"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

Chaozu and Tien died for nothing, and people to this day still make fun of how pathetic Yamcha was. Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, and Yajirobe got a moment, but not everyone.

It doesn't matter if they "died for nothing." Their deaths were incredibly poignant and showcased the deepest extent of their close friendship, especially in the anime. That qualifies as having a "moment to shine." Same with Yamcha beating the Saibaman and getting killed by him in spectacular fashion afterwards only to inspire Kuririn.

Just because a character has a poor performance in a fight does not mean they were poorly utilized. A poor performance can be incredibly positive for a character (or the surrounding cast) depending on the way it's executed. It's the difference between the way these characters were dispatched of in the Saiyan arc - with respect and dignity - that contrasts so much with the way characters are disposed of in this arc - at random and without purpose - and the fact that so many people fail to grasp the difference is incredibly troubling. It is very telling that this fanbase equates "having a moment to shine" with "getting a win."

[Zephyr]

I sure would hate to see how people would react nowadays if the Saiyan arc was contemporary and Nappa was just trashing everyone. "Toriyama wasting Yamcha, Chaozu, and Tenshinhan! Why doesn't Krillin get a moment to shine? Etc."

Ignoring the fact nobody is asking for "moments", literally everyone in the Nappa fight got their own "moment to shine."

It's the difference between the way that the "disposable" characters were used during the Saiyan arc and the way they're being used in this arc that shows how thoughtless this arc is.

I think you're both missing the proper analogy.

I'd say that the "disposable" characters in this arc are more analogous to the Saibaimen in the Saiyan arc, and the bulk of the preliminary fighters at the Tenkaichi Budokai. Sometimes named, but not always; not really established at all in the mind of the reader; small fry opponents who are eliminated early on, and/or with ease. Yamcha, Chaozu, and Tenshinhan feel more like Hit in this arc. They're established, were once important to or the focal point of at least one prior story arc, and they go out relatively early in this arc, but not unceremoniously.

And, once again, to call this arc "thoughtless" is to ignore a lot of what's going on. The reality is that what's going on is a detour from what you wanted and expected to go on, and you've essentially said this much yourself.

[Doctor.]

And, once again, to call this arc "thoughtless" is to ignore a lot of what's going on.

I haven't ignored it, I read your previous post, but the way the key players in this arc are being utilized is largely by-the-numbers; it's all very competent and predictable and linear. Is that inherently wrong? No, not really. But it makes for a very flavorless experience. And that was where the creative use of the minor characters could come in to spice things up.

[Bergamo]

Chaozu and Tien died for nothing, and people to this day still make fun of how pathetic Yamcha was. Piccolo, Gohan, Krillin, and Yajirobe got a moment, but not everyone.

It doesn't matter if they "died for nothing." Their deaths were incredibly poignant and showcased the deepest extent of their close friendship, especially in the anime. That qualifies as having a "moment to shine." Same with Yamcha beating the Saibaman and getting killed by him in spectacular fashion afterwards only to inspire Kuririn.

Just because a character has a poor performance in a fight does not mean they were poorly utilized. A poor performance can be incredibly positive for a character (or the surrounding cast) depending on the way it's executed. It's the difference between the way these characters were dispatched of in the Saiyan arc - with respect and dignity - that contrasts so much with the way characters are disposed of in this arc - at random and without purpose - and the fact that so many people fail to grasp the difference is incredibly troubling. It is very telling that this fanbase equates "having a moment to shine" with "getting a win."

I completely agree that poor performance doesn't equate to a poor usage of a character, but I personally don't think that Tien/Chaozu/Yamcha's deaths were anything special or are in any way striving to achieve the same thing as the "moments" in the tournament of power. Krillin, Tien, 18, and Piccolo are definitely present in the story in the manga version of the ToP even though they didn't get a "moment."

[Zephyr]

it's all very competent and predictable and linear. Is that inherently wrong? No, not really. But it makes for a very flavorless experience. And that was where the creative use of the minor characters could come in to spice things up.

Well, I can't fault you for being dissatisfied with it being as by the numbers as it is. Though, I personally think having Freeza as a reluctant ally (and the rest of the similar "humanizing" thematic underpinning with #17, Jiren, and Zeno), coupled with Goku "mastering" a skill several arcs in the making, makes for a fairly flavorful experience. I won't disagree that showing some more weird abilities from the other fighters would have spiced it up, and more spice would be welcome, but I think things are fairly spicy as they are.

[Doctor.]

it's all very competent and predictable and linear. Is that inherently wrong? No, not really. But it makes for a very flavorless experience. And that was where the creative use of the minor characters could come in to spice things up.

Well, I can't fault you for being dissatisfied with it being as by the numbers as it is. Though, I personally think having Freeza as a reluctant ally (and the rest of the similar "humanizing" thematic underpinning with #17, Jiren, and Zeno), coupled with Goku "mastering" a skill several arcs in the making, makes for a fairly flavorful experience. I won't disagree that showing some more weird abilities from the other fighters would have spiced it up, and more spice would be welcome, but I think things are fairly spicy as they are.

