"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Noah]

This such a shame because I never expected Toyotaro to produce a chapter that ignores what was written in the past by Toriyama and completely fails to represent its characters.

Pardon, but do you really this is all on Toyotaro and Toriyama has zero influence on it? Cuz I don't believe on that, then Toriyama has failed as much as him.

Champa's goodbye was awful. Completely overblown on his part and Beerus' reaction I would say is out of character.

Why? Sure the chapter was terrible, but this scene was okay, I guess.

Firstly, "Heart of the Cards" is some made-up 4Kids bullshit that has no bearing in the actual original story Kazuki Takahashi created. In his story, they're just cardboard. Secondly, spirituality has always been a part of Dragon Ball. Thirdly, this is Toyotaro's manga, not Toriyama's.

Not at all. In the original Japanese version, the concept of "Heart of the Cards" is touched on in the first episode, but largely not referred to since. However, it is frequently said that since you put all of your feelings into building your Deck, it can be relied on to help you win.

And this manga is drawn by Toyotaro from Toriyama outlines, is not like is 100% his ideas on it.

I just don’t understand how people think Kame-Sennin dodging Jiren means he got some crazy power up. I didn’t know dodging required great strength lol

Yes it does. In the original work a great increase in power also meant a big increase on speed, if Jiren is stronger than time itself I don't see how Roshi could dodge any of is punches.

I really cannot praise the Master Roshi bit enough, like it felt like I was reading Dragon Ball again. It really saved the chapter and is gonna be a memorable moment for the series for sure.

That cracked me up more than the GIF you're using as avatar

[Marlowe89]

It doesn't require strength, but it most definitely requires speed and agility far out of the realm of Roshi when dodging against someone of Jiren's level.

Yeah it’s definitely easy to dodge something moving at speeds you can’t physically react to.

I'm gonna stop you both right there.

This, again, is an issue of people fundamentally missing the entire purpose of Ultra Instinct, its role in the story, why it was introduced, and how it works.

Whis clearly specified that a person's movement speed is hindered by their brain-processing signals, and training the body to move on its own overcomes that limitation. Those signals = reaction times. Without those signals, conscious perception wouldn't exist. Therefore, Ultra Instinct bypasses reaction times. As bizarre as that might sound to some folks, that's the main idea behind UI's whole concept. It's literally an auto-dodge mechanic in every possible sense of the word; that's also why Whis specifically said it could evade any threat. Roshi developed a half-baked pseudo equivalent, so the same principle applies for however long he can keep it up.

What does that tell you?

Jiren could be a quintillion times stronger, faster, godlier, sexier, cooler AND more chad than Roshi and it's not going to count for shit if Roshi has the DB equivalent of holding down the square button in Final Fantasy XV. Which he does, because that's what Ultra Instinct is. Because that's what the material says it is. Because that's what the goddamn writers tried to convey to you people in the movies, the anime, and the manga: ALL THREE formats. Imagine that!

So please, please spare me all this tripe about power scaling when the whole technique was designed to throw it out from the very beginning while it's in use (unless both parties are using it, I guess). Power scaling is obviously important, but it's not going to apply to every single situation in the story, nor does Toyotaro want it to. Nor does Toriyama want it to. Nor do I want it to. As long as there are explanations for the outliers, I'm fine with it, and guess what? There were explanations for the outliers.

[Kokonoe]

I really cannot praise the Master Roshi bit enough, like it felt like I was reading Dragon Ball again. It really saved the chapter and is gonna be a memorable moment for the series for sure.

That cracked me up more than the GIF you're using as avatar

What time is it? Oh, it's time to change the baby's diaper! Please bend over and mommy will make you feel better.

[Meshack]

Did anyone else notice that 18 wasn't seen many times on the stands in this chapter? (for example when Gohan got eliminated she wasn't seen anywhere) Did Toyotaro forget to draw her?

