"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Lord Beerus]

It's really semantics at this point. Both Vegeta's technique and #17's technique ultimately fall the same category of "user unleashes attacks that may also harm the user".

You're thoroughly missing the point.

You can justify 17's technique. The justification, however, flies in the face of everything that sequence of events was alluding to.

It's the equivalent of saying "Darth Vader only beat Obi-Wan because he was a tired old man." Yes, it's true Obi-Wan is a tired old man, but the point of the scene was that Vader had surpassed him.

Same case here. You can headcanon that 17 learned a self-destruct move offscreen, but literally everything was alluding to the fact that he has a bomb in his chest.

But it's never implied he had a bomb in chest in the anime. Just the fad he blew himself up; and self-destructing isn't just tied to have some kind of nuke or bomb implanted within you. Self-destruction can be based on Ki manipulation. We see this already in the main story from several other characters.

[batistabus]

Again , this was not a fake , was a gamble

Hmm.

I mean, even if he didn't self-destruct, he still unleashed a blast right in front of his face. That could certainly present a risk, right?

[prince212]

Again , this was not a fake , was a gamble

Hmm.

I mean, even if he didn't self-destruct, he still unleashed a blast right in front of his face. That could certainly present a risk, right?

I.d.k men , the guy was doing to many things at the same time , building a shield for Gokû and vegeta too , I admit it was cool when that aired on tv , but after reading the manga explanation, plan and teamwork , that anime scene when a17 showed back himself in the tournament talking about gamble looks .i.d.h.w

[PFM18]

True. However it was never established that 17 had a special technique that could blow himself up like Chaotzu or Vegeta. Sure we can assume the scene where 17 blew himself up in the TOP as having the capability now. However, that spur of the moment scene also makes one think TOEI referenced the androids bombs. It had no explanation for it other than 17 surviving by luck. That's why it seems like a contradiction.

See, that's the problem, you're assuming that it is a special technique. By all indications, we are lead to believe that it is an extremely basic technique that requires little to no effort to execute. Like, as in, there's no reason why ANYONE wouldn't be able to use it. Honestly, do you think Vegeta thought to himself "Yeah so one of these days I'm probably going to blow myself up so I'm going to learn how to do a technique that allows me to do that"? No. Vegeta obviously didn't practice or learn such a technique at any point. Chaotzu never alludes to training for it in any capacity.

You can justify 17's technique. The justification, however, flies in the face of everything that sequence of events was alluding to.

Not at all. How does the scene, in any way whatsoever, indicate that 17 is using the bomb that Gero implanted in him? Nobody mentions a bomb in his chest, it literally isn't implied in any capacity that it happened that way.

Was it an inconsistency when Vegeta just decided to do it? Or did the biggest narcissist in existence plan on sacrificing himself for others and go out of his way to learn the technique? Did Chaotzu at any point indicate he trained to learn how to do it?

Spoiler:

No, he sure as hell didn't.

Again , this was not a fake , was a gamble

Hmm.

I mean, even if he didn't self-destruct, he still unleashed a blast right in front of his face. That could certainly present a risk, right?

Right. Whether he released an enormous blast right in front of him that risked killing himself, or used his body as a bomb similar to Vegeta or Chaotzu, it really doesn't matter. at no point is it implied he was using the bomb that was implanted in his chest by Gero.

So yes, while he technically could've learned a self-destruct move offscreen, it's clearly not what the scene is alluding to.

We are never lead to believe that it is something that needs to be consciously learned. The way it has been presented in the past, is that it is an extremely basic technique that Vegeta or Chaotzu can know without ever putting in any effort to learn it, and 17 should be no different.

[Rakurai]

Toyotarou along with Nozawa will be interviewed in the Jan 2019 issue of Davinci (already released in Japan).

https://mobile.twitter.com/TOYOTARO_Vju ... 2108305408

Someone will probably be working to translate the DB section soon.

[Marlowe89]

It's up to the individual as to whether he/she feels the scenario calls for a kamikaze attack like that.

I'm gonna level with you here: I have no idea why you brought this up. It's unrelated to everything I'm talking about.

I mentioned 18 because her sibling not being entirely artificial means nothing when 18 herself intended to use her own bomb in the Cell arc. It demonstrates that these characters had no alternative. Assuming that they did all along flies in the face of what the manga establishes; on the other hand, assuming that one of them learned this vague "Vegeta's attack but not Vegeta's attack" off-screen between the Cell and Universe Survival arcs, despite not being alluded to, flies in the face of coherent writing. Neither scenario justifies its existence in the story.

Chiaotzu, Cell, and the Saibaman self-destructing fall into the same category of what #17 did, but they don't have any bombs inside them, do they? Who's to say #17 couldn't be able to do the same thing as them?

