"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Forced, flaccid and over before I can feel any sense of climax. This was the worst Dragon Ball orgasm I've ever had, Toyo!

This chapter is so empty for the most part, the fights being there just to go "Oh man, look how cool Gohan and Roshi are! Even Kefla's admitting that she can't stand up to such a mighty foe as Universe 7's Saiyans", it's just a long wank that somehow gets Goku UI briefly. Gohan VS Kefla was a boring and nothing fight that felt almost like padding (Most of it takes place offscreen? What the hell?), you could have it just be the last two pages of it and nothing would be lost. Gohan is still being a cringey twerp. "I don't rely on my Saiyan blood, I'm being human!" Oh fuck off you liar, your power would never be so high if you didn't have all those Saiyan cells in you. Stop trying to pointlessly separate yourself from the genes just to look cool, especially when the chapter before you were making it a point about how you were a Saiyan. The characters in this fight have little connection, little emotion, little dynamic and most fo their fight is off screen. WHy am I supposed to care again? Oh, NOW Toyo decides to attempt adding weight to the erasure. Man, that might have meant anything if he tried more in the build-up department.

Roshi's bullshit. Jesus christ. First, in true fanfic wank fashion, they have to regress another character for the sake of making this character look good. Goku's suddenly an inexperienced clown who thinks just power is all that matters in a fight? Sure. Oh, Vegeta was also like that even though he clearly wasn't just power? Right. And of course, Goku didn't actually remember the lessons taught to him by other Masters that Roshi shouldn't know about? Yeah, when they admit that they have nothing left to teach Goku, I'm sure they were really just saying that Goku wasn't listening to them. So, Roshi charges in and Jiren finds it difficult to hit him... Somehow. And so Roshi is knocked out of the stage with nothing. No emotion, no investment, no reason to care. He was just there to be wanked off for one fight and give Goku the next plot point.

And so Goku briefly attains Ultra Instinct. Somehow. He really looked into his heart there apparently. Worst of all, it's treated so casually in terms of the way the moment is presented. Beerus reacts a little, but aside from that, it's just like "Oh, I'm Ultra Instinct Omen now. Neat." It lasts for two seconds and does nothing, there isn't anything here to get you excited about when Goku can use the form again. Like the whole chapter, it just feels so forced.

This made me laughed more than it should and I completely forgot about Gohan's 'I'm a Saiyan from Earth' last chapter, and now he's all 'I don't need my Saiyan gene, I get stronger like a human'. Yes, because all humans get power-up from an old perverted god dancing around them for a day.

Also good point about all his teachers saying, 'I have nothing left to teach you' except the whole self-movement thing that you never listened about, but who cares about that.

[emperior]

Roshi’s bullshit. Jesus christ. First, in true fanfic wank fashion, they have to regress another character for the sake of making this character look good. Goku's suddenly an inexperienced clown who thinks just power is all that matters in a fight? Sure. Oh, Vegeta was also like that even though he clearly wasn't just power? Right. And of course, Goku didn't actually remember the lessons taught to him by other Masters that Roshi shouldn't know about? Yeah, when they admit that they have nothing left to teach Goku, I'm sure they were really just saying that Goku wasn't listening to them. So, Roshi charges in and Jiren finds it difficult to hit him... Somehow. And so Roshi is knocked out of the stage with nothing. No emotion, no investment, no reason to care. He was just there to be wanked off for one fight and give Goku the next plot point.

Perfectly said. Basically this chapter in a nutshell. I honestly cannot believe some people are defending this. There’s literally no excuse, and I am surprised Toriyama gave Toyotaro the ok for this.

[LightBing]

First off I just want to commend the discourse that's happening even if I don't agree with some of the criticism. I hope we can keep this up going forward and look the material in the eyes for it's content. What happened during the leak period was embarrassing.

Since I don't want to quote everyone I hope my evaluation of the chapter touches many valid points being raised.