She’s in the chapter

[Meshack]

This such a shame because I never expected Toyotaro to produce a chapter that ignores what was written in the past by Toriyama and completely fails to represent its characters.

Pardon, but do you really this is all on Toyotaro and Toriyama has zero influence on it? Cuz I don't believe on that, then Toriyama has failed as much as him.

Champa's goodbye was awful. Completely overblown on his part and Beerus' reaction I would say is out of character.

Why? Sure the chapter was terrible, but this scene was okay, I guess.

Firstly, "Heart of the Cards" is some made-up 4Kids bullshit that has no bearing in the actual original story Kazuki Takahashi created. In his story, they're just cardboard. Secondly, spirituality has always been a part of Dragon Ball. Thirdly, this is Toyotaro's manga, not Toriyama's.

Not at all. In the original Japanese version, the concept of "Heart of the Cards" is touched on in the first episode, but largely not referred to since. However, it is frequently said that since you put all of your feelings into building your Deck, it can be relied on to help you win.

And this manga is drawn by Toyotaro from Toriyama outlines, is not like is 100% his ideas on it.

I just don’t understand how people think Kame-Sennin dodging Jiren means he got some crazy power up. I didn’t know dodging required great strength lol

Yes it does. In the original work a great increase in power also meant a big increase on speed, if Jiren is stronger than time itself I don't see how Roshi could dodge any of is punches.

I really cannot praise the Master Roshi bit enough, like it felt like I was reading Dragon Ball again. It really saved the chapter and is gonna be a memorable moment for the series for sure.

That cracked me up more than the GIF you're using as avatar

You’re acting like Jiren is actually trying in this tournament as of Chapter 39. He’s been tanking attacks by Gokou and easily eliminated Hit. Gokou even said he was holding back against Hit. He’s not gonna try against Kame-Sennin. It’s like you people aren’t reading the chapters

[DestructoDisc]

Did anyone else notice that 18 wasn't seen many times on the stands in this chapter? (for example when Gohan got eliminated she wasn't seen anywhere) Did Toyotaro forget to draw her?

She’s in the chapter

I know she was in this chapter. I said she was missing in many shots, like when Gohan was eliminated.

[emperior]

I really cannot praise the Master Roshi bit enough, like it felt like I was reading Dragon Ball again. It really saved the chapter and is gonna be a memorable moment for the series for sure.

Can you tell me which version of Dragon Ball manga features the same Roshi who appeared in this chapter?

The one you didn't read~

The one no one apart from you read, then. Because in the original manga, Roshi’s training was all about honing physical capabilities, and he told Goku and Krillin he had nothing more to teach them after the training.
It’s the same man who took 3 years to get some water from Korin, after all. And he was trying dirty tricks to take it, so he wasn’t exactly a genius. He also never received training from Popo and Kami and so he never learned how to fight with his eyes closed. He also admitted Goku had already surpassed him during Baba’s tournament and in the 22nd Budokai he retired for good after witnessing how the next generation was full of fighters much better and capable than he was.

For some reason, though, in the latest Super’s chapter it turns out he is much better than Krillin and Tenshinan are and he is also smarter than Goku when it comes to fights

[Noah]

Jiren could be a quintillion times stronger, faster, godlier, sexier, cooler AND more chad than Roshi and it's not going to count for shit if Roshi has the DB equivalent of holding down the square button in Final Fantasy XV. Which he does, because that's what Ultra Instinct is. Because that's what the material says it is. Because that's what the goddamn writers tried to convey to you people in the movies, the anime, and the manga: ALL THREE formats. Imagine that!

This is just your headcanon. Nothing in both medias says that no matter the gap between the fighter and his enemy, Ultra Instinct would assist just fine. Goku got a few hits from Jiren even when he mastered the technique.

