shadowfox87 wrote:Again, you're missing the point entirely. The point is that Roshi is over 300 years old and has only been practicing martial arts.
And yet Goku surpasses Roshi's master arts experience and knowledge in 1/50th that time.
shadowfox87 wrote:The manga went out of its way to remind you all of the direct quotes from Goku's masters about movement. The DB manga has always been about martial arts
It also goes out his way to show you Goku either mastering or exceeding said said martial arts skills.
shadowfox87 wrote:Movement is part of this. Regardless of how talented Goku may be in terms of fighting, he is not perfect.
And yet the story says he is numerous times. Toyotaro's writing is bad here for the simple fact he takes the same approach Toriyama takes, 1 step forward and two steps backwards regression to show progression.
shadowfox87 wrote:Since you want me to do your homework for you, I will. I've told you repeatedly that Goku beat Tao Pai Pai not just because of increased strength or speed, but because of movement that he learned from Korin.
You literally proved my point, Goku shrugged off all of Tao's attacks and proceeds to beat the crap out of him with superior speed and strength that's too much for Tao to handle, the end. None of that takes fighting skills when you're oppenent is inferior to you.
shadowfox87 wrote:Then you haven't read enough Chinese novels or watched enough wuxia. In all cases, the main character starts off talentless, learns some moves from their masters, then surpasses those masters and learns new things from new masters.
I read and seen enough from that genre, the difference is they are not as poorly written as Dragon Ball as far as coherence in the protaganists fighting prowess for the narrative is concerned. Again, Goku being flawed is one thing, the problem is regressing a character to a previous state to repeat lessons he already learned/mastered/improved on. That's not progression, that's going in a circles, the sign of incompetent writing.
shadowfox87 wrote:I too want a story that is internally consistent. However, no story is perfect and without flaws. The author will make mistakes. We use headcanon where we can to explain some mistakes.
I didn't say anything about wanting a perfect or flawless story, I'm saying don't go in circles for fake progression due to lacking creativity, be internally coherent with the narrative, not nonsensical just because you hit writer's block.
shadowfox87 wrote:So even after you're given the official power levels stating they are equal, you refuse to believe it because you want to believe that the person with the higher power level always wins and that technique is not important.
I don't take secondary sources that contradict the primary source material.
shadowfox87 wrote:So here, I did the homework again for you, Chapter 132, Goku vs Tenshinhan. Tenshinhan uses 4 arms against Goku and Goku in response moves his arms fast as if they were 8 arms.
Wow, just wow, you post examples of Goku moving twice as fast as Tenshinhan and walking the dog all over him as an example of equal power level?
shadowfox87 wrote:Tenshinhan is surprised and commends Goku that he is a remarkable boy. He goes on to say that when he goes head-to-head versus Goku, he's always at a disadvantage. Gee I wonder why? You're going to say that it's because Goku is superior in 'power level'. I'm going to say it is because of better technique. Tenshinhan however not once stated that Goku is superior in power.
Read between the lines, Goku is shown faster and stronger than Tien who gets shutdown at every turn, anything Tien does Goku does simply better.
shadowfox87 wrote:Then Tenshinhan plans to use the Kihoho, which has enough destructive power to kill Goku and destroy the ring. He doesn't want to kill Goku though and tells him to dodge. By dodging it, Goku would get ring out. None of this implies that Tenshinhan is weaker than Goku, but that he's trying another strategy.
Tien uses the Kikoho because he's all out options, he lacks the speed, strength, and fighting skills to compete with Goku or force him out so he has to rely on a pure power move for.a ring out.
shadowfox87 wrote:Could he have faced Goku head-on? Maybe.
Doing your homework for you, no, by Tien's own admission he opted not to take Goku head-on as he was too much for him.
shadowfox87 wrote:But if there's a better strategy that can secure him the win, then why not use it? If this was a real fight with no ring, Tenshinhan already has enough destructive power to kill Goku.