Gohan vs Kefla is the blatant weakness here. Besides the heartfelt elimination of Universe 6 - Champa basically -, it adds almost nothing to the story(kudos for Vados expression).
We all know Gohan's Mr.Prodigy and I would buy him getting super strong, the problem is that the journey is basically non-existent. It's almost like Freeza and his off-screen training.
What hurts the most is the question mark about Kefla's power which doesn't allows us to map his progress. Did get to Super Boohan level? I guess I could buy that. SSJB level? Nah that's ridiculous.

Unfortunately the rushing aspect which in this arc started last chapter with Kale's rampage continues here. Kefla vs Gohan didn't need a full chapter but what we we're given wasn't enough specially since Gohan supposedly grew immensely during battle. For Toyotarõ this was an afterthought.

The good stuff: Muten Roshi. I don't agree with the views here about Goku surpassing his master to the point that he didn't need any guidance. Power - which is theme - isn't everything and if one read Dragon Ball they would knew that Muten Roshi never taught anyone to fight. He offered a training regiment and spiritual advice, in this chapter he's simple perpetuating his role here.

While power isn't everything it's still the most important factor, which is why after the slight shock at Muten Roshi Imperfect Ultra Instinct(we need to get a good name for this) Jiren still dispatches him in a single shoot.

It doesn't matter if Muten Roshi had this during Nappa or Freeza, he's weak they would still destroy him. It would be useless to taught his students this, first because he himself doesn't have it and second because it's not easy. The Hakaishins see this as an incredibly advanced technique. It only applies now to Goku because he has years of experience with various masters and battle scenarios beyond imagination.

Muten Roshi role here is nothing more than excellent.

Goku's bad characterization, well I'm not sure it is.

His power up was a "nothing else I can do" kinda of ordeal. He didn't achieve Ultra Instinct just because of Muten Roshi, this has been his story arc. Since the start he's trying to climb the wall, Toyotarõ informed us of this. He didn't figure it out, but it's implied he's thought about it a whole lot and he acknowledges he needs it to defeat Jiren.
Muten Roshi like a good teacher puts things in perspective for his student to figure out the problem that's been plaguing him since forever.

So with all this baggage his power up moment doesn't feel like him being dumb but more about him being pushed into the corner. His Ultra Instinct moment felt earned, it compounded the current arc and his whole journey in the martial arts. I loved it.

I would give this chapter 7.8 out of 10. The Gohan and Kefla stuff holds it back.

[Exline]

This has derailed into one of the worst and most uninteresting manga I have ever read.

The only enjoyable aspect of this chapter was the teacher moment between Roshi and Goku, which I thought was great up until Goku claims he was never a great student... yet he is one of many of the strongest fighters in existence.

Roshi vs. Jiren wasn't offensive, I don't understand the problem with it other than that it is just boring.

Just as boring as Gohan vs. Kefla. Holy shit Toyotaro is crap with storyboarding now. It honestly feels as if I'm reading crappy fanfiction now compared to how well he did with the FT Arc and the beginning of the ToP Arc.

I think a replacement is in need, or it's probably better to just end the manga. I hate seeing franchises I've loved return only to get shat on with crappy writing that just makes it hard to enjoy anymore.

[emperior]

The good stuff: Muten Roshi. I don't agree with the views here about Goku surpassing his master to the point that he didn't need any guidance. Power - which is theme - isn't everything and if one read Dragon Ball they would knew that Muten Roshi never taught anyone to fight. He offered a training regiment and spiritual advice, in this chapter he's simple perpetuating his role here.

While power isn't everything it's still the most important factor, which is why after the slight shock at Muten Roshi Imperfect Ultra Instinct(we need to get a good name for this) Jiren still dispatches him in a single shoot.

It doesn't matter if Muten Roshi had this during Nappa or Freeza, he's weak they would still destroy him. It would be useless to taught his students this, first because he himself doesn't have it and second because it's not easy. The Hakaishins see this as an incredibly advanced technique. It only applies now to Goku because he has years of experience with various masters and battle scenarios beyond imagination.