You’re acting like Jiren is actually trying in this tournament as of Chapter 39. He’s been tanking attacks by Gokou and easily eliminated Hit. Gokou even said he was holding back against Hit. He’s not gonna try against Kame-Sennin. It’s like you people aren’t reading the chapters

Well he should, wasn't one of the major complaints of this arc on the anime that Jiren only lost because he wasted time toying with everyone? So people could expect better on this manga, more convincing ways to present how they hold a titan like him for so long, but no it's the same game again.

[Miracles]

People are acting like Roshi himself taught Ultra Instinct to Goku. Can't people receive advice, specially in a extreme situation like this?
If your teacher gives you advice on how to study after you passed his grade do you tell him to piss off because "he shouldn't be able to teach you anything"?

Roshi tells Goku to recall 20 plus years of training to try and find an solution to the problem he has been trying to answer ever since he found out about Jiren; no probably since he's been training under Whis. He's giving perspective for Goku to find answer that only he can uncover because of all his experience.

Likewise for Goku when pushed to the edge goes for an answer that under normal circumstances he wouldn't give. Have you even been in a tight spot and did something stupid or the only thing you could think off? Is Goku supposed not be human and make no mistakes?
Freaking Cell dissed Trunks for increasing his power while losing speed and did the same thing when Gohan was kicking his ass!

Characters aren't perfect beings they are supposed to be flawed. Had Goku come up to Jiren at the start and said power was his solution I would be all over Toyotarõ. But after fighting Jiren for a while and going nowhere, we see in the previous panel before powering up Goku hurt and sweating realizing this was his limit. There's a situation people have to recognize.

You're missing the point. No ones bagging on GOku for needing advice, it's because that in order for Goku to require this specific advice, Toyo had to retroactively regress Goku's character and force him to forget all the lessons he's learned when he wouldn't be such a good fighter if he hadn't learned these lessons. It makes Goku look like an inexperienced clown who thought swelling his raw power was a good idea on it's own. It's a textbook example of doing away with traits of another character, making them look stupid for the sake of making a different character look good. Especially when it's Roshi teaching Goku things that Goku himself has already taught others.

Actually not. Goku has been focused on his physical power. He has not been focused on the spirit aspect, except locating Ki.
This wasn't a character regression for Goku but a reminder how he hasn't fully remembered his training.

[Meshack]

Did anyone else notice that 18 wasn't seen many times on the stands in this chapter? (for example when Gohan got eliminated she wasn't seen anywhere) Did Toyotaro forget to draw her?

She’s in the chapter

I know she was in this chapter. I said she was missing in many shots, like when Gohan was eliminated.

Gokou is also missing in some parts of the chapter... who cares

[emperior]

It doesn't require strength, but it most definitely requires speed and agility far out of the realm of Roshi when dodging against someone of Jiren's level.

Yeah it’s definitely easy to dodge something moving at speeds you can’t physically react to.

I'm gonna stop you both right there.

This, again, is an issue of people fundamentally missing the entire purpose of Ultra Instinct, its role in the story, why it was introduced, and how it works.

Whis clearly specified that a person's movement speed is hindered by their brain-processing signals, and training the body to move on its own overcomes that limitation. Those signals = reaction times. Without those signals, conscious perception wouldn't exist. Therefore, Ultra Instinct bypasses reaction times. As bizarre as that might sound to some folks, that's the main idea behind UI's whole concept. It's literally an auto-dodge mechanic in every possible sense of the word; that's also why Whis specifically said it could evade any threat. Roshi developed a half-baked pseudo equivalent, so the same principle applies for however long he can keep it up.

What does that tell you?

Jiren could be a quintillion times stronger, faster, godlier, sexier, cooler AND more chad than Roshi and it's not going to count for shit if Roshi has the DB equivalent of holding down the square button in Final Fantasy XV. Which he does, because that's what Ultra Instinct is. Because that's what the material says it is. Because that's what the goddamn writers tried to convey to you people in the movies, the anime, and the manga: ALL THREE formats. Imagine that!