Because he's desperate to win, using a move that generates a higher power level defeats your argument of "fighting skills totally matter many".
shadowfox87 wrote:Even with Tenshinhan depleted of his energy after using the Kihoho, he can still deflect and/or absorb Goku's Super Kamehameha in the air. Goku has no choice but to fire the Kamehameha backwards to propel himself and hit Tenshinhan. If this is not strategy, I'm not sure what it is. If you think that this entire fight was just some brawl without any technique, you are definitely not watching the same show I am.
All I saw was Goku use his Kamehameha to propel himself (a simple and basic move Roshi and Goku have used before) at a level of speed and strength too much for Tien to handle as he knocks him clean out with a headbutt.
shadowfox87 wrote:We're back to you believing that technique doesn't matter and that people just punch the crap out of each other in Dragon Ball.
No, I just don't believe in your rose tinted/revisionist version of DB.
shadowfox87 wrote:Power gaps in Dragon Ball were much smaller than they were in DBZ. Kami had a power level of 220 as per the Weekly Shonen Jump, the magazine in which the Dragon Ball manga was published (Source:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/battle-power/list/).
I couldn't careless about flawed secondary sources that contradict the manga.
shadowfox87 wrote:This was an old Kami. King Piccolo with his youth restored had a battle power of 260, higher than Kami. You thought that '260' referred to old Piccolo. This is incorrect.
So this is what talking to a brick wall feels like... yeah, no, Kami is far stronger than young Demon King Piccolo, old Piccolo utterly wrecked Goku with less than half his battle power and the Goku that killed Demon Piccolo was called utter weak thrash in comparison to Mr. Popo who stated Kami is way stronger than him.
This should be clear when Kami finger flick Goku's full force punch like he wad a mere fly with ease. Those pl make zero sense when you realize Tien matched weighted clothing Goku during the 23rd Budokai that was stated far stronger than he was against demon Piccolo (260), yet Tien is weaker at 250 at the beginning of Z? So much for lolworthy power levels that heavily contradict the source material.
shadowfox87 wrote:Goku beat Piccolo by doing exactly what you just said. He used the Kamehameha to propel him and used all the ki in his fists to punch a hole through Piccolo. This again, is not because Goku had a higher battle power than King Piccolo.
It is, a heavily wounded Goku in a direct clash of might against Demon Piccolo completely broke through his defenses and punched a giant gaping hole through him as if he was made out of toilet tissue. The same kind of power he used to demon Piccolo had zero effect on the much stronger Mr. Popo and Kami.
shadowfox87 wrote:It's the same way as if someone got hit by a Kienzan from a fighter that is weaker. A Kienzan has the ki concentrated into a sharp point so that it can cut.
Not the same, the kienzan ignores power level differences, Goku merely concentrated all his remaining power into his fist to oneshot demon Piccolo.
shadowfox87 wrote:I'll say it again. The power gap in Dragon Ball is much smaller than in DBZ and that is a fact.
Again, you can say it as much as you want, you would still be dead wrong as that's not the point, huge gaps in power as in one-shotting the weaker character still existed in DB.
shadowfox87 wrote:It's a fact because you prove it mathematically. Even though I said DB, you go on to mention opponents in DBZ...?? Everyone in DB had a battle power of less than 1000. The gap therefore, is not "huge". A gap between Freeza (120 million) and Goku initially (3 million) is a lot more than any gap in DB. The gap between Goku (90,000) and Ginyu (120k) is nothing. Raditz, Nappa, Dodoria, Zarbon, all of them not a huge gap. I'm talking about HUGE gaps where Goku had to use power to overcome his foes like turning into a Super Saiyan.
Oh really now? You make this way to easy, its clear you have zero idea what gaps/difference means between characters are you are terribly off the mark. Since you like to like to use numbers so much lets do some basic observation.
Raditz with a pl slightly over a Saibaimen (1200) vs angry Gohan's headbutt (1307) and Piccolo's attack (1330). That is a gap of 8.916% and 10.83% which is enough to 1-2 shot Raditz. Saibaimen (1200) vs Tien (1830), a 52.5% gap in power, Tien wins with a single elbow.