Muten Roshi role here is nothing more than excellent.

But Goku not needing guidance from his old masters anymore was something always established at the end of each training with them back in the manga, which is why it makes no sense for Roshi to still have such a important teaching for Goku.
As you said, Roshi never taught them how to fight. He only trained Goku and Krillin and then Yamcha to get physically stronger. That was the Turtle way. It’s especially ironic how Roshi is the same commending Goku for focusing too much on strength and giving the blame to Vegeta and Freeza, while it was him in the first place who taught it.
The technique is incredibly advanced, so it would have surely made a difference if Goku and co. had it before, as they could have built upon it.

[HeroR]

The good stuff: Muten Roshi. I don't agree with the views here about Goku surpassing his master to the point that he didn't need any guidance. Power - which is theme - isn't everything and if one read Dragon Ball they would knew that Muten Roshi never taught anyone to fight. He offered a training regiment and spiritual advice, in this chapter he's simple perpetuating his role here.

While power isn't everything it's still the most important factor, which is why after the slight shock at Muten Roshi Imperfect Ultra Instinct(we need to get a good name for this) Jiren still dispatches him in a single shoot.

It doesn't matter if Muten Roshi had this during Nappa or Freeza, he's weak they would still destroy him. It would be useless to taught his students this, first because he himself doesn't have it and second because it's not easy. The Hakaishins see this as an incredibly advanced technique. It only applies now to Goku because he has years of experience with various masters and battle scenarios beyond imagination.

Muten Roshi role here is nothing more than excellent.

But Goku not needing guidance from his old masters anymore was something always established at the end of each training with them back in the manga, which is why it makes no sense for Roshi to still have such a important teaching for Goku.
As you said, Roshi never taught them how to fight. He only trained Goku and Krillin and then Yamcha to get physically stronger. That was the Turtle way. It’s especially ironic how Roshi is the same commending Goku for focusing too much on strength and giving the blame to Vegeta and Freeza, while it was him in the first place who taught it.
The technique is incredibly advanced, so it would have surely made a difference if Goku and co. had it before, as they could have built upon it.

Here's a better question, when did Roshi learn his bootleg version of UI? He certainly didn't know it in Dragon Ball, otherwise he would have danced around Goku and Tien.

[Zephyr]

Enjoyed this chapter.

While neither version of this arc's characters gave real good reason for even thinking to include Roshi, in both versions he helped sell the point that power isn't everything. The anime showed him using his diverse repertoire of techniques, which was really awesome (though, admittedly, this felt more background compared to the pure fanservice of him just owning people left and right). The manga, however, helped integrate Roshi's "point" into Goku's "arc", if you want to call it that, of learning Ultra Instinct. Here, we have Roshi make explicit the bridge between the teachings of his old masters, and his current one. I really dig that.

Ultra Instinct Omen's debut is another thing I feel both mediums handled well. In the anime, we had probably Super's best episode up to that point, complete with solid animation and art, top notch choreography, and a killer insert song. While it might not be as "epic" in the manga, I think it gels better with the surrounding story bits. A Genki Dama backfiring is a cool way to trigger Goku's new teaser form, but I think the manga takes the cake here. The point that "power isn't everything" that Roshi sells in both versions, as well as the manga's exclusive linking and bridging of seemingly-disparate martial arts teachings from various masters, is actually used to help immediately foreshadow, and inspire, Ultra Instinct Omen's debut.

