Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

What are everyone's thoughts on Seth's "Gogeta vs Broly video" ? He argues that Broly would slap Gogeta. Is that true?

He has some serious problems believing that old broly beats super gogeta.

On the chance that gogeta blue shows up against broly, its totally fine if gogeta beats a hakaishin and above level
Foe, do to how much more powerful that goku and vegeta must be than their two sagas ago self.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

- In her Super Saiyan form, Caulifla does not demonstrate any feats that put her above Super Saiyan Cabba. If she is stronger than Cabba, the amount is so negligible as to be visually indistinguishable. (Ch. 37, Pgs. 3-33

Not really....
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Cabba is pretty beaten up when he and Caulifla fight. Caulifla seems to be notably stronger than Cabba, and the same should apply to their SSJs forms.

Other than that, great job at collecting the evidence for this.

[Bullza]

Well, exactly. that is how we know for 100% certainty that he must have retained the power-up he gained from being a SSG.

It might not be a result of that Super Saiyan God power up though. Prior to becoming a Super Saiyan God the other Saiyans gave Goku their power and powered him up an extent that Gohan described him as being the strongest he had ever been.

At that point he'd surpassed the Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta so the result of Vegeta's six months of training could have got him back up to that level.

If Goku had the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan then naturally he'd be even stronger as a Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 right? So how does Super Saiyan God returning and being even stronger than that tie in?

Super Saiyan God > Super Saiyan 3 > Super Saiyan 2 > Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well, exactly. that is how we know for 100% certainty that he must have retained the power-up he gained from being a SSG.

It might not be a result of that Super Saiyan God power up though. Prior to becoming a Super Saiyan God the other Saiyans gave Goku their power and powered him up an extent that Gohan described him as being the strongest he had ever been.

At that point he'd surpassed the Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta so the result of Vegeta's six months of training could have got him back up to that level.

If Goku had the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan then naturally he'd be even stronger as a Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 right? So how does Super Saiyan God returning and being even stronger than that tie in?

Super Saiyan God > Super Saiyan 3 > Super Saiyan 2 > Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God?

That's why I never personally took to Goku retaining power specifically at the level of SSG, merely a major boost far beyond anything he could achieve on his own at the time.

[PFM18]

It might not be a result of that Super Saiyan God power up though. Prior to becoming a Super Saiyan God the other Saiyans gave Goku their power and powered him up an extent that Gohan described him as being the strongest he had ever been.

It wouldn't really make sense from an authorial intent perspective for this boost that Goku achieved to be a result of an extremely short, inconsequential scene that happened prior to becoming a SSG. Episodes 13 and 14 very thoroughly established that SSJ Goku>=SSG Goku, and this was a narrative point that was given a lot of attention. For it to suddenly be invalidated in favor of an extremely brief scene that essentially meant nothing, wouldn't make any sense.

From an In-Universe perspective, taking the wording that was used that Goku made that power "his own" and "made it part of his very being" wouldn't make any sense for it to just be temporary and be gone if this is a matter of this being infused within himself. It certainly wouldn't make sense for this ki transfer scene where he got the pseudo SSG, to be the plot point in which Goku gained a boost equivalent to Vegeta's that made his ki completely unrecognizable from what it was on Earth. Vegeta's ki was unrecognizable from what it was on Earth, because he was strong enough such that his SSJ surpasses SSG.

If Goku had the power of a Super Saiyan God as a Super Saiyan then naturally he'd be even stronger as a Super Saiyan 2 and Super Saiyan 3 right? So how does Super Saiyan God returning and being even stronger than that tie in?

Super Saiyan God > Super Saiyan 3 > Super Saiyan 2 > Super Saiyan = Super Saiyan God?

See this power chain and your explanation implies that this "power of SSG" is a moving target in such a way that his SSJ is always equal to SSG and that this form is rendered irrelevant and it doesn't make sense that it would appear again. However, this is simply not what happened.