So please, please spare me all this tripe about power scaling when the whole technique was designed to throw it out from the very beginning while it's in use (unless both parties are using it, I guess). Power scaling is obviously important, but it's not going to apply to every single situation in the story, nor does Toyotaro want it to. Nor does Toriyama want it to. Nor do I want it to. As long as there are explanations for the outliers, I'm fine with it, and guess what? There were explanations for the outliers.

Ultra Instinct is not an auto dodge mechanic in the anime or else Jiren wouldn’t have been able to touch Goku.
Roshi doesn’t have Ultra Instinct in the manga, which means he doesn’t have the 0 seconds reaction time UI has, which means it makes no sense for him to be able to dodge a single attack from Jiren.
Also, please stop with this condescending attitude already.

[Meshack]

Jiren could be a quintillion times stronger, faster, godlier, sexier, cooler AND more chad than Roshi and it's not going to count for shit if Roshi has the DB equivalent of holding down the square button in Final Fantasy XV. Which he does, because that's what Ultra Instinct is. Because that's what the material says it is. Because that's what the goddamn writers tried to convey to you people in the movies, the anime, and the manga: ALL THREE formats. Imagine that!

This is just your headcanon. Nothing in both medias says that no matter the gap between the fighter and his enemy, Ultra Instinct would assist just fine. Goku got a few hits from Jiren even when he mastered the technique.

You’re acting like Jiren is actually trying in this tournament as of Chapter 39. He’s been tanking attacks by Gokou and easily eliminated Hit. Gokou even said he was holding back against Hit. He’s not gonna try against Kame-Sennin. It’s like you people aren’t reading the chapters

Well he should, wasn't one of the major complaints of this arc on the anime that Jiren only lost because he wasted time toying with everyone? So people could expect better on this manga, more convincing ways to present how they hold a titan like him for so long, but no it's the same game again.

Just because there’s a complaint in the community doesn’t mean it’s justified. There was a complaint Trunks wasn’t chosen or Paikuhan... Jiren had all the power in the world so he didn’t need to GO ALL OUT against some weakling (in his eyes). He did eliminate him though unlike Jiren in the animated version not eliminating Kale. Jiren eliminated all those that opposed him: Hit and Kame-Sennin. He tried eliminating Gokou but he keeps getting saved

[Meshack]

It doesn't require strength, but it most definitely requires speed and agility far out of the realm of Roshi when dodging against someone of Jiren's level.

Yeah it’s definitely easy to dodge something moving at speeds you can’t physically react to.

I'm gonna stop you both right there.

This, again, is an issue of people fundamentally missing the entire purpose of Ultra Instinct, its role in the story, why it was introduced, and how it works.

Whis clearly specified that a person's movement speed is hindered by their brain-processing signals, and training the body to move on its own overcomes that limitation. Those signals = reaction times. Without those signals, conscious perception wouldn't exist. Therefore, Ultra Instinct bypasses reaction times. As bizarre as that might sound to some folks, that's the main idea behind UI's whole concept. It's literally an auto-dodge mechanic in every possible sense of the word; that's also why Whis specifically said it could evade any threat. Roshi developed a half-baked pseudo equivalent, so the same principle applies for however long he can keep it up.

What does that tell you?

Jiren could be a quintillion times stronger, faster, godlier, sexier, cooler AND more chad than Roshi and it's not going to count for shit if Roshi has the DB equivalent of holding down the square button in Final Fantasy XV. Which he does, because that's what Ultra Instinct is. Because that's what the material says it is. Because that's what the goddamn writers tried to convey to you people in the movies, the anime, and the manga: ALL THREE formats. Imagine that!

So please, please spare me all this tripe about power scaling when the whole technique was designed to throw it out from the very beginning while it's in use (unless both parties are using it, I guess). Power scaling is obviously important, but it's not going to apply to every single situation in the story, nor does Toyotaro want it to. Nor does Toriyama want it to. Nor do I want it to. As long as there are explanations for the outliers, I'm fine with it, and guess what? There were explanations for the outliers.