Now that Gohan's eliminated, I guess I can give my own "final thoughts" on him. Both versions had him go out in a cool way, sacrificing himself. The anime had him work together with Freeza (and Freeza + Team Work is always good), while the manga had him holding his own against the big powerhouse of an entire universe. I think I prefer the anime's take there, ultimately, because "team work" was supposed to be a major strategy (as far as Gohan, Piccolo, and the earthlings were concerned), and so it's nice to see that manifest in Gohan's big final maneuver. Likewise, again, Freeza + Team Work is really, really good; it's one of my favorite things about this arc, regardless of medium; it's one of my favorite things about Super, and modern Dragon Ball in general, regardless of medium. I think the anime also wins when it comes to answering the question: "How does Gohan, champion of justice, react to the moral dilemma of participating in the Tournament of Power?" When Gohan eliminates Obuni (and thus dooms Universe 10 to erasure), Gohan sees the picture of Obuni's family, and you can tell he's conflicted over it. The manga didn't really do the same thing. Likewise, he doesn't really think much about it surrounding his elimination of Kafla (and subsequent erasure of Universe 6). I'm not the kind of person who's upset that this arc didn't make the moral dilemma mentioned above the main point of the arc, to the point where I'll call the arc bad just because of that, but Gohan's the guy you want to have maybe briefly ruminate over these things, I'd say. That said, I do like Gohan's speech about evolving more as an Earthling, than as a Saiyan.

The fight with Kafla was a thing that happened. Wasn't spectacular like the anime, and it didn't really give any poignant narrative bits, at least not for my initial reading. Was otherwise inoffensive, though.

[LightBing]

But Goku not needing guidance from his old masters anymore was something always established at the end of each training with them back in the manga, which is why it makes no sense for Roshi to still have such a important teaching for Goku.
As you said, Roshi never taught them how to fight. He only trained Goku and Krillin and then Yamcha to get physically stronger. That was the Turtle way. It’s especially ironic how Roshi is the same commending Goku for focusing too much on strength and giving the blame to Vegeta and Freeza, while it was him in the first place who taught it.
The technique is incredibly advanced, so it would have surely made a difference if Goku and co. had it before, as they could have built upon it.

Understand that Goku's first answer to climb the wall wasn't power. He's been fighting Jiren for a while and when pushed to edge goes for power.

Muten Roshi could never taught this to anyone, first he doesn't know it since he fails and acknowledges his failure. He's not teaching the concept to Goku he's telling to look at all the information given to him. Only Goku after all these years and all theses battles and all these teachings could reach it. He's pushing Goku in the right direction that's all; giving perspective for Goku to find the answer in "his heart" to quote the chapter.

Even if Muten Roshi knew about the technique back when he met Kuririn and Goku he would never teach them. He never taught anyone the Kamehameha. Asking for it is asking for out-of-character behavior. The Kamehameha is something he took 50 years(something like that(?)) to develop and due to it's difficulty he never taught them, when his students tried it he always had something to say and always questioned them. Now imagine this applied to Ultra Instinct something he doesn't master, therefore would never teach and something that we know is so difficult not even Beerus who lived for thousands of years controls.

[Raphael_Z]

The good stuff: Muten Roshi. I don't agree with the views here about Goku surpassing his master to the point that he didn't need any guidance. Power - which is theme - isn't everything and if one read Dragon Ball they would knew that Muten Roshi never taught anyone to fight. He offered a training regiment and spiritual advice, in this chapter he's simple perpetuating his role here.

While power isn't everything it's still the most important factor, which is why after the slight shock at Muten Roshi Imperfect Ultra Instinct(we need to get a good name for this) Jiren still dispatches him in a single shoot.

It doesn't matter if Muten Roshi had this during Nappa or Freeza, he's weak they would still destroy him. It would be useless to taught his students this, first because he himself doesn't have it and second because it's not easy. The Hakaishins see this as an incredibly advanced technique. It only applies now to Goku because he has years of experience with various masters and battle scenarios beyond imagination.

Muten Roshi role here is nothing more than excellent.

