Let's talk about Piccolo

[Whatever]

]

I disagree, because I don't think Toriyama particularly cares that much about any character, despite claiming he has favorites. If he comes up with a compelling story for Piccolo, I think he'll use it, but if not, he won't rack his brain to develop one.

17 being written out makes little difference since we also have Roshi as a similar example. He's been put on the bench since the Piccolo arc but he hasn't disappeared. Yet there he was, in a tournament with the universes strongest fighters and outlasting Krillin and Tenshinhan.

He clearly cares about some characters way more than others.
I doubt Toriyama thinks a story and Goku and Vegeta just happen to fit in it for example,they are by defaut involved because Toriyama wants them to be involved,not because they fit in the story or anything like that.
17 was Piccolo's last relevant fight so that clearly shows how little he cares about Piccolo when his last relevant opponent gets plenty of spotlight while he goes out of his way to hummiliate Piccolo.

I'm not sure what's typically requested from the character in these discussions myself. I personally love Piccolo, and if people are asking for flashy spotlight moments, they got plenty of that in the Universe Survival arc. His treatment in general was much better compared to the Buu arc.

Strength-wise, I don't think the guy needs to be rivaling the show's top dogs to have prominence. That could certainly be interesting if done well, but it's another one of those things that isn't exactly necessary by itself.

Eh thats an exaggeration he got one moment with the SBC and that was it,he was even sidelined in the majority of the fight,i am sure people are asking to return to the status he had during the Freeza and Cell arcs.Granted considering that he was pretty much a joke character in the Buu arc,i guess thats an upgrade in this case.

Of course this topic has been made and being talked about a lot of times already and its already been said what can be said about the matter but i don't see why they something that will most likely never happen is being talked about outside of the sake of discussion.

[namekiansaiyan]

In what way ? Surely you want more than what he got in the TOP or the small fight he got in Champa's tournament. I want Namek/Cell arc Piccolo where he's going head to head with the arc's main villains.

I won't be satisfied until I get Frieza and Cell arc Piccolo back.

Everything he done in Super was just bad and not memorable and I can't believe some people are actually happy with it.
.

Maybe it's because people compare it with what happened with him in GT?

For what it's worth, and granted, it's not much, both in the U6 arc and TOP he didn't lose because of lack of power. It was either through cheating or a trick he failed to figure out, but he didn't get overpowered.

I don't really think about GT at all..

GT and Super are both crap for Piccolo but because Super is slightly better I should be happy? Ridiculous logic.

He should have took the win and continued in the Universe 6 tournament and that is the problem.

I would rather have had him be overpowered than looking like an idiot in the Tournament of Power.

Toiryama treats him as filler non stop and I just hope the movie at least somehow makes some progress with him.

[Michsi]

]

I disagree, because I don't think Toriyama particularly cares that much about any character, despite claiming he has favorites. If he comes up with a compelling story for Piccolo, I think he'll use it, but if not, he won't rack his brain to develop one.

17 being written out makes little difference since we also have Roshi as a similar example. He's been put on the bench since the Piccolo arc but he hasn't disappeared. Yet there he was, in a tournament with the universes strongest fighters and outlasting Krillin and Tenshinhan.

He clearly cares about some characters way more than others.
I doubt Toriyama thinks a story and Goku and Vegeta just happen to fit in it for example,they are by defaut involved because Toriyama wants them to be involved,not because they fit in the story or anything like that.
17 was Piccolo's last relevant fight so that clearly shows how little he cares about Piccolo when his last relevant opponent gets plenty of spotlight while he goes out of his way to hummiliate Piccolo.

I seriously don't see that. As I said, despite being having suffered two losses in DBS, none of them were from getting overpowered or getting a beat down - it was through cheating and tricks even others had fallen for.

I still believe he isn't attached to other characters, or at least doesn't care about power related aspects in order for him to believe he is doing character A, B or C a disservice. Even the Buu Saga you could claim that he was humiliating Piccolo even though he repeatedly said that he was his favorite - to him gags/humor where the most fun thing to do which is why Piccolo suddenly is put in more comedic situations. How we perceive it is one thing, but I doubt there was genuine intent to make someone look bad. I get why it would seem like that, but based on his interviews it really doesn't seem to be the case.

