"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[AnimeNation101]

The manga moving ahead with Toriyama alongside Toyotaro is a really good idea. It will also give TOEI a foundation to stand on when they start DBS. It'll be like the old days.

This is what i wanted. The anime to have a manga is can follow. The only trouble is, they will use the manga for storyboarding like they have before when Toyo’s manga was ahead and the way Toyo draws fights look very bland a lot of the time due to poor direction and use of angles. Something even Toriyama commented on before.

[batistabus]

The manga moving ahead with Toriyama alongside Toyotaro is a really good idea. It will also give TOEI a foundation to stand on when they start DBS. It'll be like the old days.

This is what i wanted. The anime to have a manga is can follow. The only trouble is, they will use the manga for storyboarding like they have before when Toyo’s manga was ahead and the way Toyo draws fights look very bland a lot of the time due to poor direction and use of angles. Something even Toriyama commented on before.

1. Toriyama commented on that back during the U6 tournament. Toyotaro has definitely improved.

2. Anime is not just animanga. Animators would still have freedom to expand fight scenes, just like they did in DB/DBZ.

3. The most important things that the manga can offer are it's plot, coherence, and tone. If Toei can capture those things and expand on others where they see fit, they'll be in much better shape than before.

Now this is just being disingenuous at best and hypocritical at worst.

That's a ridiculous statement. Kanzenshuu is exactly the place where you can express ideas that go against the mainstream perceptions of Dragon Ball. Just because a lot of people like the idea doesn't mean everyone does, or it's inherently good. I'm fairly certain that so many people like this premise based on the fact that it's about fighting dragons and little more...that's why I liked it as a kid.

always been used when the scenario is "use the dragonballs or fucking die". That's not a morality test.

Exactly. This idea that the heroes deserve to be punished for their sins feels way off base.

The idea behind the Shadow Dragons ties to a line from the Elder Kaioshin in the final arc of the series; it's a direct continuation of where the series left off.

Yes, exactly the thing I said earlier:

It's essentially as superfluous as a Disney Star Wars movie (more specifically, Rogue One or Solo): a story made from an innocuous detail and doesn't need to be told

Turning one line that everyone ignored because it was stupid into a series arc.

And how fucking villainous does it make Elder Kai that he never once told them "Hey, using the dragonballs will release the 'shadow dragons' and they're stronger than Buu, so maybe stop using them for a while, huh?"

It's a garbage twist that resulted in a garbage arc. It was bad at the conception level. Fixes exist, but I don't care to go into fan fiction.

When the Elder Kaioshin made that comment, he wasn't alluding to the emergence of a villain from the use of the Dragon Balls. He was essentially saying that, without the Dragon Balls, they'd be screwed, so they should work harder to be able to stop threats without resorting to them. Now, that's a pretty unfair thing to ask considering all they've done and how little the Kaioshin have been able to do to stop threats, but it's just an off-hand comment that shows that he's a crotchety old man pissed off about the unnatural technology and work ethic of the kids these days.

[SaiyanGod117]

Toyotaro's fight scenes are still mediocre, I haven't seen that much improvement since the Universe 6 arc, in fact, I would say he's gotten worse outside of the big fights-i.e, Goku vs Jiren or...that's it never mind.

[Burakku]

Something which bothers me.

At the end of the movie Goku brings a capsule with a house and full of stuff to Broly... Given to him by Bulma

But Vegeta had no clue about Goku visiting Broly and ask where he has been?

I’m not seeing the problem. Specify?

Why is he even asking if should have known that Goku went to Broly with major stuff given by Bulma

[Simere]

Something which bothers me.

At the end of the movie Goku brings a capsule with a house and full of stuff to Broly... Given to him by Bulma

But Vegeta had no clue about Goku visiting Broly and ask where he has been?

I’m not seeing the problem. Specify?

Why is he even asking if should have known that Goku went to Broly with major stuff given by Bulma

I'm sure Goku and Bulma do stuff all the time Vegeta doesn't know about.

[PFM18]

Toyotaro's fight scenes are still mediocre, I haven't seen that much improvement since the Universe 6 arc, in fact, I would say he's gotten worse outside of the big fights-i.e, Goku vs Jiren or...that's it never mind.

To his credit he also did a good job with the Merged Zamasu fight. That being another big fight in that time frame

IMO, he completely ruined the narrative/overall story of the latest two arcs, but he has definitely gotten better with his fight scenes.

[TKA]

Why is he even asking if should have known that Goku went to Broly with major stuff given by Bulma

Because Bulma is a person independent of Vegeta? Because Vegeta doesn't keep track of everything Bulma does?

I'm sure Goku and Bulma do stuff all the time Vegeta doesn't know about.

I don't think she'd build a secret gravity room for him.

[Rakurai]

always been used when the scenario is "use the dragonballs or fucking die". That's not a morality test.