Goku literally just retained that level of power from when he was a SSG, it isn't any more complicated than that. It didn't become his new SSG form that is equivalent, he simply became as strong as he was at that particular point in time as a SSG, in his SSJ form. He experienced a level of speed and strength and he simply managed to not lose that level of power upon the form itself dissipating. The form expired, and he no longer God Ki, but he had the same power, hence he "absorbed" the power not the form itself. It isn't as though Goku's SSJ is always the same as SSG and this is suddenly an identical form that takes on another look, it is just a matter of that power, hence the "made the power his own." The Super Saiyan God is completely independent of all of this and he can become SSG by using God Ki and gain a power boost from it, this scene does not in any way restrict him from using SSG again, because he can use God Ki at any time given he knows SSB. It certainly appears that this iteration of the form itself does not yield the same boost that Goku achieved during BoG, presumably because either the ritual iteration of the form is stronger, or because he already infused that power in himself so he cannot gain the same boost.

[AvatarReiko]

How much power was Cell using against USSJ Trunks and MSSJ Goku respectively?

Cell had previously admitted that USSJ Trunks had surpassed him power but lacked speed but we later learn that Goku at only 50% was stronger Trunks. Goku uses a full 100% against Cell but was still one step behind. Cell then powers up yet again to what he said was his max against Gohan. Is the implication here that Cell was lying to Trunks the whole time?

Would a hypothetical SSJ2 Vegeta during the Cell Games have been strong enough to beat normal Perfect Cell and Super Perfect Cell?

To determine the boost in power he would have received, would first need to know how much stronger Gohan was compared to him, right?

[Bullza]

So essentially you're saying that by Episode 13/14, Super Saiyan Goku was as strong as Super Saiyan God up to that point. His Super Saiyan then remained as strong as that by the time he went to Beerus' Planet.

This boost would also be why his Base form was far above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

And then the Super Saiyan God that appeared during the Universe Survival Saga was just a much stronger version than it was during the Battle of Gods saga?

So more akin to this?

Super Saiyan God (ToP) > Super Saiyan 3 (ToP) > Super Saiyan 2 (ToP) > Super Saiyan (Top) > Super Saiyan God (BoG)

[Marlowe89]

I don't recall anything in the show directly stating divine ki is more powerful than regular ki. The only difference officially noted is that divine ki can't be sensed and is felt as a kind of pressure. Presumably it's also calmer and more efficient, but that's speculative since we don't know if that's supposed to be a trait of the ki itself or of Super Saiyan Blue specifically; I'd presume the latter, since Toriyama didn't intend for Super Saiyan God/Red to be a tranquil transformation.

There's definitely no evidence that switching to divine ki alone automatically causes Goku and Vegeta to change into Super Saiyan Gods. Episode 20 and Episode 22 explicitly show them using it in their base forms without any alteration to their appearance, so there's obviously more to it than that.

Occam's razor would suggest that Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue are so strong simply because they're higher Super Saiyan forms. Divine ki is, as far as we know, a byproduct of those states, not the other way around.

[Noah]

What are everyone's thoughts on Seth's "Gogeta vs Broly video" ? He argues that Broly would slap Gogeta. Is that true?

He is probably basing himself on Budokai 3 and Tenkaichi 3 openings were Gogeta is show to struggle with Broly, which is inconceivable in anyway

[ekrolo2]

What are everyone's thoughts on Seth's "Gogeta vs Broly video" ? He argues that Broly would slap Gogeta. Is that true?

He is probably basing himself on Budokai 3 and Tenkaichi 3 openings were Gogeta is show to struggle with Broly, which is inconceivable in anyway

He's basing it off of Koyama's statements about Broly being the strongest movie villain which you can't take seriously.

[BlueBasilisk]

I don't think movie 8 Broly is as strong as Super Perfect Cell or Full Power Bojack, let alone someone like Gogeta. Movie 10 released just a few days after Fat Buu appeared in the manga so I imagine movie 10 Broly is still below him too.