Also, we know that accepts ideas from others so in the end we don't know how much these character related choices were his.

I won't be satisfied until I get Frieza and Cell arc Piccolo back.

Everything he done in Super was just bad and not memorable and I can't believe some people are actually happy with it.
.

Maybe it's because people compare it with what happened with him in GT?

For what it's worth, and granted, it's not much, both in the U6 arc and TOP he didn't lose because of lack of power. It was either through cheating or a trick he failed to figure out, but he didn't get overpowered.

I don't really think about GT at all..

GT and Super are both crap for Piccolo but because Super is slightly better I should be happy? Ridiculous logic.

He should have took the win and continued in the Universe 6 tournament and that is the problem.

I would rather have had him be overpowered than looking like an idiot in the Tournament of Power.

Toiryama treats him as filler non stop and I just hope the movie at least somehow makes some progress with him.

Not you. Why some people, as you mentioned, might see it like this. Some people look for positives.

[Gokitalo]

I think it'd be awesome if Piccolo gets a power-up in this film. He's always been my favorite character and I like the idea of him still being able to keep up with the Saiyans. I'm not sure it'll happen-- he might serve in a more advisory role regarding the Book of Namekians-- but hey, we can hope!

I just wonder what sort of form such a power-up would take. Secret technique(s)? An ancient mystical ritual? A transformation, even? So many possibilities...

[Whatever]

I seriously don't see that. As I said, despite being having suffered two losses in DBS, none of them were from getting overpowered or getting a beat down - it was through cheating and tricks even others had fallen for.

Against Frost he got his victory taken from him by his own teamate and Vegeta,Frost and Goku pretty much told him he sucks.
Also looking like an idiot is much worse than being overpowered,especially when losing to an opponent you can beat easy on paper and somehow forgetting he can hear really well.

I still believe he isn't attached to other characters, or at least doesn't care about power related aspects in order for him to believe he is doing character A, B or C a disservice. Even the Buu Saga you could claim that he was humiliating Piccolo even though he repeatedly said that he was his favorite - to him gags/humor where the most fun thing to do which is why Piccolo suddenly is put in more comedic situations. How we perceive it is one thing, but I doubt there was genuine intent to make someone look bad. I get why it would seem like that, but based on his interviews it really doesn't seem to be the case.

By that logic he cares about every character in db since most of them were involved in a joke or a gag at the least once.
He cared about gags more than keeping Piccolo's character consistent thats why,when a character that is suposed to be stoic does exaggerated funny faces half of the time he is on panel then you know characterization went down the drain for the sake of jokes.
Everyone get humiliating moments but characters that Toriyama cares about get high moments as well and he wrote none for Piccolo.

When Toriyama wrote Goku,Vegeta and Frost degrading Piccolo i am sure he knew what he was doing to the character,Toriyama has a brain after all,its not like he pretends he is treating Yamcha well.

Also, we know that accepts ideas from others so in the end we don't know how much these character related choices were his.

We know for certain it was his own idea for Piccolo to lose to Damon and have his victory taken away from him from his teamate.
I don't know why you are so adamant against the idea Toriyama simply does not care about the character anymore outside of gags.

[Michsi]

I seriously don't see that. As I said, despite being having suffered two losses in DBS, none of them were from getting overpowered or getting a beat down - it was through cheating and tricks even others had fallen for.

Against Frost he got his victory taken from him by his own teamate and Vegeta,Frost and Goku pretty much told him he sucks.
Also looking like an idiot is much worse than being overpowered,especially when losing to an opponent you can beat easy on paper and somehow forgetting he can hear really well.

As others have mentioned, the point was to showcase their over-reliance one ki sensing. Yes, it was poorly handled but my assumption has always been that there was no other sense they could have used to give 17 the advantage in.

In Buu he had been taken out of the fighting role almost completely. In Super he was not.

I don't know why you are so adamant against the idea Toriyama simply does not care about the character anymore outside of gags.