Ultra Instinct is not an auto dodge mechanic in the anime or else Jiren wouldn’t have been able to touch Goku.
Roshi doesn’t have Ultra Instinct in the manga, which means he doesn’t have the 0 seconds reaction time UI has, which means it makes no sense for him to be able to dodge a single attack from Jiren.
Also, please stop with this condescending attitude already.

JIREN IS NOT GOING ALL OUT. He hasn’t been since the beginning of the tournament as of Chapter 39

[DestructoDisc]

She’s in the chapter

I know she was in this chapter. I said she was missing in many shots, like when Gohan was eliminated.

Gokou is also missing in some parts of the chapter... who cares

Yeah who cares about consistency?

[VegettoEX]

I really cannot praise the Master Roshi bit enough, like it felt like I was reading Dragon Ball again. It really saved the chapter and is gonna be a memorable moment for the series for sure.

That cracked me up more than the GIF you're using as avatar

What time is it? Oh, it's time to change the baby's diaper! Please bend over and mommy will make you feel better.

These kinds of comments serve no purpose.

Yeah who cares about consistency?

This is not a worthwhile contribution.

Gokou is also missing in some parts of the chapter... who cares

This is not a worthwhile contribution.

Account strikes have been issued several times over in this thread since its re-opening earlier today. All would do well to review the community guidelines, which you agreed to (twice) prior to registration.

Account strikes add up to temporary/permanent bans, which revoke access to the entirety of the Kanzenshuu website. It would be a shame if you could not continue your discussions here.

[lord turbo]

Actually, the concept of power levels wasn't even introduced until DBZ because of scouters. Then guidebooks went back and told us the power levels of characters during Dragon Ball.

Power levels as in tiers/ranks/classes, not power levels as in numbers.

The original Dragon Ball was about martial arts. Goku did in fact learn things from Korin before his fight with Tao Pai Pai

Original DB was about power levels as well. The things Goku learned from Korin served to power him up greatly where he goes from getting his ass aeverely to handed to him by Tao to him severely handing Tao's ass to him.

This involved catching Korin and this helped him minimize unnecessary movements. It wasn't just climbing the tower and getting stronger.

Except it was just that, Toriyama's poor writing doesn't change that as Goku continues to fight the same with wasted movements when he meets Mr. Popo and apparently stays the same for Whis to repeat the same flaws. I Guess Goku simply doesn't understand what he's told or shown or just doesn't listen.

Goku and Vegeta have reached their saturation points for zenkai. They aren't going to break their limits now just by raising their power level.

Yet, that is what they do anyway, what do you think Vegeta went back in the time chamber for against SSR Black?

They do need to focus on technique. In DBZ, it made sense that the series focused on Goku going through the Super Saiyan levels because he needed to close the power gap between him and his opponents, otherwise regardless of his technique, he wouldn't be able to do any damage.

That was a theme since Goku and Kruririn needed to train/power up for the 21st Budokai, Red Ribbon arc, 22nd Budokai, Demon King Piccolo, and 23rd Budokai sagas.

However, now, it is backwards. He does need to revisit some fundamentals. It happens to real martial artists in real life including MMA fighters who win several competitions and they train their body a lot, only to lose later on.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

If you want DB to continue down the path of just higher power level means you win the fight, then that's going to be a boring show. Toriyama never wanted this.

That's what Dragon Ball does so I don't quite get what you are trying to say here.

[Marlowe89]

This is just your headcanon.

This is not my headcanon. Everything I just mentioned - from Whis discussing how brain signals inhibit speed to Whis explicitly stating that UI can take on any foe - was stated word-for-word in the story.

If Jiren can hit a mastered Ultra Instinct Goku with no explanation, that's a Toei problem for not adhering to Whis' description.

