Son-Kakaroto wrote:
Nice rebuttal there, mate...
The dude is right, ssj god most impressive feat was against berrus in bog arc (in the anime), and since then ssj god hasn't done anything special in terms of winning a fight by itself. However, it is still an impressive form in the manga and is involved in key plot points, even if it's not kicking the butt of the strongest dude on the show.
Bruh
SSG was actually the main form in the BoG arc rather than God-Absorbed SSJ1. This isn't a direct win, but SSG gets the feat of providing Beerus with a challenge and is able to stay relevant because it wasn't surpassed by the regular Super Saiyan forms.
SSG is treated as Goku's ace up the sleeve when he fights Hit. Without Goku's strategic use of this form he wouldn't have been able to create an opening for when he switched to Blue.
In the FT arc Vegeta uses SSG to beat Black. Yes, he switches between SSG and SSB, but this is a tactic that simply COULD NOT have been done without SSG. It's really arbitrary trying to argue which form deserves the credit for this fight. SSG Goku and Vegeta vs Zamas and Black was meant to be a last Hurrah for SSG before Blue was completed and became Goku's only main form.
Now compare this to the anime where SSG was forgot about for something like 80 episodes until it magically appeared again even though that makes no sense because SS1 is said to be greater than SSG.
Relax on your anime derangement syndrome. Just because I am not praising the manga does not mean I am secretly trying to hype up the anime. I never brought up the anime use of ssj god compared to the manga's. I just stated the importance of ssj god in the manga, while admitting that the best showing of ssj god in general happened in the tv show. Nuff said.
I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm not even hating on the anime. The anime shoehorned in SSG like the manga shoehorned in Kaioken and SSBE(not exactly the same things in the manga, but the intention is clear).
The point of my argument is that SSG may not have won a million fights, but it had legitimate plot relevance and it was used tactically, thus making it a worthwhile inclusion.
But I guess I'm deranged. Nice one, mate.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.
Doctor. wrote:We don't bring it up because there's no proof base Goku is anywhere close to Yakon. If he was, he would have no need to transform in the first place.
Yakon never touched Goku yet Goku inflicted damage to Yakon while in base. Also, Gohan said that Goku would be fine fighting Yakon before he transformed. Also, Gohan said that if he and Goku teamed up against Yakon then they could beat him and no one would have to transform.
Do you want more evidence. You say Goku only transformed because he had to, but then why did Goku use SS2 when he was already massively more powerful than Yakon in SS1.
Also, why couldn't Yakon hit Goku if he was over 13 times stronger than Goku according to standard multipliers.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.
Doctor. wrote:We don't bring it up because there's no proof base Goku is anywhere close to Yakon. If he was, he would have no need to transform in the first place.
....except for the purposes of beating Yakon by virtue of making him overload with light that he was eating from Goku. He originally used it to light up the place because he couldn't see Yakon, and then he used it again as a strategy to overload Yakon with light. His use of SSJ has little to do with being at a power disadvantage
There's nothing consistent about the scene power scaling wise nor huge chunks of the Buu arc in general. Babidi also gives a ki level for being able to blow up a planet that would imply that SSJ Goku is only a couple times stronger than being a planet buster which is completely asinine.
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
Doctor. wrote:We don't bring it up because there's no proof base Goku is anywhere close to Yakon. If he was, he would have no need to transform in the first place.
Yakon never touched Goku yet Goku inflicted damage to Yakon while in base. Also, Gohan said that Goku would be fine fighting Yakon before he transformed. Also, Gohan said that if he and Goku teamed up against Yakon then they could beat him and no one would have to transform.
Do you want more evidence. You say Goku only transformed because he had to, but then why did Goku use SS2 when he was already massively more powerful than Yakon in SS1.
Also, why couldn't Yakon hit Goku if he was over 13 times stronger than Goku according to standard multipliers.
That's fair, but you're still assuming Kiri function the same as scouter battle power readings.
PFM18 wrote:Babidi also gives a ki level for being able to blow up a planet that would imply that SSJ Goku is only a couple times stronger than being a planet buster which is completely asinine
Doctor. wrote:We don't bring it up because there's no proof base Goku is anywhere close to Yakon. If he was, he would have no need to transform in the first place.
Yakon never touched Goku yet Goku inflicted damage to Yakon while in base. Also, Gohan said that Goku would be fine fighting Yakon before he transformed. Also, Gohan said that if he and Goku teamed up against Yakon then they could beat him and no one would have to transform.
Do you want more evidence. You say Goku only transformed because he had to, but then why did Goku use SS2 when he was already massively more powerful than Yakon in SS1.
Also, why couldn't Yakon hit Goku if he was over 13 times stronger than Goku according to standard multipliers.
That's fair, but you're still assuming Kiri function the same as scouter battle power readings.
PFM18 wrote:Babidi also gives a ki level for being able to blow up a planet that would imply that SSJ Goku is only a couple times stronger than being a planet buster which is completely asinine
That's anime filler.
Don't a lot of the handbooks say the forms multiply power and not power level specifically, especially for SS2 and SS3? I don't see why the unit of power would matter.
I think this just goes to show that the numbers and the multipliers are arbitrary and that DB fans need to stop acting like Super Saiyan = 50*Base is the fundamental law of the Dragon World that should never be argued or questioned.
My explanations for the events of my favorite current manga.
Doctor. wrote:That's fair, but you're still assuming Kiri function the same as scouter battle power readings.