I don't recall anything in the show directly stating divine ki is more powerful than regular ki. The only difference officially noted is that divine ki can't be sensed and is felt as a kind of pressure. Presumably it's also calmer and more efficient, but that's speculative since we don't know if that's supposed to be a trait of the ki itself or of Super Saiyan Blue specifically; I'd presume the latter, since Toriyama didn't intend for Super Saiyan God/Red to be a tranquil transformation.

There's definitely no evidence that switching to divine ki alone automatically causes Goku and Vegeta to change into Super Saiyan Gods. Episode 20 and Episode 22 explicitly show them using it in their base forms without any alteration to their appearance, so there's obviously more to it than that.

Occam's razor would suggest that Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue are so strong simply because they're higher Super Saiyan forms. Divine ki is, as far as we know, a byproduct of those states, not the other way around.

I think a lot of confusion over this is that we've never seen how Super Saiyan God is triggered without the ritual in either the anime or manga. Goku and Vegeta had that flash of Blue when they were sparring while using the divine ki. I suppose that's when they figured out how to do it.

[PFM18]

So essentially you're saying that by Episode 13/14, Super Saiyan Goku was as strong as Super Saiyan God up to that point. His Super Saiyan then remained as strong as that by the time he went to Beerus' Planet.

This boost would also be why his Base form was far above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

And then the Super Saiyan God that appeared during the Universe Survival Saga was just a much stronger version than it was during the Battle of Gods saga?

So more akin to this?

Super Saiyan God (ToP) > Super Saiyan 3 (ToP) > Super Saiyan 2 (ToP) > Super Saiyan (Top) > Super Saiyan God (BoG)

Yeah pretty much. That's exactly what I was trying to get across

[ekrolo2]

This isn't necessarily a strength question but how does 17 fly through Anilaza's attack?

[PFM18]

What are everyone's thoughts on Seth's "Gogeta vs Broly video" ? He argues that Broly would slap Gogeta. Is that true?

He is probably basing himself on Budokai 3 and Tenkaichi 3 openings were Gogeta is show to struggle with Broly, which is inconceivable in anyway

He's basing it off of Koyama's statements about Broly being the strongest movie villain which you can't take seriously.

And he is basing it on the "attack potency" of each character. Since Broly apparently destroyed a Galaxy and SSJ Gogeta doesn't have any feats they use SSJ3 Goku's "feat" of shaking the afterlife.

This "feat" business where you just take a couple of inconsequential scenes and ignore everything else is just ridiculous and Seth takes this to a whole other level. He literally talks about the elipse formula vs the sphere formula as though these are somehow relevant to Dragon Ball.

[ekrolo2]

He is probably basing himself on Budokai 3 and Tenkaichi 3 openings were Gogeta is show to struggle with Broly, which is inconceivable in anyway

He's basing it off of Koyama's statements about Broly being the strongest movie villain which you can't take seriously.

And he is basing it on the "attack potency" of each character. Since Broly apparently destroyed a Galaxy and SSJ Gogeta doesn't have any feats they use SSJ3 Goku's "feat" of shaking the afterlife.

This "feat" business where you just take a couple of inconsequential scenes and ignore everything else is just ridiculous and Seth takes this to a whole other level. He literally talks about the elipse formula vs the sphere formula as though these are somehow relevant to Dragon Ball.

If we go by feats everyone in GT is weaker than Daimao and BoG SSG Goku stomps everyone from Golden Freeza to GoD Toppo.

[PFM18]

He's basing it off of Koyama's statements about Broly being the strongest movie villain which you can't take seriously.

And he is basing it on the "attack potency" of each character. Since Broly apparently destroyed a Galaxy and SSJ Gogeta doesn't have any feats they use SSJ3 Goku's "feat" of shaking the afterlife.

This "feat" business where you just take a couple of inconsequential scenes and ignore everything else is just ridiculous and Seth takes this to a whole other level. He literally talks about the elipse formula vs the sphere formula as though these are somehow relevant to Dragon Ball.