Cuz it just doesn't seem to hold water. No one went through a greater drop in "coolness" than Vegeta in BOG, with the way he groveled in front of Beerus. According to his fans that was the greatest affront to any DB character ever and the absolute proof that Toriyama hated Vegeta. Then in ROF he gets robbed of his win against Freeza. Absolute proof he hates Vegeta. In the TOP his power-up looks like a magical girl transformation. Absolute proof he hates Vegeta. The only reason he gets any power is so that Goku can look cooler when he surpasses it. Absolute proof he hates Vegeta. See where I'm going with this?

[namekiansaiyan]

Toriyama caring about gags and things like that more than anything is the problem here for some fans as those fans obviously enjoy Dragon Ball for the fighting.

It is clear that Toriyama current favours certain characters and there is no denying that. Piccolo fans just have to hope something triggers something in Toriyama regarding Piccolo

[emperior]

The Makankosappo moment during the Tournament of Power was very good, but that was mainly due to the episode's stellar direction and storyboarding. It doesn't change the fact that Piccolo has been pretty much sidelined, which doesn't make much sense considering what we know of Piccolo and how, theoretically, he should have the potential to keep up with the Saiyans.

Dragon Ball Z basically established that the Earthlings such as Tenshinan, Krillin, Yamcha and Muten-Roshi couldn't keep up with the aliens power-wise, although they have also been used sometimes and Roshi has also found the spotlight yet again during the Tournament of Power, proving how Earthlings can still be useful due to their techniques and experience.
We also know Uub, a Earthling, has immense potential due to being the reincarnation of Buu, which means Earthling too can potentially be super strong but the ones we know just didn't win the genetic lottery, and unlike Saiyans they don't have limitless potential. Basically Dragon World Earthlings are very much based on real life ones, which is why they have natural limits dictated by their aging bodies and will never be able to transform.
17 changed things up quite a bit though, because he was able to reach levels of power close to Super Saiyan Blue, but being a cyborg we have no idea how much is modifications influenced his potential.

For Namekians though it's a different thing. The lore we have never gives any limit to Namekians' power, and Toriyama can always come up with a new transformation/whatever to power-up Piccolo. Even if he doesn't want to come up with anything new, he could always let Piccolo fuse with other Namekians to get stronger, and apparently Namekian fusion has no limits/drawbacks.
Considering that Piccolo is also very young (just a few years older than Gohan) especially compared to other members of his race, and considering how he is a rare prodigy among a race of mystical green guys, we have good reasons to expect him to get back on track with Goku power-wise. I won't have my hopes up for Piccolo regarding the movie, but the general sentiment is still there and will still be there even if Piccolo doesn't get stronger in the movie.

[Marlowe89]

Eh thats an exaggeration he got one moment with the SBC and that was it

I disagree. In addition to his (and Gohan's) fight against Saonel and Pirina, he also had his share of eliminations in the tournament such as Gamisaras and Shantza. He made significant contributions to the battle against Hermila and Prum. The Universe Survival arc doesn't just cover the tournament, either -- his training with Gohan demonstrated how strong he became overall from his own self-training.

I wouldn't say it's that much of a downgrade from the Freeza and Cell arcs, actually. Are people asking for him to get a sudden power-up? He doesn't need to be a god level fighter to have "moments" per se.

[Whatever]

As others have mentioned, the point was to showcase their over-reliance one ki sensing. Yes, it was poorly handled but my assumption has always been that there was no other sense they could have used to give 17 the advantage in.

In Buu he had been taken out of the fighting role almost completely. In Super he was not.

Even distracted he has better hearing than 17,so yeah he was presented as an idiot.
Also yay now he is fighting again only for his own teamates to tell him he sucks,thats like someone who lost 1 leg bragging to someone who had lost 2 legs.

Cuz it just doesn't seem to hold water. No one went through a greater drop in "coolness" than Vegeta in BOG, with the way he groveled in front of Beerus. According to his fans that was the greatest affront to any DB character ever and the absolute proof that Toriyama hated Vegeta. Then in ROF he gets robbed of his win against Freeza. Absolute proof he hates Vegeta. In the TOP his power-up looks like a magical girl transformation. Absolute proof he hates Vegeta. The only reason he gets any power is so that Goku can look cooler when he surpasses it. Absolute proof he hates Vegeta. See where I'm going with this?