The only assumption needed is that the scale of this Kiri is still linear and not exponential or logarithmic. Because multiplication is multiplication. That is about as much of a given as there is.
The scene does contradict multipliers as we know, but things are contradicted all the time in single one-off instances that I don't feel like really need to change the fabric of how we rationalize things for the entire rest of the series.
That's anime filler.
Oh, my bad.
Lord Beerus wrote:
We're not allowed to bring that up. It would ruin so many battle power calculations for several people.
We aren't allowed to bring it up because we mustn't ever bring up any power scaling inconsistencies in the original series! Strictly prohibited! Modern Dragon Ball is the first to start doing that!
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
SSG was actually the main form in the BoG arc rather than God-Absorbed SSJ1. This isn't a direct win, but SSG gets the feat of providing Beerus with a challenge and is able to stay relevant because it wasn't surpassed by the regular Super Saiyan forms.
SSG is treated as Goku's ace up the sleeve when he fights Hit. Without Goku's strategic use of this form he wouldn't have been able to create an opening for when he switched to Blue.
In the FT arc Vegeta uses SSG to beat Black. Yes, he switches between SSG and SSB, but this is a tactic that simply COULD NOT have been done without SSG. It's really arbitrary trying to argue which form deserves the credit for this fight. SSG Goku and Vegeta vs Zamas and Black was meant to be a last Hurrah for SSG before Blue was completed and became Goku's only main form.
Now compare this to the anime where SSG was forgot about for something like 80 episodes until it magically appeared again even though that makes no sense because SS1 is said to be greater than SSG.
Relax on your anime derangement syndrome. Just because I am not praising the manga does not mean I am secretly trying to hype up the anime. I never brought up the anime use of ssj god compared to the manga's. I just stated the importance of ssj god in the manga, while admitting that the best showing of ssj god in general happened in the tv show. Nuff said.
I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm not even hating on the anime. The anime shoehorned in SSG like the manga shoehorned in Kaioken and SSBE(not exactly the same things in the manga, but the intention is clear).
The point of my argument is that SSG may not have won a million fights, but it had legitimate plot relevance and it was used tactically, thus making it a worthwhile inclusion.
But I guess I'm deranged. Nice one, mate.
lol, touche. Yep, I agree about the significance of ssj god in the manga.
AvatarReiko wrote:How strong is SSJ4 Goku in relation to the Super characters? Would he even make into the Top of Super characters? Who is the strongest he could? Also, what about SSJ4 Gogeta?
in the arcade of Super DB Heroes, Goku:Xeno(who is supposed to be at least as strong as end-of-GT Goku) in SS4 was a little weaker than post-ToP Goku in Blue(no Kaiohken)
That's basically the only element of comparison we have.
Goku notes that #17 is just about as strong as him despite not doing much of anything (Imply #17 never really trained)
So much for manga 17 being only SS3 level. I've been hearing this for the past months, and I never could agree with that statement.
Don't know where anyone got 17 being SS3 strength (not specifically pointing at you), but even before this chapter was leaked, 17's mini fight with SS3 Goku was 17 not even using his full power.
Bullza wrote:When Goku says Android 17 is as strong as him, in what form is he referring to?
He's speaking in general terms.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Bullza wrote:When Goku says Android 17 is as strong as him, in what form is he referring to?
Usually it means overall power. Possibly around Goku's Blue level, like the anime demonstrated.
Which was backed by Toriyama concerning 17's enormous "potential."
Man with 17's potential perhaps we could dive into 18's as well. It'd be really cool if
"HOUSE WIFE"
But...she'd be really cool to see develop...especially alongside Krillin and...
"HOUSE.....WIFE...."
Shit....
Well pray that Kale and Caulifla don't become house wives...
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Bullza wrote:When Goku says Android 17 is as strong as him, in what form is he referring to?
Usually it means overall power. Possibly around Goku's Blue level, like the anime demonstrated.
Which was backed by Toriyama concerning 17's enormous "potential."
Well we still saw him in the recruitment period being SSJ3 level and everybody apparently praised the manga for it, and now we just kind of inconspicuously find out that he actually isn't SSJ3 level, but rather CSSB level because reasons.
Spoiler:
Super carries on much of Dragon Ball and Z's charm in ways that might not immediately be obvious, while also bringing something new to the table. I certainly can't think of any previous arcs like Goku Black, and, for all its problems, the Tournament of Power is possibly the most ambitious storytelling endeavor in series history as far as how its narrative unfolds. It's also a thrill ride, which is all I wanted and exactly what I got. Super also canonizes decades old fan theories in ways that very naturally tie into the overall fabric of Dragon Ball's world in satisfying ways. All in all, Dragon Ball, Z, and Super are all well worth experiencing.
I really don't like how strong Gohan and 17 are, but it's impossible to deny.
Gohan's strength is a huge mystery in the manga compared to other top tier fighter. And it mostly stems from how confusing Kefla's strength is.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Bullza wrote:When Goku says Android 17 is as strong as him, in what form is he referring to?
Usually it means overall power. Possibly around Goku's Blue level, like the anime demonstrated.
Which was backed by Toriyama concerning 17's enormous "potential."
Well we still saw him in the recruitment period being SSJ3 level and everybody apparently praised the manga for it, and now we just kind of inconspicuously find out that he actually isn't SSJ3 level, but rather CSSB level because reasons.
The manga had 17 push SSJ3 back. A limit of power was never given to him in the manga until now.
