Okay, fair enough. I did say I was sorry for assuming.LightBing wrote:
Are we discussing Mr. Toriyama writing a manga or an anime he didn't made? Because yes DBZ is based on the Dragon Ball manga but he didn't made it.
Also commercial success it's the same as quality. Super is the best example we can give, it's making all it's holders tons of money while it's a very poor product for the most part.
The evolution of his style has always been present, his characters used to be much more chubby to point out the most obvious. Had Mr.Toriyama never stopped drawing Dragon Ball this is how the characters would look now, it's a very weird commentary to make. Specially when you're talking about DBZ which had various animators, it's style floating around from episode to episode.
If you believe that, sure I respect that agreeing or not. But then make sure to respect my opinion and not quote me starting with "no I suspect you wouldn't". Both of us can't be proved wrong or right, there's really nothing else to say.
The evolution of his artstyle went from being very round and chubby as you put it to very chiseled and lean by the time of the Namek saga. There was a clear evolution of his artstyle, and that adopted in Jaco as well as most of his modern designs are only a regression. Now he could've been made to draw his characters that way back during serialization but at least the characters began looking better and more detailed. You don't have to look past his drawings of kid Goku to see this.
Chapter 29 Kid Goku
1996 Daizenshuu Kid Goku
DB Minus Goku
You can't tell me this is how he would've turned out had he continued Dragon Ball in the long run. The artstyle simply isn't consistent.
Yes I was referring to the Z portion of the manga in our discussion. People remember the Dragon Ball manga for Z too, not for the first half of the story. How many people can actually recall the events of the first part of Dragon Ball just as good if not better than DBZ? Most forums also focus on Z/GT/Super, whether it be manga or anime, not OG. But you're right, success =/= quality. Although we can leave DB Minus (and Jaco imo) out of either of those two categories.
I'm not taking him away from that. I just think that he should step down and let others continue his legacy while he provides advice and feedback to them. He is and will always be credited with the success of the DB manga and contributing several character designs for the anime, including films and GT, which I think are absolutely fantastic. But from his most recent stories it's clear he's run out of original ideas or at least hasn't taken his expanded multiverse anywhere interesting. I mean, with 12 universes, a parallel Saiyan planet, and a mortal who became stronger than a GoD, we're still getting Broly and possibly Gogeta.Draconic wrote: I guess that's fair. The pre-final chapter of the Zamasu arc is indeed better than Minus alone, not to mention it's other highlights.
Hell, I don't even agree with the notion the manga would be better if he was the one writing and drawing it. He's way too old to be able to put out something of high quality with ultimatums and such. Manga isn't an easy medium and it takes a toll even on the greatest, even in their prime.
What would be better is him actually providing fully detailed outlines, not the barebone ones of recent. Let the anime staff spice them up with some of their stuff, let Toyotaro spice them up with his and we'd probably get something greater than what we had till now.
But really, taking away his credit for actually creating, writing and drawing one of the most successful mangas of all time (which isn't his only success either, but that's another subject) is going waaay to far, no matter what you think of his modern output or him as a person.