Exactly. This idea that the heroes deserve to be punished for their sins feels way off base.

The idea behind the Shadow Dragons ties to a line from the Elder Kaioshin in the final arc of the series; it's a direct continuation of where the series left off.

Yes, exactly the thing I said earlier:

It's essentially as superfluous as a Disney Star Wars movie (more specifically, Rogue One or Solo): a story made from an innocuous detail and doesn't need to be told

Turning one line that everyone ignored because it was stupid into a series arc.

And how fucking villainous does it make Elder Kai that he never once told them "Hey, using the dragonballs will release the 'shadow dragons' and they're stronger than Buu, so maybe stop using them for a while, huh?"

It's a garbage twist that resulted in a garbage arc. It was bad at the conception level. Fixes exist, but I don't care to go into fan fiction.

When the Elder Kaioshin made that comment, he wasn't alluding to the emergence of a villain from the use of the Dragon Balls. He was essentially saying that, without the Dragon Balls, they'd be screwed, so they should work harder to be able to stop threats without resorting to them. Now, that's a pretty unfair thing to ask considering all they've done and how little the Kaioshin have been able to do to stop threats, but it's just an off-hand comment that shows that he's a crotchety old man pissed off about the unnatural technology and work ethic of the kids these days.

I'm sorry but where do people get off on thinking that the Shadow Dragons are uncharacteristic of DB when the story itself is just a jumble of consequence after consequence?

Why did Piccolo Jr almost kill Goku? Because Goku himself almost killed his dad and he wanted revenge.

Why did Nappa and Vegeta come over? Because Raditz made sure to relay the conversation to them so that he could hope they revive him.

Why did Frieza show up? Because Goku and co. thwarted his plans and humiliated him.

Why did the Androids and Cell show up? Because Goku destroyed the entire Red Ribbon army. Because F. Bulma built a time machine and F. Trunks used to do something for his own timeline.

At the very least, the Shadow Dragons saga added a layer of depth to DB that was nice. Why is it an inherently awful idea that the DBs themselves could turn against them? Because Toei latched on to an ominous remark about them during the Buu saga? Because Toriyama didn't make it? I don't even care about what the Elder Kaioshin off-handedly remarked, the concept of the Shadow Dragons itself was great and frankly better than most of the things Toriyama, Toyotarou, or Toei with Super have managed to pull out of their bag of ideas so far. A nice final villain archetype to finish the story from where it began with searching for the DBs and how it evolved to fighting against the very mystical objects that's saved them countless times.

The heroes have used DBs for their own selfish purposes. Bringing back people who died fighting or were wrongly killed. The most natural thing to do would be to accept reality and move on. It's not like the afterlife is a bad place to begin with as DB has already established. Instead the DBs provide them a cheap way to gain back what they lost, and rather selfishly sometimes too.

And what's more, the DBs have endlessly been pursued for evil and villanous means too. DB abuse is a fact and staple of the series.

And heroes being punished for their sins feeling off base? The irony. This is exactly what DBSuper did with F. Trunks and time travel shenanigans. Zamasu and Black, Whis and Beerus established that there are consequences for time travelling, just as in GT there were consequences for using the DBs often.

But the idea of consequences of abusing the DBs is better than abusing time travel because the former has been a recurring trope throughout the entire series whereas the latter was derived from a single saga.

[TKA]

I'm sorry but where do people get off on thinking that the Shadow Dragons are uncharacteristic of DB when the story itself is just a jumble of consequence after consequence?

The story never pretended Ma Jr. was justified in seeking revenge. The story never went "Lol Goku, this is what you get for killing Piccolo's dad!"

That's the "Shadow Dragons" in a nutshell. They're just another new villain, but the story keeps going "But really it's the heroes' fault that they're around!" even going so far as to (inconsistently) tie each "Shadow Dragon" to a specific wish made on the balls.

If the arc was less self-righteous and just had the "shadow dragons" being just another villain, then they'd just be another bad GT villain. Nothing more, nothing less. But with this faux-morality question thrown in, it becomes more obnoxious than the standard Toei-only fair.

[Saiga]

The Shadow Dragons could have worked if they popped up and were like "this is your fault we exist!" only for the heroes to retort with "no, that's ridiculously stupid, you're just evil" and proceeded to fight them.

Also they'd have to be an unknown threat and not something Pops/Dende/Kaioshin knew would happen but say nothing about.

Popo actually says he's heard of Shadow Dragons destroying planets before and he said nothing about this to anyone. That is a really bad way to try and make your new concept fit the existing lore.

[batistabus]

Why did Piccolo Jr almost kill Goku? Because Goku himself almost killed his dad and he wanted revenge.
Why did Nappa and Vegeta come over? Because Raditz made sure to relay the conversation to them so that he could hope they revive him.
Why did Frieza show up? Because Goku and co. thwarted his plans and humiliated him.
Why did the Androids and Cell show up? Because Goku destroyed the entire Red Ribbon army. Because F. Bulma built a time machine and F. Trunks used to do something for his own timeline.