Obviously I think that's all interesting stuff, for #17 and Freeza more-so (at least in the anime, we still have to see how the manga concludes their arc) than Jiren and Zeno, but I didn't say Toriyama was completely devoid of good ideas anymore. But the good ideas being done well (in either version) are a drop in the bucket of good ideas done poorly, which in turn is a very small bucket compared to the "bad ideas" one. Character usage is only part of the problems I have with this arc. The U6 arc is just as uninteresting in how it uses its characters and I don't have much of a problem with that one; I think it's boring and bland, but that's about it.

[Spider-Man]

I'm hoping for a good climax with U7 vs U11 at least on the level of Goku vs Merged Zamasu with good choreography and tension.

[Zephyr]

But the good ideas being done well (in either version) are a drop in the bucket of good ideas done poorly, which in turn is a very small bucket compared to the "bad ideas" one. Character usage is only part of the problems I have with this arc.

I don't really look at any ideas as being "bad"; the original run showed, to me at least, that there's no such thing as a bad idea, it's all in the execution. The entire manga is filled with Toriyama shamelessly recycling old ideas of his own, paying constant homage to all manner of pop culture, and appropriating ideas from other peoples' works. What makes Dragon Ball special is seeing all of that through his lens. While that means any version of Super not predominantly by his hand has an inherent difficulty in capturing that (since it is not his lens, but an attempt at recreating it), it also means that nothing is bad on principle. It's all execution.

Telling a smaller story using something like the Tournament of Power as a backdrop is, in your view if I understand correctly, an inherently bad idea. Since I don't think any idea is inherently bad, I'm more concerned with what kind of small story they're telling using the Tournament of Power as a backdrop. And given where the anime went (ie: what kind of small story the Tournament of Power told, which is a humanizing one about camaraderie), I like the kind of story it told. Naturally, it executed that small story awkwardly, largely by having way too much bloat. The manga, I feel, is executing that smaller story better, by focusing on less. Like you said, the manga hasn't finished yet, so we don't know entirely how it concludes, and my above assessment does depend on it largely concluding in the same way. But the correct pieces are falling into place.

I think that given Toriyama's level of involvement with the main series at this point, it's better for each individual story to be shorter and more focused. Either films or short manga arcs that you could easily read in an hour or two, where his involvement can be more direct. They can use whatever cosmic scale event they want as a backdrop, as long as the story they're telling is interesting.

[Zen Yabuki]

I guess I missed that battle royale you guys are all talking so glowingly about.

All I see are almost the exact some elements of the battle royale in the anime, being handled by a creator who is far less invested in the idea, and has so hurriedly streamlined the main stage of it in order to handle stuff his more familiar with.

Hopefully that means things are just going to go up from here.

This is where I’m at. The manga hasn’t done any better with the battle royals aspect than the anime. Both were pretty terrible at capturing it.

[Tai Lung]

-additionally, it is very convenient that all are still, and nobody stops kale (goku, vegeta, jiren or gohan
-that kale does not attack anyone in the universe 7
-that kale is out of control but does not kill anyone and nobody is worried that he does

Kale attacked Freeza and Goku from U7. She became more out of control and started attacking everyone without prejudice, even Caulifla.
Vegeta and Jiren are not wasting everybody cause they are conserving stamina. Compared to a Kale, who "lost her sense and reason."

BTW, Hit was developed on, more so in the manga than the anime. He understood that training his real power [ki] is what is important. Not just relying on gimmick time skip.

kale does not attack roshi, gohan or 17 etc
everyone lets her do what she wants kale in spite of how dangerous it is and gohan intervenes when it has already merged
there is the problem if the warriors are so weak should not generate any effort to eliminate them all as did kale

for nothing to improve his ability and his power was something he learned when he saw goku who always looked for a way to improve, before did not do it because it was never necessary
he was given a special chapter where he showed his killer techniques to face goku again showing more of his rivalry
also in the anime hit proves to be good team leader with his rescue to caulifla and apart from supporting them to continue fighting while he was in charge of jiren, that is quite taking into account that it was someone who worked alone

[Miracles]

kale does not attack roshi, gohan or 17 etc
everyone lets her do what she wants kale in spite of how dangerous it is and gohan intervenes when it has already merged
there is the problem if the warriors are so weak should not generate any effort to eliminate them all as did kale

for nothing to improve his ability and his power was something he learned when he saw goku who always looked for a way to improve, before did not do it because it was never necessary
he was given a special chapter where he showed his killer techniques to face goku again showing more of his rivalry
also in the anime hit proves to be good team leader with his rescue to caulifla and apart from supporting them to continue fighting while he was in charge of jiren, that is quite taking into account that it was someone who worked alone

Yeah, but in the anime, Hit did nothing about his one trick pony-ness. In the manga he trains his overall strength and overcame that weakness. Better development in the manga.
Also, no one attacked Kale from U7 cause she went after other people. Remember Vegeta stated there was no need for him to step in cause she was gonna destroy herself or be tossed off by U11?