Roshi doesn’t have Ultra Instinct in the manga, which means he doesn’t have the 0 seconds reaction time UI has, which means it makes no sense for him to be able to dodge a single attack from Jiren.

Roshi has an imperfect pseudo UI in everything but name, as confirmed by Whis, who said it operates on similar principles. Therefore, he can briefly dodge attacks from Jiren as if using the real thing.

This isn't complicated.

Also, please stop with this condescending attitude already.

That was an attempt to be informative and a bit colorful, not condescending. Sarcastic remarks like this are condescending.

Stick to the argument and quit policing my tone, man.

[StrikerXL]

It doesn't require strength, but it most definitely requires speed and agility far out of the realm of Roshi when dodging against someone of Jiren's level.

Yeah it’s definitely easy to dodge something moving at speeds you can’t physically react to.

I'm gonna stop you both right there.

This, again, is an issue of people fundamentally missing the entire purpose of Ultra Instinct, its role in the story, why it was introduced, and how it works.

Whis clearly specified that a person's movement speed is hindered by their brain-processing signals, and training the body to move on its own overcomes that limitation. Those signals = reaction times. Without those signals, conscious perception wouldn't exist. Therefore, Ultra Instinct bypasses reaction times. As bizarre as that might sound to some folks, that's the main idea behind UI's whole concept. It's literally an auto-dodge mechanic in every possible sense of the word; that's also why Whis specifically said it could evade any threat. Roshi developed a half-baked pseudo equivalent, so the same principle applies for however long he can keep it up.

What does that tell you?

Jiren could be a quintillion times stronger, faster, godlier, sexier, cooler AND more chad than Roshi and it's not going to count for shit if Roshi has the DB equivalent of holding down the square button in Final Fantasy XV. Which he does, because that's what Ultra Instinct is. Because that's what the material says it is. Because that's what the goddamn writers tried to convey to you people in the movies, the anime, and the manga: ALL THREE formats. Imagine that!

So please, please spare me all this tripe about power scaling when the whole technique was designed to throw it out from the very beginning while it's in use (unless both parties are using it, I guess). Power scaling is obviously important, but it's not going to apply to every single situation in the story, nor does Toyotaro want it to. Nor does Toriyama want it to. Nor do I want it to. As long as there are explanations for the outliers, I'm fine with it, and guess what? There were explanations for the outliers.

I completely agree with you on this!
It’s all explained plentiful in all available formats.
People seem not to understand what UI actually does.
Muten Roshi also never reached the real UI state.
It’s just an extension of his experience and fighting style.
This triggered Goku to use / learn the technique like he did since the beginning of Dragon Ball series by Toriyama.
Goku was not able to master it yet during this fight with Jiren, but like always he’s at his best when all else fails.

[PFM18]

Gohan had the bang before Ulimate. In the Battle of Gods movie and saga, Ultimate Gohan had no bang.

In the Buu arc he had a couple strands of hair that was kind of a bang, but upon being Ultimate it was the only bang and became more pronounced. It was really the only distinguishing feature that he had.

Also, I don't recall that in the movie and arc. But he was Ultimate with the bang in the manga which makes this that much more inconsistent that he doesn't have it now

Pre-Ultimate eyes & hair:


Post-Ultimate eyes and hair:


The strand is lost later on but that's probs just an esthetic change, Gohan's hair in various forms changes as the arc goes on. The eyes, however, are clearly meant as the de facto visual change to show us he's Ultimate. The fact EoZ Gohan keeps the same eyes but bangless hair adds further credence to this. The anime just fucks up by giving normal Gohan SS eyes when he has no business having them without Ultimate.

Yeah fair enough. I guess I didn't realize it was as pronounced of a difference in the eyes prior to this. But aren't those eyes often just indication of a character fighting seriously? Like the larger eyes are a result of the character being more relaxed?

[JazzMazz]

I think people more than understand what UI is, it’s just that Roshi shouldn’t have even a bootleg version of UI. That’s more the problem I have.