But Goku not needing guidance from his old masters anymore was something always established at the end of each training with them back in the manga, which is why it makes no sense for Roshi to still have such a important teaching for Goku.
As you said, Roshi never taught them how to fight. He only trained Goku and Krillin and then Yamcha to get physically stronger. That was the Turtle way. It’s especially ironic how Roshi is the same commending Goku for focusing too much on strength and giving the blame to Vegeta and Freeza, while it was him in the first place who taught it.
The technique is incredibly advanced, so it would have surely made a difference if Goku and co. had it before, as they could have built upon it.

Here's a better question, when did Roshi learn his bootleg version of UI? He certainly didn't know it in Dragon Ball, otherwise he would have danced around Goku and Tien.

He probably learned it in the same off-screen school of Frieza and A17. One could even argue that, in the Manga, Roshi is actually now stronger than Krillin and Tien even though his stamina and endurance is low (he's basically a one punch glass cannon). I was actually surprised that the 4th stronger Pride Trooper got taken out by Roshi solo.

[BlueBasilisk]

This chapter is so empty for the most part, the fights being there just to go "Oh man, look how cool Gohan and Roshi are! Even Kefla's admitting that she can't stand up to such a mighty foe as Universe 7's Saiyans", it's just a long wank that somehow gets Goku UI briefly. Gohan VS Kefla was a boring and nothing fight that felt almost like padding (Most of it takes place offscreen? What the hell?), you could have it just be the last two pages of it and nothing would be lost. Gohan is still being a cringey twerp. "I don't rely on my Saiyan blood, I'm being human!" Oh fuck off you liar, your power would never be so high if you didn't have all those Saiyan cells in you. Stop trying to pointlessly separate yourself from the genes just to look cool, especially when the chapter before you were making it a point about how you were a Saiyan. The characters in this fight have little connection, little emotion, little dynamic and most fo their fight is off screen. WHy am I supposed to care again? Oh, NOW Toyo decides to attempt adding weight to the erasure. Man, that might have meant anything if he tried more in the build-up department.

Wasn't any reason for this fight to happen. Kefla was gunning for Jiren in the previous chapter. She wanted to fight the final boss. Goku being right there next to him was just a bonus happy little accident. All Gohan did here was cost Universe 7 one of their strongest fighters to...stop Kefla from fighting Jiren, which only works to their advantage? Isn't he supposed to be the smart one?

[YamiGoku]

It Blows my mind that peapole are defending this chapter.

I don't know what is worst, Roshi suddenly knowing a version of UI or Roshi doing better against Jiren than UI Omen Goku...

At last Toyo could have made Roshi do his "UI" against a weaker opponent instead of freaking Jiren, who is a the level of the Gods!

I dont understand how someone can defend this, it makes absolutely no sense no matter how you explain it, and makes Jiren and UI Omen look really bad if Roshi can evade and block someone on their level.

[Raphael_Z]

-Gohan is blue tier in the anime and that's fine.
-Gohan defeats a slightly above blue tier opponent and that's awful.

People were not fine with Gohan raising his power to blue tier in the anime. The complaints about the power scaling was at an all time high around that time.
Kefla is not "slightly " above blue tier. Kale alone was knocking around Golden Freeza and was about to get the upper hand on Goku and Kefla is many times stronger.

-Jiren takes an entire episode to knock out base Vegeta and fails twice and that's fine.
-Jiren takes four pages to defeat Roshi and that's horrible.

Many people were not fine with that Vegeta episode either and you know it.
It should not have taken Jiren any number of pages to defeat Roshi.

I honestly don't know how some of you can continuously find excuses to defend this mess. You're all free to like it for whatever reason but I don't know how or why some manga fans convince themselves that this makes any sense...

Manga Kefla is weaker than Manga Legendary Super Saiyan Kale, it makes sense total sense if you ask me:

Kid Buu is wild uncontrolled power but the fusion (technically absorption but it's the same concept) of him and the Kaioshin resulted in Fat Buu who is WEAKER than Kid Buu but has better control on his power. I would say that Manga Kefla is probably between Ultimate Gohan (Buu Saga) level and Super Saiyan God (Red hair) level and so is TOP Gohan.