Piccolo (3.5k) vs Nappa (4k), a 14.285% gap in power. Nappa literally oneshots Piccolo with a single elbow. Gihan at 981 can't see the movements of a saibaimen at 1.2k fighting Yamcha with his eyes, that's a gap of 22.324%, Vegeta (playing around at 18k) is shown and stated too much for Kaioken Goku (16k), that's a gap of 12.5%, Vegeta (24k) effortlessly toys with and oneshots Kiwi (18k) I'm a single blow, a gap of 33.333%.
Vegeta (24k) is too fast and strong for Dodoria (22k) to handle and oneshot kills him in a single blow, that's a gap of 9%, Vegeta (24k) vs Zarbon (23k) ends up with Zarbon getting utterly humilated by Vegeta, a gap of 4.347%. Monster Zarbon (under 30k) beats the crap out of Vegeta (24k), a gap less than 25%.
Gohan and Kuririn at 1.5k oneshot Freeza's men that laugh off pl at 1k, a gap of 50%, Vegeta (30k) vs Recoome (under 60k per Ginyu's estimate), a gap less than 100%, Goku (90k) easily toys with Jeice, Burter (two-shots), and Recoome (one-shots) who are under 60k, that's a gap over 50%.
Ginyu (120k) vs Goku (90k), Ginyu can break Goku in half once he has his hands around him, a gap of 33.333% (equal to the gap between Vegeta's 24k vs Kiwi's 18k), Goku's Kaioken (180k) vs Ginyu's (120k), gap 33.333%, Freeza (120 million) vs SSJ Goku (150 million), gap of 25%.
Now, lets compare these to the gaps in original DB.
Tien (180) vs Roshi (139), a gap of 29.496%, Goku (180) vs. Old Piccolo (under 260 even though he's over twice Goku's level in the source material), a gap less than 44.444%, Goku (260) vs Drum (above Tien at 180) equals Drum oneshot killed with a gap less than 44.444% between them.
Weighted clothing Goku (far above 260) vs Chichi (130) during 23rd Budokai, she's oneshotted with a gap way over 2-fold between them.Roshi (139) vs Crane (120), a gap of 15.833%, cyborg Tao (210) vs Ten (less than 260) equals Tao utterly oneshotted with gap of less than 23.8%
As you can see most of the gaps in original DB are higher than most the gaps in Z.
shadowfox87 wrote:Technique is useless if you don't have sufficient power and speed. Of course. I never said it isn't. The whole point of DBZ was for Goku to overcome power gaps to beat Freeza, Cell, and Buu because he needed power. That isn't the point here.
No, your poor and lack of argument was that power gaps that made fighting skills worthless didn't exist in DB (which they do).
shadowfox87 wrote:The point is, that technique is also a VERY important factor in a fight.
Only when fighters are close in level (which is what I've been stating repeatedly the whole time that you constantly ignore).
shadowfox87 wrote:You and I have made a bet. I bet that he will not surpass Jiren in power in this fight. Whis himself said that the wall that Goku must break is not power. The only way for him to surpass his limits now is through UI or mastery of self-movement and this will NOT be worthless even if Goku has less power and speed than Jiren.
Not quite, if you are game I bet you $100.00 Goku will simply become faster and stronger when he uses UI against Jiren while you say that UI will not give a boost.
shadowfox87 wrote:This is anticipation and predicting movements. The entire premise of this show is not power and speed.
You do realize Jiren was holding back and simply raised his power level to easily oneshot "not UI" Roshi right.
shadowfox87 wrote:If it is, I'm not even sure why you even watch this show given that you think that Toriyama is a terrible writer.
Don't put words I never said in my mouth, I said Toriyama is an incompetent writer when it comes to progression/growth which he constantly goes in circles with his characters which is true, not that he's a terrible writer in general, its called constructive criticism, perhaps you have heard of it?
shadowfox87 wrote:And again, that is the whole point of the story. Yes, he's been trying to do that since day 1, that is THE point!
Not trying to, already did.
shadowfox87 wrote:Goku is still evolving and just because he's been doing that since day 1, it doesn't mean he's reached the end.