His magical girl transformation seems to be Toei exclusive so far.
In ROF he still beat up Freeza,in BOG he still did better than ssj3 Goku,he acted like a buffon but he also got a cool moment and he acted like that for a reason unlike Piccolo in the Buu arc say.

The comparrison is not valid at all because Toriyama wrote Vegeta having plenty of good moments to make up for his low moments,Piccolo does not.
Even the like 2 at best good moments he has seem to be from Toei.

Like how much more obvious does Toriyama needs to make it?
Would you not be convinced till Furikawa asks Toriyama why his character keeps getting shafted like Furuya did?
His VA even said he spent more of his time being Gohan's housemaid than anything.

I disagree. In addition to his (and Gohan's) fight against Saonel and Pirina, he also had his share of eliminations in the tournament such as Gamisaras and Shantza. He made significant contributions to the battle against Hermila and Prum. The Universe Survival arc doesn't just cover the tournament, either -- his fight with Gohan demonstrated how strong he became overall from his training.

I wouldn't say it's that much of a downgrade from the Freeza and Cell arcs, actually. Are people asking for him to get a sudden power-up? He doesn't need to be a god level fighter to have "moments" per se.

Those 2 eliminations were not much of relevance through.He also made 0 contributions to the battle against Hermila and Prum despite figuring out their plan since Vegeta and Goku were the ones who saved them from those 2.

So its like 2 small moments,the one from episode 88 and that SBC from the fight he was almost completely sidelined from despite being his suposed 'big fight' in the tournament.
And even those 2 small moments are overshadowed by the rest of his bad treatment in the arc,let alone the much worse treatement he got in the other arcs.

In the Freeza and Cell arc,he was both plot relevant and power relevant(both things he is not from Buu arc and forward) so yeah its quite a downgrade,in the latter during the period he was important he was even the only one doing anything of relevance while Goku was busy having a heart attack and sleeping and Vegeta was staring in the sky.

[Marlowe89]

Those 2 eliminations were not much of relevance through.

Gamisaras was clearly established as a fairly dangerous threat. Shantza's illusion technique was implied to cause some trouble before it was quickly thwarted by Piccolo's intervention. These eliminations weren't super major or anything, but it's not like they were more irrelevant than appropriate for Piccolo's role either.

He also made 0 contributions to the battle against Hermila and Prum despite figuring out their plan

You're contradicting yourself here. If he gets the credit for figuring out their plan, he couldn't have made "zero" contributions.

I'm just struggling to understand what people want, exactly. Can you provide some specific examples to illustrate your point? The only significant thing I can think of is that a lot of his fans seem to want him to get an arbitrary power-up for some reason.

[Michsi]

As others have mentioned, the point was to showcase their over-reliance one ki sensing. Yes, it was poorly handled but my assumption has always been that there was no other sense they could have used to give 17 the advantage in.

In Buu he had been taken out of the fighting role almost completely. In Super he was not.

Even distracted he has better hearing than 17,so yeah he was presented as an idiot.
Also yay now he is fighting again only for his own teamates to tell him he sucks,thats like someone who lost 1 leg bragging to someone who had lost 2 legs.
.

No, what Goku did was be honest with him with something that both of them already knew- that he was way weaker than them and Frost. He performed better than expected against an opponent that was supposedly stronger than him and that was forced to cheat to win. Vegeta then was just being Vegeta. This hyperbolic interpretation is exactly the sort of thing I have an issue with when it comes to fandom.
Goku once told Vegeta to his face that he was way stronger than him - Goku's bluntness shouldn't surprise anyone. Later, he compliments him,so there.

As others have mentioned, the point was to showcase their over-reliance one ki sensing. Yes, it was poorly handled but my assumption has always been that there was no other sense they could have used to give 17 the advantage in.

In Buu he had been taken out of the fighting role almost completely. In Super he was not.

Even distracted he has better hearing than 17,so yeah he was presented as an idiot.
Also yay now he is fighting again only for his own teamates to tell him he sucks,thats like someone who lost 1 leg bragging to someone who had lost 2 legs.

His magical girl transformation seems to be Toei exclusive so far.
In ROF he still beat up Freeza,in BOG he still did better than ssj3 Goku,he acted like a buffon but he also got a cool moment and he acted like that for a reason unlike Piccolo in the Buu arc say.