Manga Golden Frieza seems to be weaker than his Anime counterpart too although I do think that he would have found a way to beat Manga Kefla.

And Jiren...well, he was just curious to see what Roshi was doing. Jiren's not even at .001% of his full power/speed at this point. What surprised me is that Vegeta is completely wiping the floor with Toppo. I wonder if Toppo will get eliminated next chapter without transforming.

[Raphael_Z]

This chapter is so empty for the most part, the fights being there just to go "Oh man, look how cool Gohan and Roshi are! Even Kefla's admitting that she can't stand up to such a mighty foe as Universe 7's Saiyans", it's just a long wank that somehow gets Goku UI briefly. Gohan VS Kefla was a boring and nothing fight that felt almost like padding (Most of it takes place offscreen? What the hell?), you could have it just be the last two pages of it and nothing would be lost. Gohan is still being a cringey twerp. "I don't rely on my Saiyan blood, I'm being human!" Oh fuck off you liar, your power would never be so high if you didn't have all those Saiyan cells in you. Stop trying to pointlessly separate yourself from the genes just to look cool, especially when the chapter before you were making it a point about how you were a Saiyan. The characters in this fight have little connection, little emotion, little dynamic and most fo their fight is off screen. WHy am I supposed to care again? Oh, NOW Toyo decides to attempt adding weight to the erasure. Man, that might have meant anything if he tried more in the build-up department.

Wasn't any reason for this fight to happen. Kefla was gunning for Jiren in the previous chapter. She wanted to fight the final boss. Goku being right there next to him was just a bonus happy little accident. All Gohan did here was cost Universe 7 one of their strongest fighters to...stop Kefla from fighting Jiren, which only works to their advantage? Isn't he supposed to be the smart one?

Every single fighter in the TOP is stupid.

From invisible enemies that should have just remained hidden until the last minute to fighters being so prideful to the point that making a logical alliance against U11 never crosses their minds. I don't doubt that the combined power of Hit + Kefla + Gohan + Goku + Vegeta + A17 + Frieza would have completely moped the floor with the entire U11.

[Bullza]

I don't know what is worst, Roshi suddenly knowing a version of UI or Roshi doing better against Jiren than UI Omen Goku...

Well neither of that is really true.

Roshi doesn't actually know Ultra Instinct, they said he was doing something resembling it but was a far cry from it.

He also never did better than Ultra Instinct Goku because he literally lost it before he even threw a punch.

[prince212]

I’m still reading comments about how strong Roshi is ... seriously ? This chapter was about exactly the opposite and it’s clear
Roshi was the weakest of the u7 participants, but strength is not everything, that’s the point .
Yes it’s a surprise Roshi performance, because we as readers have been long time just relying on strength. Jiren himself is surprised , he’s the number one guy relying on strength and didn’t put much effort so he was fooled with roshis movements for some seconds ... unexpected for everybody.... but obviously that didn’t last once Jiren took a serious approach..
It remained me the drunken technique, that is based in the unexpected and relies on quality of movements rather than strength.
Chapter balance was great , introduction, development and ending are great .
That gag between 18 and Krillin put me a smile .
Negative points for kafla on her needs kinda giving up and not trusting in herself .
Art was really good ,I didn’t like that vegeta vs toppo made a doble kick each other and few pages later same happened with gohan and kafla , was repetitive.
Story wise this was the chapter in which DBS Manga took more risks than never ever , and in my opinion they succeeded , for the shake of entertaining us and giving us new content inside a content that we already know ..

[Lord Beerus]

Some scattered thoughts I had about Chapter 39:

- There was no payoff for Gohan becoming stronger before the Tournament Of Power. I don't understand why he couldn't beat Kelfa clean (if that the was plan, which in itself, is absurd). What's the point in blueballing Gohan's grand moment in the Super manga? Why couldn't the chapter have spent more time on the fight that it was actually spent time building up too?