The most natural thing to do would be to accept reality and move on. It's not like the afterlife is a bad place to begin with as DB has already established.

And heroes being punished for their sins feeling off base? The irony. This is exactly what DBSuper did with F. Trunks and time travel shenanigans. Zamasu and Black, Whis and Beerus established that there are consequences for time travelling, just as in GT there were consequences for using the DBs often.

You are totally misinterpreting the morality of the series. These villains want revenge because Goku defeated an evil person in the first place. Are you saying Goku was wrong to defeat Piccolo Daimao/Raditz/Freeza/RR?

When characters are brought back from the afterlife, it's not shown as denying reality. It's shown as righting a wrong. When a demon kills everyone on earth, is accepting reality and moving on the right thing to do when you can save everyone instead?

First, the anime pushed this much more than the manga did. Second, the person enforcing that morality is Zamasu, who the series shows is morally flawed. None of the real gods have taken action against Trunks, aside from a light scolding. In fact, Whis personally helps Trunks violate godly law.

Yes, there may be consequences for standing up to evil, but you don't blame the hero for that...you blame the villain.

[Doctor.]

That's a ridiculous statement. Kanzenshuu is exactly the place where you can express ideas that go against the mainstream perceptions of Dragon Ball. Just because a lot of people like the idea doesn't mean everyone does, or it's inherently good. I'm fairly certain that so many people like this premise based on the fact that it's about fighting dragons and little more...that's why I liked it as a kid.

Where did I accuse him of wrongthink for going against "mainstream perceptions of Dragon Ball"? I accused him of hypocrisy because he said an idea was "inherently awful" (which is a stance I abhor) for trying to tie into a line from a previous story arc, something he has lauded in Toyotaro's manga. This is about the way he approaches criticism, not the way the story arc was actually executed, as I even specified that was irrelevant to the overall point.

Please read my posts properly.

[batistabus]

That's a ridiculous statement. Kanzenshuu is exactly the place where you can express ideas that go against the mainstream perceptions of Dragon Ball. Just because a lot of people like the idea doesn't mean everyone does, or it's inherently good. I'm fairly certain that so many people like this premise based on the fact that it's about fighting dragons and little more...that's why I liked it as a kid.

Where did I accuse him of wrongthink for going against "mainstream perceptions of Dragon Ball"? I accused him of hypocrisy because he said an idea was "inherently awful" (which is a stance I abhor) for trying to tie into a line from a previous story arc, something he has lauded in Toyotaro's manga. This is about the way he approaches criticism, not the way the story arc was actually executed, as I even specified that was irrelevant to the overall point.

Please read my posts properly.

"I don't see how you expect anyone to take your arguments seriously when it seems physically impossible for you to grant Toei's writers one positive compared to Toriyama/Toyotaro/the Super manga."

You were dismissing his criticism because of what you perceive as his bias against Toei. I think it's fine that you have a problem with the phrasing "inherently awful", but he did explain it (if you read his post properly).

[Miracles]

The manga moving ahead with Toriyama alongside Toyotaro is a really good idea. It will also give TOEI a foundation to stand on when they start DBS. It'll be like the old days.

I honestly don't think the anime, which is now the big promoter of the franchise, is going to give away any major reveals (like the 'ending of an arc') concerning it's 'own continuity' to the manga.
We are not going back to the good old days when the manga does everything first and later on it's all adapted into the anime.
If the manga is allowed more freedom now it's to do his own story or what one might call 'canon-like filler' within its continuity.
Basically this is just stuff to keep us buzzy till the anime returns. The anime will catch up very soon to the manga and/or start its own arc that the manga (still) hasn't covered when it returns.

So if and when the anime returns you don't think they will do the Galactic Patrol arc? Which was stated to continue from the Broly movie? I think TOEI has to do that canon Patrol arc since it continues from the canon Broly movie which continues from the TOP. Naturally they will surpass the monthly manga but I believe they will do it while doing the same canon Patrol arc the manga is doing in their continuity. Or what if they create their anime original arcs in between arcs to give the manga time? That still would be frustrating for the fandom, delaying for a monthly manga?

The manga moving ahead with Toriyama alongside Toyotaro is a really good idea. It will also give TOEI a foundation to stand on when they start DBS. It'll be like the old days.

This is what i wanted. The anime to have a manga is can follow. The only trouble is, they will use the manga for storyboarding like they have before when Toyo’s manga was ahead and the way Toyo draws fights look very bland a lot of the time due to poor direction and use of angles. Something even Toriyama commented on before.