The comparrison is not valid at all because Toriyama wrote Vegeta having plenty of good moments to make up for his low moments,Piccolo does not.
Even the like 2 at best good moments he has seem to be from Toei.

Like how much more obvious does Toriyama needs to make it?
Would you not be convinced till Furikawa asks Toriyama why his character keeps getting shafted like Furuya did?
His VA even said he spent more of his time being Gohan's housemaid than anything.
.

A large proportions of his fans seem to disagree.Loudly. Point was you can extrapolate all sorts of behind-the-scenes intentions based on personal interpretations. In your example with Furukawa, he continued to say something like "-which is why I was happy he got to do a lot of fighting in the TOP" Left that one out.

No one here is denying his reduced importance, but some seem to really love blowing it out of proportions and making him a hopeless case.
Again, people have been pointing at 17 fans claiming "give it up, he''ll never be relevant again" for 20 years. Mai is now Trunks' love interest.

Who knows, maybe you are right, and he has switched from liking Piccolo to not caring about him. He never once said he cared about Freeza, though, but there he was, one of the main stars of the show. Same as with 17.



Also yeah, the way he thought up ways to figure out Prum's location was really neat. That episode get a lot of flak because of Tenshinhan's fate, but I think the bit with Piccolo and Gohan was really good (excluding the shield part)

[Whatever]

Gamisaras was clearly established as a fairly dangerous threat. Shantza's illusion technique was implied to cause some trouble before it was quickly thwarted by Piccolo's intervention. These eliminations weren't super major or anything, but it's not like they were more irrelevant than appropriate for Piccolo's role either.

Eh i will give you Gamisaras but Shantza was not a threat at all,without Gamisaras(or was it Damon)Shantaza's illusions would be harmless illusions.

You're contradicting yourself here. If he gets the credit for figuring out their plan, he couldn't have made "zero" contributions.

I'm just struggling to understand what people want, exactly. Can you provide some specific examples to illustrate your point? The only significant thing I can think of is that a lot of his fans seem to want him to get an arbitrary power-up for some reason.

Its not at all,he figured their plan yeah but what did that ammount to?Nothing since he had to shield Gohan and Goku and Vegeta figured it out without his help.
Did Piccolo figuring out their plan help had any kind of effect in taking out the snipers?If the answer is no(which it is)then he had 0 contributions.

Again people want him to have the relevance level he had in the Freeza and Cell arcs,in those arcs Piccolo was one of the important characters,he was part of the A group to to speak.
The problem is a power up is the only solution for him to even have a chance to get back his status he had back then.

[PFM18]

Piccolo kinda had his time being a prominent fighter from the end of DB to midway through DBZ. Once Cell absorbed 17, Piccolo's days of being a relevant fighter were over. Then his role was mentoring the kids in the Buu Arc and in DBS he has been mentoring Gohan as his "primary" role. He mentored Gohan before DBS but that was when he was also a fighter and he was still first and foremost one of the "Z fighters" or "Z Senshi"

I guess what I am saying is, unless you are rewatching the first half of DBZ, you shouldn't expect much from Piccolo. Although it is interesting that he is being promoted so much

[majinwarman]

I hope so, he's been sidelined for too long. The way he's been advertised and shown along characters like Goku and Vegeta (in the designs sheets) makes me hopeful for his role in this movie. I don't think it's a coincidence that they chose him out of all of the characters.

I just hope that he can at least not be used a shield and do something for once.

[emperior]

Piccolo getting advertised near Goku and Vegeta may or may not mean something. I mean, besides Whis and Beerus he was the most obvious choice to get first showcased besides Goku and Vegeta. Even though he hasn't had a prominent role ever since Cell arc as a fighter, he is still a very important character and they always try to give him a role, however little it is, in every main arc unlike the likes of Yamcha and Tenshinan, for example. The only other characters who get this treatment are Krillin and Bulma, who always get a little role too in each arc.