- What's up with Gohan saying he's choosing to evolve a human rather than a Saiyan? What does that even mean? It makes no goddamn sense for Gohan, the character that has full heartedly relied on his Saiyan cells from day one, and even proudly declared himself as the son of Son Goku, for him to suddenly say he's not going to rely on his Saiyan blood anymore. It's so out of place and out of character. What is this supposed to lead to? Did Gohan abandon his Ultimate form? Are we never going to see his use Super Saiyan anymore? Is Gohan's base form THAT fucking strong? I don't know anymore. Gohan seems so directionless in the manga right now.

- I'm incredibly disappointed in the character (universe) shilling that Kefla did. I'm even more disappointed about the lack of closure of Caulifla and Kale individually.

- Vegeta vs Toppo continues to be bland and boring.

- Champa's send off was horrendous. There was no need for him to act like such an unrepentant dickhead. I hate to bring up this comparison, but the anime handled his erasure, along with Universe 6, with far more subtlety and nuance. Especially in regards to Beerus' response to it. Champs's send off in the manga definitely left a sour taste in my mouth.

- Goku's characterisation in his chapter was appalling. I hated how Goku was written as this power hungry, inexperienced noob who still needed to be taught the martial arts fundamentals from a person that he surpassed in power and skill decades ago. It's established very early on that Goku is a prodigy in battle, and with every mentor he find himself acquainted with, he grow beyond them in physical and mental prowess to the point where he doesn't need to learn anything from them anymore. But no, that's apparently not the case. Goku is actually still a novice student in martial arts who relies solely on rute strength to win a fight and is slow to pick up things in battle. I hate that character writing. Again... Goku is a goddamn prodigy in battle. Something that is hammered home constantly in the original story and other Dragon Ball material. He wouldn't have been training with Whis, the greatest martial artist in their universe, if that was the case. Goku is not a bad student in martial in the slightest. Hell, he becomes martial arts tutor himself to Gohan in the Cell arc. And he's nowhere near this clueless when it comes to adaptability in a high stakes battle that he need to someone to re-teach him a lesson he was already aware of. This all reeks of character regression, bordering on character assassination, for the purpose of glorifying Roshi and justifying his existence in the Tournament Of Power as a character who's not out of his depth, when it reality, he truly is. Which brings me to my next point...

- Roshi fighting Jiren. That's the kind of shit that can kill your suspension of disbelief in Dragon Ball. Even with all the skill in the world, the gap in power between Jiren and Roshi is far too fucking fucking big to try and reinforce the "power isn't everything" message. It especially doesn't help considering the manga provided any example of how raw power can overcome great skill with the fight against Hit. So this moral about how there is more to a battle than just strength just comes across as forced and a lesson far too late in the game to actually care any kind of emotional weight or personal investment. The story can't just start preaching about how you shouldn't just rely on battle power to win a fight when every fight in the Tournament Of Power has been decided by raw strength and not skill. Toyotaro needs to learn about "show, don't tell".

- Now I understand what angle Toyotaro was going for with Goku attaining Ultra Instinct in the way he doesn't, but the execution is terrible. I mean, what was the point of the Hakaishin mock battle royale during the Zen Exhibition Match if Goku is going to learn Ultra Instinct from Roshi? Why waste the time with Goku watching Beerus fight the other 11 Hakaishin, or, hell, why even bother with Goku training with Whis at all, if it's Roshi that gives his the knowledge and properly display needed, in regards to self movement in battle, to later acquire Ultra Instinct? All that build up of Ultra Instinct in the manga didn't really lead to anything. Which leads to my final thought...