Yes, Goku is evolving his power level as a fighter, he peaked as a martial artist with Mr. Popo and Kami, Toriyama fooling you with his circular progression doesn't change that.
shadowfox87 wrote:Again, he met opponents in DBZ where he had to overcome the power gap. He did so and continued to do so.
*sighs*
My issue with you is that this existed in DB as well, you are letting your nostalgia blind you with a rose tinted version of DB that never existed.
shadowfox87 wrote:However, he can't this time with Jiren. He simply cannot overcome the power gap with Jiren and hence, the only way to break the wall is through UI. Goku directly showed you in the manga of him trying to power up and break his limit. Whis directly stated that is not the correct way to break the wall.
Watch this be hilariously and predictably contradicted when Goku raises his power level with white hair UI to compete against Jiren.
shadowfox87 wrote:It seems I'm repeating myself over and over. Again, if the power gap is tremendously large, no matter what technique you have, it may not work. However, we've seen that characters who are significantly weaker still win against those that are stronger via technique. Ginyu uses the Body Change technique. Akuuman can explode the heart of any fighter with evil.
Those are not fighting
skills/techniques, those are gimmicks (similar to the kienzan) that ignore power level differences, not an example of a significantly weaker fighter beating a significantly stronger fighrer with "fighting skills" like you claimed.
shadowfox87 wrote:Missing the point again. SSJ Grade 3 Trunks never beat Perfect Cell. That is the point. He had greater power but lacked speed.
I'm not missing the point, you're just using terrible examples. SSG3 Trunks lacked the speed to beat a
highly suppressed, even if his speed matched proportionally to his strengt Cell would simply raise his power level and casually wreck Trunks like he did SSG2 Vegeta.
shadowfox87 wrote:Raditz was defeated by two fighters that were weaker than him. He was defeated by their coordination.
Wrong, Raditz was beaten by Angry Gohan who had a higher power level than him, then he was held in place by a severely beaten, wounded, and exhausted Goku for Piccolo to oneshot kill them with that attack that was higher than Fresh Raditz, don't twist what actually happened.
shadowfox87 wrote:Kid Buu vs South Kaioshin is not a non-sensical anime filler.
I couldn't careless about nonsensical anime filler.
shadowfox87 wrote:It's in the manga! East Kaioshin directly states that North and West were killed by Buu. Then South Kaioshin put up the greatest fight but was absorbed.
lol, Shin never stated South Kaioshin put up the greatest fight, he stated he was the strongest of them and got absorbed by Buu, everything else you made up and never took place in the manga.
shadowfox87 wrote:Lol, and now you say that DBS is trying to "pretend" the rules of DB are different than before. They are trying to write a story where it's not just about screaming, transformations, and power-ups.
Then write a completely different series, not insult the audience's intelligence by trying to poorly and retroactively change the internal mechanics of the series with laughable writing. If you don't like it, then write your own story.
shadowfox87 wrote:We are back to the exact same subject that I already answered before.
Not, we are back at the same subject you failed to overcome, repeatedly.
shadowfox87 wrote:You can mathematically cannot disprove that there are smaller power gaps in DB compared to DBZ. You simply cannot. Prove it if you can.
I already did by comparing direct power differences between fighters in original DB to Z, huge gaps existed in DB too, you're simply wrong or are just too stubborn to admit it.
shadowfox87 wrote:All power levels in DB are below 1000. The power gaps in DBZ are immensely large and Freeza was the first opponent to give this large power gap. This is not "dishonest, false, and ignorant", but actual fact that can be proven via mathematics.
Again, all you've shown me is that you have zero idea what differences/gaps in power between characters is to the point
elementary math eludes you. Like I said before, that's being intellectually dishonest, false, and just plain ignorant.
However, what this shows is basically that the power gaps are inconsistent at times and "power" should not be the only basis for determining a fight, which has been the point of my argument from the start. There are many other aspects in a fight than just battle power. Relying on just power alone is the mistake that people made when using a scouter. 