Yeah but TOEI knows Toriyama will give them approval to improve upon the fight scenes. This approach would definitely help TOEI's writing/story out if they got a basis to follow on that end. They could focus more on fights and visuals?

[Mister_Popo]

The manga moving ahead with Toriyama alongside Toyotaro is a really good idea. It will also give TOEI a foundation to stand on when they start DBS. It'll be like the old days.

I honestly don't think the anime, which is now the big promoter of the franchise, is going to give away any major reveals (like the 'ending of an arc') concerning it's 'own continuity' to the manga.
We are not going back to the good old days when the manga does everything first and later on it's all adapted into the anime.
If the manga is allowed more freedom now it's to do his own story or what one might call 'canon-like filler' within its continuity.
Basically this is just stuff to keep us buzzy till the anime returns. The anime will catch up very soon to the manga and/or start its own arc that the manga (still) hasn't covered when it returns.

So if and when the anime returns you don't think they will do the Galactic Patrol arc? Which was stated to continue from the Broly movie? I think TOEI has to do that canon Patrol arc since it continues from the canon Broly movie which continues from the TOP. Naturally they will surpass the monthly manga but I believe they will do it while doing the same canon Patrol arc the manga is doing in their continuity. Or what if they create their anime original arcs in between arcs to give the manga time? That still would be frustrating for the fandom, delaying for a monthly manga?

I still don't think the manga will give away very important plot elements for the anime, like the conclusion of a big arc, this will probably happen within the anime itself. What i rather assume that will happen is the following:

1. The manga tells the first part of the Galactic Patrol Arc, maybe with some 'filler' to give the anime time to catch up, only to give the anime the final conclusion of the arc because of its massive promotional value.

2. The Galactic Patrol Arc is canon, as Toriyama is involved, but in effect a manga 'original arc'. Toriyama has stated there will be stuff in the manga that won't be in the anime. What he exactly meant is rather vague. But it could be meant literal: it's a manga 'exclusive', like it has been promoted in the first place. It could still be mentioned in the anime like Broly in the manga, but it's not exploited competely. It's a nice win-win when everyone is waiting for the new anime: it draws more attention to the manga for exclusive content, while the anime can start with all new content as well when it resumes.

After this initial 'catch-up', the current situation of anime being first and Toyotaro adapting later on could resume OR:

3. The manga completely starts to diverge from the anime, creating a 'exclusive' storyline, with similar story parts, transformations and/or characters to keep some resemblance for promotional reasons. At the end mutual transformations / action figures are most important to sell toys, not story arcs. With events that are very important to Toriyama they might still run somehow symmetric, with 'less important events' they can still diverge.

Nothing is carved into stone. Of course we all want a better written anime, i think Toyotaro might have some role in this, i am uncertain though he will completely determine the anime story from now on and become what Toriyama once was for the original anime run. He can, with Toriyamas concent, become this for the manga at least, but the anime is too important a marketing tool these days to depend on Toyotaro's care alone storywise.

Of course you don't have to follow me on this one, but that's how i see matters at this point.

[Liquir]

DBS Volume 8
Toriyama's Corrections (Toyotaro's original in the top left, Toriyama's in the bottom right )

Spoiler:

Bonus images :
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1069652434195177475
https://twitter.com/suisoukiraki/status ... 0170675200

A summary of DBS vol.8's short Toriyama Q&A:

Spoiler:

[Gafonso6]

DBS Volume 8
Toriyama's Corrections (Toyotaro's original in the top left, Toriyama's in the bottom right )

Spoiler:

Addind to the comparison. Here's Toyotaro's original, Toriyama's rough correction and Toyotaro's final work.

[sunsetshimmer]

Popo actually says he's heard of Shadow Dragons destroying planets before and he said nothing about this to anyone. That is a really bad way to try and make your new concept fit the existing lore.

It's much better than Beerus being the one that ordered to kill saiyans or even worse he was the one that sealed Old Kai.
Not to mention Frieza surpassing SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJ God and SSJ Blue in 4 months. If he was so afraid of "super saiyan" why didn't he train for a week? That should be enough. Why didn't he train for a week before arriving on Earth after Namek?

[prince212]

DBS Volume 8

Bonus images :
https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1069652434195177475
https://twitter.com/suisoukiraki/status ... 0170675200

Excellent art

[Saiga]

Popo actually says he's heard of Shadow Dragons destroying planets before and he said nothing about this to anyone. That is a really bad way to try and make your new concept fit the existing lore.

It's much better than Beerus being the one that ordered to kill saiyans or even worse he was the one that sealed Old Kai.
Not to mention Frieza surpassing SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSJ God and SSJ Blue in 4 months. If he was so afraid of "super saiyan" why didn't he train for a week? That should be enough. Why didn't he train for a week before arriving on Earth after Namek?

I am not a fan of any of those details so I don't see your point. They're ALL bad.