- Ultra Instinct's debut and usage in the chapter was awful. This is essentially the endgame for Super, and it feels so anticlimactic for Goku to just suddenly attain the form because... he can. It just doesn't feel earned. You can perhaps get away with doing some like this in later occasions, with Goku initially attaining Ultra Instinct though pushing himself beyond his limits, like he, and several other Saiyans in the main cast have do so in the past. What makes it all the more disappointing is that Ultra Instinct didn't actually do anything in battle. And I don't mean that as in it didn't change the dynamics of Goku's confrontation with Jiren. No, I mean, it literally did nothing in battle. Goku didn't even throw a punch before Jiren clobbered him like he was nothing.

- Oh, and pacing is still terrible.

This chapter overall was abysmal and Toyotaro worst work on Dragon Ball to date. Not a damn thing worth revisiting in this chapter.

[HeroR]

-Gohan is blue tier in the anime and that's fine.
-Gohan defeats a slightly above blue tier opponent and that's awful.

People were not fine with Gohan raising his power to blue tier in the anime. The complaints about the power scaling was at an all time high around that time.
Kefla is not "slightly " above blue tier. Kale alone was knocking around Golden Freeza and was about to get the upper hand on Goku and Kefla is many times stronger.

-Jiren takes an entire episode to knock out base Vegeta and fails twice and that's fine.
-Jiren takes four pages to defeat Roshi and that's horrible.

Many people were not fine with that Vegeta episode either and you know it.
It should not have taken Jiren any number of pages to defeat Roshi.

I honestly don't know how some of you can continuously find excuses to defend this mess. You're all free to like it for whatever reason but I don't know how or why some manga fans convince themselves that this makes any sense...

Manga Kefla is weaker than Manga Legendary Super Saiyan Kale, it makes sense total sense if you ask me:

Kid Buu is wild uncontrolled power but the fusion (technically absorption but it's the same concept) of him and the Kaioshin resulted in Fat Buu who is WEAKER than Kid Buu but has better control on his power. I would say that Manga Kefla is probably between Ultimate Gohan (Buu Saga) level and Super Saiyan God (Red hair) level and so is TOP Gohan.

Manga Golden Frieza seems to be weaker than his Anime counterpart too although I do think that he would have found a way to beat Manga Kefla.

And Jiren...well, he was just curious to see what Roshi was doing. Jiren's not even at .001% of his full power/speed at this point. What surprised me is that Vegeta is completely wiping the floor with Toppo. I wonder if Toppo will get eliminated next chapter without transforming.

It was stated last chapter that Kelfa was stronger than Kale. And why would a fusion be weaker than their counterpart?

[YamiGoku]

I don't know what is worst, Roshi suddenly knowing a version of UI or Roshi doing better against Jiren than UI Omen Goku...

Well neither of that is really true.

Roshi doesn't actually know Ultra Instinct, they said he was doing something resembling it but was a far cry from it.

He also never did better than Ultra Instinct Goku because he literally lost it before he even threw a punch.

Well, maybe he didn't technically do better than UI Omen Goku, but he still did way better than what his character should.

[TKA]

The discussion going on now is what happens when you don’t actually try to engage with the thing you’re reading and are only looking at power levels. The manga never even suggested that Kale was as strong as or stronger than Goku, Frieza and Vegeta. The best she could muster was almost landing a punch on Goku.

Things also aren’t being rushed. This is a story, not a simulation. Not everything will play out for you to see in glorious detail. The Gohan-Kafla thing is annoying though because in ending on that cliffhanger, last chapter was promising to focus on it in this chapter, but that didn’t happen. That will create narrative dissonance when you read these as part of a volume.

At least he showed the beginning and end of it, which are the most interesting parts.

[wolflonnie]

I'll just say. I like the idea of technique > power, BUT only if you can perceive your opponent.
If you can't, there is no technique that can save your ass.
During the U6 saga, Roshi wasn't able to see Frost and FREAKING base Goku. Now, all of a sudden, he can react to Jiren, who should be MUCH faster. It's inconsistent even WITHIN Toyo's own work!!!
There's no logical explanation to a being reacting to something he can't perceive at all. There just isn't.