If they wanted to show exactly 3 iconic characters, the other choices besides Goku and Vegeta, in my opinion, would have been Bulma, Krillin, Gohan, Tenshinan, Roshi, Android 17, Android 18 and Freeza.
Let's analyze each one:
- Bulma and Android 18: It seems like they want to save the "super cute" female characters for later, although Bulma could have been fitting to show with Goku and Vegeta.
- Krillin: Again, he would have been fitting but power wise he is weaker than Piccolo.
- Gohan: He would have been the 3rd Saiyan and we also don't know whether he will go back to retirement after the ToP.
- Tenshinan: He is way less important than Piccolo and is not even expected to have a role in this movie, so his inclusion may still be a surprise in case the main plot revolves around many enemies. Same for Roshi, and the same applies also for Android 17, whose inclusion may be saved for a big moment in the movie considering his popularity and the fact he is the MVP of the Tournament.
- Freeza: We know he should be appearing but they may be trying to keep his inclusion a little mysterious, and marketing him near Goku and Vegeta may be weird as people would start speculating about Freeza being a good guy in the movie etc...

In conclusion, marketing Piccolo with Goku and Vegeta was probably the best choice and it didn't surprise anyone to see him besides the two Saiyans. Even if Piccolo has a big role in the movie, his design being already shown was probably not a choice based on the importance of his role in the movie.

[omaro34]

Never in a million years will they make piccolo relevant again, plotwise, strength wise or both.

The sooner some people accept this as I did a while back the sooner people can stop making threads like this.

[Marlowe89]

Eh i will give you Gamisaras but Shantza was not a threat at all,without Gamisaras(or was it Damon)Shantaza's illusions would be harmless illusions.

Right. The point of Shantza's ability is that it made an invisible opponent even harder to track, so he played a supportive role for his team rather than a strength-based one. Therefore, Piccolo eliminating him was instrumental to Universe 4's defeat.

What exactly did he do in the Freeza and Cell arcs, other than powering up and managing to fight a drastically weaker form of the main antagonist? You could easily make the argument that he was quickly sidelined by the plot either way. I think the issue is that people just want him to be in the same league as Goku and Vegeta, which simply isn't necessary in my opinion. As someone who does enjoy Piccolo's character, I wouldn't mind the fanservice if it happened, but it would have to complement his purpose in the story to some degree; otherwise it's just meaningless pandering.

[Whatever]

Eh i will give you Gamisaras but Shantza was not a threat at all,without Gamisaras(or was it Damon)Shantaza's illusions would be harmless illusions.

Right. The point of Shantza's ability is that it made an invisible opponent even harder to track, so he played a supportive role for his team rather than a strength-based one. Therefore, Piccolo eliminating him was instrumental to Universe 4's defeat.

What exactly did he do in the Freeza and Cell arcs, other than powering up and managing to fight a drastically weaker form of the main antagonist? You could easily make the argument that he was quickly sidelined by the plot either way. I think the issue is that people just want him to be in the same league as Goku and Vegeta, which simply isn't necessary in my opinion. As someone who does enjoy Piccolo's character, I wouldn't mind the fanservice if it happened, but it would have to complement his purpose in the story to some degree; otherwise it's just meaningless pandering.

In the Freeza arc he saved Goku from certain death by kicking Freeza before he death beamed in the face.
In the Cell arc again,he was the one that approached Cell and learnt about his origins,which led to Trunks and Krillin killing Present Cell,again he was the one that did the most plot relevant stuff during this specific period.He is the reason why Cell did not go after sucking the saiyans and other Z fighters energy because he was scared of being killed by him.

He could not do all of those things without his power ups.
Also this is dragonball,the stronger you are,the more chances of being plot relevant you have,so yeah if he got a power up that would mean he would contribute to the story in some way.

[Saiga]

I much preferred Piccolo's role in the Boo arc over his roles in the Namek or Freeza arcs. The Freeza arc is easily the worst for him, because that huge power-up didn't mean jack. He came back to get beaten up, boring.

I don't think Super should have tried to make him relevant, he never was that great in such a role. Fighting in the TOP is natural since they need numbers, but he didn't need big flashy moments.

I liked the way the manga did his universe 6 and TOP fights. They didn't hype him up or try too hard to make a big deal out of his moments, but he still got to look good for his relative position in the cast. It's a shame that the manga doesn't have the pacing to allow more character interactions and downtime, where Piccolo could get some more interesting parts.