If we go by feats everyone in GT is weaker than Daimao and BoG SSG Goku stomps everyone from Golden Freeza to GoD Toppo.

Pretty much. "feats" mean next to nothing

If you take them seriously you end up with conclusions like Broly>SSJ Gogeta

[Bullza]

Having finished rewatching the Resurrection F Saga and having asked a few questions. This is how I'd rank the characters up to this point.

Whis
Beerus

Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Goku
Super Saiyan God Goku

Goku | Vegeta | Frieza (Final Form)

Super Saiyan Goku (Ritual)
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan Gotenks

Good Buu
Frieza (First Form)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta (BoG)
Super Saiyan Gohan

Piccolo
Gotenks
Android 18

Captain Ginyu
Goku | Vegeta (BoG)
Gohan | Tagoma
Goten | Trunks

Krillin
Tien Shinhan
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Jaco

Yeah pretty much. That's exactly what I was trying to get across

Alright well I'm trying to rewatch the series, taking it in as it comes without thinking what happens next and there's nothing really wrong with how you view it. It's what I thought at one point too.

How would you explain Base Goku punching a part Beerus' attack that Super Saiyan Goku was struggling with though?

[PFM18]

Whis
Beerus

Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Vegeta
Super Saiyan Goku
Super Saiyan God Goku

Goku | Vegeta | Frieza (Final Form)

Super Saiyan Goku (Ritual)
Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Super Saiyan Gotenks

Good Buu
Frieza (First Form)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku
Super Saiyan Goku | Vegeta (BoG)
Super Saiyan Gohan

Piccolo
Gotenks
Android 18

Captain Ginyu
Goku | Vegeta (BoG)
Gohan | Tagoma
Goten | Trunks

Krillin
Tien Shinhan
Master Roshi (Max Power)
Jaco

Yeah that looks pretty good. But why do you have Piccolo above Gotenks?

Alright well I'm trying to rewatch the series, taking it in as it comes without thinking what happens next and there's nothing really wrong with how you view it. It's what I thought at one point too.

Yeah it makes a lot of sense. Honestly, I don't see any other way that really fits very well with the events that we see in the show. This way things work out quite nicely to the point where I don't really understand all of the complaints about the power scaling in DBS. Sure, it has it's problems but not much more problems if any more than DBZ did.

How would you explain Base Goku punching a part Beerus' attack that Super Saiyan Goku was struggling with though?

The phrasing mentioned breaking one's limits several times and so I just assumed it was a temporary "Limit Break" type power boost. Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense for RoF Base Goku<SSG Goku BoG to be implied when we know that Goku had been training with Whis for a while after the scene that you referenced.

[Lord Beerus]

Random question:

How strong would you consider Base Kale to be before and after the Tournament Of Power?

[Bullza]

Yeah that looks pretty good. But why do you have Piccolo above Gotenks?

I think it's just how it works out from the Power Level list I put together. Other that at least before the Rosat, Super Saiyan Gotenks was weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta supposedly so Base Gotenks would be less than twice as strong as Base Vegeta so should be below Piccolo.

I know he powered up after training but it was only a week and I would have no idea where else to put him.

This way things work out quite nicely to the point where I don't really understand all of the complaints about the power scaling in DBS. Sure, it has it's problems but not much more problems if any more than DBZ did.

It's when you start making comparisons to the other characters that it becomes a bit hard to swallow.

If Super Saiyan Goku is as strong or stronger than Super Saiyan God then it means Super Saiyan Goku would be stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito. Which would naturally mean Base Goku would be stronger than Base Vegito.

In Dragon Ball Z Kai which precedes Dragon Ball Super, Base Vegito was on par with Buuhan. So it'd mean someone like Base Cabba would probably be stronger than Buuhan.

Bergamo was on par with Base Goku so he should be stronger than Buuhan but then his brother Basil wasn't even as strong as Good Buu even powered up with the drug.