[Tai Lung]

kale does not attack roshi, gohan or 17 etc
everyone lets her do what she wants kale in spite of how dangerous it is and gohan intervenes when it has already merged
there is the problem if the warriors are so weak should not generate any effort to eliminate them all as did kale

for nothing to improve his ability and his power was something he learned when he saw goku who always looked for a way to improve, before did not do it because it was never necessary
he was given a special chapter where he showed his killer techniques to face goku again showing more of his rivalry
also in the anime hit proves to be good team leader with his rescue to caulifla and apart from supporting them to continue fighting while he was in charge of jiren, that is quite taking into account that it was someone who worked alone

Yeah, but in the anime, Hit did nothing about his one trick pony-ness. In the manga he trains his overall strength and overcame that weakness. Better development in the manga.
Also, no one attacked Kale from U7 cause she went after other people. Remember Vegeta stated there was no need for him to step in cause she was gonna destroy herself or be tossed off by U11?

I still do not see the point both have development as a warrior to improve their skills in fact hence the time skip is more effective also acquired a new ability Cage of Time.
besides that hit (anime) has better development not only as a warrior but also as a character in general when supporting his teammates which, as I said before , sincerely for me both cases are valuable

it only vegeta and it was when kale had finished with 4 universes and it was threatened by the universe 11
and before ... kale almost eliminates them to vegeta and toppo
As I said Goku and Frieza let her go ..

[Doctor.]

I don't really look at any ideas as being "bad".

You're right, that was thoughtless of me. Especially considering I've said this exact same thing on this forum before.

Let's just say I'm unhappy with the way the ideas were executed, not because they were inherently bad, but because I feel not enough thought went into them. Obviously there's no such thing as a bad concept, but there is such a thing as a concept hard to execute, and a short story with such a large scope setting is one of them. Not because they're not focusing on the things I wanted them to focus, but because even the things they did focus on feel poorly done (Jiren's development and Zeno's inconsistent characterization come to mind).

[jplaya2023]

thank god the manga isn't canon. I read this entire chapter with the wtf on the entire time. The power scaling is laughable, and vegeta confirmed what i been saying about kale's and non canon brolly's form all this time. It's basically ssj1 grade 3 wihtout speed loss

Eh, The Manga is also canon. People should look up canon's def from a dic.

" The works of a particular author or artist that are recognized as genuine "

if 2 sources directly contradict eachother, how can both be canon?

[1345521]

Dbs manga is SO MUCH BETTER THEN THE ANIME . Another huge success by toyotaro AKIRAS CHOSEN ONE putting toei anime to sham e. now with the movie having ssj god and no sign of kaioken and evolution , hopefully akira is sterring toei to return to its roots in adapting dragon ball manga.

[Aizamasu]

thank god the manga isn't canon. I read this entire chapter with the wtf on the entire time. The power scaling is laughable, and vegeta confirmed what i been saying about kale's and non canon brolly's form all this time. It's basically ssj1 grade 3 wihtout speed loss

Eh, The Manga is also canon. People should look up canon's def from a dic.

" The works of a particular author or artist that are recognized as genuine "

if 2 sources directly contradict eachother, how can both be canon?

You can choose which canon to follow. There is the anime canon and then there is the manga canon.

[Miracles]

I still do not see the point both have development as a warrior to improve their skills in fact hence the time skip is more effective also acquired a new ability Cage of Time.
besides that hit (anime) has better development not only as a warrior but also as a character in general when supporting his teammates which, as I said before , sincerely for me both cases are valuable

it only vegeta and it was when kale had finished with 4 universes and it was threatened by the universe 11
and before ... kale almost eliminates them to vegeta and toppo
As I said Goku and Frieza let her go ..

What's the problem with letting Kale go? Why expand energy to defeat her when Goku only cares for Jiren, Freeza has bigger plans, Vegeta gave his reasons and the pride troopers were handling her pretty good.

BTW Hit putting trust in his teammates isn't really development that is a contradiction of who he is. In the manga he stays in character and he develops his power unlike anime Hit. This is DB, a fighter manga where emotional bonds isn't put much stock into. This is why the manga is more like the old DB.

[dragon boss z]

Eh, The Manga is also canon. People should look up canon's def from a dic.

" The works of a particular author or artist that are recognized as genuine "

if 2 sources directly contradict eachother, how can both be canon?

You can choose which canon to follow. There is the anime canon and then there is the manga canon.

I agree, when it comes to Super, neither the anime or manga is 100% done by Toriyama and they are just adaptations of the same plot points. Both are official continuations of Toriyama's story, just adapted in different ways.

[Zephyr]

The real clincher in this silly "canon" debate will be the new film: does the film take after the manga, or the anime? Both in some combination? Neither?

[dragon boss z]

Dbs manga is SO MUCH BETTER THEN THE ANIME . Another huge success by toyotaro AKIRAS CHOSEN ONE putting toei anime to sham e. now with the movie having ssj god and no sign of kaioken and evolution , hopefully akira is sterring toei to return to its roots in adapting dragon ball manga.

I kind of want them to make movies/specials of the U6, Black, and ToP arcs based off the manga (but with some slight tweeks to enhance them). Kind of like the specials they made redoing arcs of one piece in movie form.