit having no way to finish him off and Hit could beat Goku due to the Time Lag.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku could beat Zamasu due to the Hakai

He can't. Beerus clearly stated that the Hakai doesn't work on immortal beings like Fused Zamasu.

[Zamasu55]

Goku could beat Zamasu due to the Hakai

He can't. Beerus clearly stated that the Hakai doesn't work on immortal beings like Fused Zamasu.

But in the manga Zamasu was about to be destroyed and had to use Mai as a meat-shield...

[SupremeKai25]

Goku could beat Zamasu due to the Hakai

He can't. Beerus clearly stated that the Hakai doesn't work on immortal beings like Fused Zamasu.

But in the manga Zamasu was about to be destroyed and had to use Mai as a meat-shield...

Fused Zamasu had enough time to not only realize the gravity of the situation, but also open a portal, identify Mai, grab her and put her in front of himself to serve as meatshield. Clearly, Goku's Hakai was not only very slow and inefficient, but also weak. Compare it to Beerus' Hakai. Present Zamasu could do nothing but scream in pain and he was disintegrated in a few seconds, as opposed to Goku's Hakai that was taking ages to finish.

Besides, Beerus said the Hakai doesn't work on immortal beings. We are not talking about a random drunkard, we are talking about a being who has been God of Destruction for millions of years, so he probably knows what he's talking about. In light of this, we know for a fact that Fused Zamasu would have survived Goku's Hakai anyway, even if he hadn't used Mai as a meatshield.

I'm not sure if it's the same in the anime, but I remember that Whis implied that the Hakai wouldn't work on the immortal Future Zamasu and that they would have to imprison him with a technique similiar to the Mafuba to defeat him.

[JazzMazz]

He can't. Beerus clearly stated that the Hakai doesn't work on immortal beings like Fused Zamasu.

But in the manga Zamasu was about to be destroyed and had to use Mai as a meat-shield...

Fused Zamasu had enough time to not only realize the gravity of the situation, but also open a portal, identify Mai, grab her and put her in front of himself to serve as meatshield. Clearly, Goku's Hakai was not only very slow and inefficient, but also weak. Compare it to Beerus' Hakai. Present Zamasu could do nothing but scream in pain and he was disintegrated in a few seconds, as opposed to Goku's Hakai that was taking ages to finish.

Besides, Beerus said the Hakai doesn't work on immortal beings. We are not talking about a random drunkard, we are talking about a being who has been God of Destruction for millions of years, so he probably knows what he's talking about. In light of this, we know for a fact that Fused Zamasu would have survived Goku's Hakai anyway, even if he hadn't used Mai as a meatshield.

TBH, I think Zamasu would have probably more likely been efficiently annihilated if he actually managed to land that blow on Goku before he could use the hakai. They made it pretty clear, that Zamasu was over-exerting himself beyond even his own immortality. I think it was fortunate more so for him, that Goku nearly completely annihilated him with the hakai, in contrast to him landing that fatal blow. Otherwise, his plans may very much would have ended then and there due to his own hubris.

[Helios518]

Ultimate has been treated as a transformation in DBS. Gohan didn't unlock "the full power of his base," rather, it is a huge jump in power. He goes from having no bangs to having a bang in "Ultimate." This is entirely 100% consistent throughout DBS, meaning the hairstyle changes i.e. a transformation. The multiplier I kept constant because Gohan's base power level increases while training with Piccolo in preparation for Tournament Of Power.

Maybe I should go with a multiplier of Base x 1000 for Ultimate/Mystic.

100s of thousands is really high for SSGod. If we take what I have proposed, SSGod is 62.5 x stronger than SS3 and 10 x stronger than Kale's most powerful form.

Considering that the manga has 10% SSBlue is weaker than SSGod, I gave an estimate that 50% SSBlue equals SSGod. I kept that consistent to the anime, since we have nothing better.

Yeah, I might be wrong with UI and PI's multipliers (I call them that -- I love having Goku's final form feature the word 'perfect'. His instincts go from being ultra to perfection.). What do you think? Maybe 10 x stronger than SSBE/SSBKKx20?

For Ultimate: I guess you could see it like that, if you want even though it contradicts the what the original manga. We'll see in the DBS manga if Toyotaro treats it as a transformation or a powered up base.

Regarding its multiplier, it still should be closer to Blue or Rage than anything else. As seen with Goku quickly making a charged beam that overpowered Kociarator (who blocked a combined SSJB attack), him being confident that he could defeat Golden Freeza if he were to go out of line, and defeating Hyper Speed Dyspo (could punch around Hit). His base form doesn't seem to be that much stronger than Goku/Vegeta's either, hell Goku even took one of Piccolo's charged attacks in base form.

For SSJG: I only give SSJG that high of a multiplier because it's should be greater than a SSJ3 Vegetto from the same arc.

For SSJB: Reason why I said it should be much higher (and therefore the forms above it), is because if we use Kafla vs Goku then difference should be great. Here's how the list would look with your multipliers

[spoiler]SSJG Goku: 1
SSJB Goku: 10
SSJBKKx20: 200
Omen: 1,000

Base Kafla (Lowballed): 1.1
SSJBFP: 2,750
SSJB2: 5,500[/spoiler]

SSJB was seen as worthy foe by SSJ Kafla, until she kept getting more power ups but that can't be the case if she's greater than it by over 100x. Similar case with Omen here, Omen was dominating the fight, that numbers don't show it, hell even UI wouldn't defeat her using these multipliers.

[Bullza]

I completely forgot now but was Golden Frieza supposed to be as strong as the current Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the manga as well?

[JazzMazz]

I completely forgot now but was Golden Frieza supposed to be as strong as the current Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the manga as well?

Well, its sort of implied.

That's around about it really.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I completely forgot now but was Golden Frieza supposed to be as strong as the current Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the manga as well?

Well, its sort of implied.

That's around about it really.

Ironically, the anime was absolutely clear on this matter, since it only needs to contend with SSB and Goku's Kaioken stacking; making Golden Freeza and the SSBs equal is simple and effective.

[shadd21]

Is there anything that implies that Jiren is weaker than Beerus?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Is there anything that implies that Jiren is weaker than Beerus?

Nope.

If anything, most of the information so far on Jiren implies he'd be above Beerus.

[shadd21]

Is there anything that implies that Jiren is weaker than Beerus?

Nope.

If anything, most of the information so far on Jiren implies he'd be above Beerus.

What information?