It's funny that you would ask that question. The exact same guide I linked to (particularly the "Self-Destruction" description) clarifies it's a special ability that few characters have access to because all of them are attacks unique to that character: Chiaotzu can blow himself up because of his psychic abilities, 16 can do it because of his bomb, and Cell can do it because he uses a self-inflation technique. All of these are different moves with different mechanics.

Also, the burden of proof rests on your shoulders, not mine.

And now we know that character who pulls a stunt a like that can survive they're bodies become tough enough.

"This example of bad writing in the DBS anime totally lines up with this other example of bad writing in the DBS anime."

Yeah, whatever, cool story. I don't care if Toei is consistent with Toei. I care if they're consistent with Toriyama's manga. That consistency is, in the absolute best case scenario, questionable for reasons highlighted earlier in our discussion.

17 surviving a technique that's supposed to blow himself up is analogous to a suicide bomber walking into a building, doing the deed and then emerging from the rubble relatively unscathed. Now imagine if that same suicide bomber didn't really have a bomb or any other means to blow himself up. Now think about how asinine both of these scenarios actually are, especially when combined into one scenario.

Cell is a terrible example to use given the circumstances of his regeneration from his core are a huge plothole.

On the off-chance that you're referring to Cell's top half getting blasted away earlier in the arc, that's... completely irrelevant to the circumstances we're talking about.

Cell at least provided a reason for surviving his explosion. What the fuck is 17's excuse?

[BWri]

17 surviving a technique that's supposed to blow himself up is analogous to a suicide bomber walking into a building, doing the deed and then emerging from the rubble relatively unscathed. Now imagine if that same suicide bomber didn't really have a bomb or any other means to blow himself up. Now think about how asinine both of these scenarios actually are, especially when combined into one scenario.

My overall sentiments about #17's explosion are the same as yours, but this example isn't completely analogous to the situation. After all, #17 is a character known for his barriers. It was his #1 technique in the anime and he even had such mastery that he could use it offensively. Most likely, he (somehow) nestled a barrier between himself and the blast. Headcanon, sure, but the likely scenario given what we known about #17. That's easy enough to believe, even though the mechanics of the self destruct technique are at best vague.

What tears this apart is the fact that Vegeta can do the same thing. Vegeta has pretty good ki control but I haven't much seen him do too much defensively with it, so its much less forgiving when he pulls the same stunt.

Overall it is bad writing in both cases because 1, the mechanics of the kamikaze are ill defined, 2 the reason that both can survive the explosions makes no sense without proper details.

[PFM18]

Frankly, I don't care if what they do in this arc is consistent with what was in the Buu arc because the Buu arc isn't consistent with itself and so it is already on a shaky foundation to begin with.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm gonna level with you here: I have no idea why you brought this up. It's unrelated to everything I'm talking about.

I mentioned 18 because her sibling not being entirely artificial means nothing when 18 herself intended to use her own bomb in the Cell arc. It demonstrates that these characters had no alternative. Assuming that they did all along flies in the face of what the manga establishes; on the other hand, assuming that one of them learned this vague "Vegeta's attack but not Vegeta's attack" off-screen between the Cell and Universe Survival arcs, despite not being alluded to, flies in the face of coherent writing. Neither scenario justifies its existence in the story.

Your original point was that:

Androids being able to self-destruct without their fucking self-destruction bombs is inherently counterintuitive and goes against every plot-related reason these characters had back in the Cell arc to intentionally use them in the first place.

And my response to that was, yes, #17 is a cyborg, but he's mostly human based, which gives him access to Ki based abilities and to be able manipulate Ki in general. Then you brought up the point of how 18 isn't purely artificial either and whether that stopped her from threatening to use her bomb in a last-ditch effort. Which had nothing to do with anything about my original response to how #17 -- and by virtue #18 -- aren't entirely mechanical based cyborgs and utilize and can use Ki based attacks in any fashion they please.

And such Ki based attacks included being able to self-destruct. I thought you were still referring to the Universal Survival arc, but you weren't. You just went off in a tangent about how#18 intended to use the bomb inside of her to self-destruct in the Cell arc. Which had nothing to do with anything about my original response being that #17 (and #18) being able to use Ki based attacks.

The Super anime is already well aware that #17 and #18 had the bombs inside of them removed. The show just simply strongly implies that #17 manipulated his Ki to act as a bomb and blew himself up. Which is again, an ability, we see several other character do in the franchise. Or at the very least, attempt to do.

#18 picked up unique Ki based abilities off-screen given a period amount of time, and given how adapt #17 became with his Android Barrier -- especially compared to how mundane it originally appeared in Toriyama's story -- it's obvious #17 spent a lot of time bolstering and improving his arsenal of Ki based/manipulated attacks. I mean, 10 years is a lot of fucking time to come up with different techniques.

It's funny that you would ask that question. The exact same guide I linked to (particularly the "Self-Destruction" description) clarifies it's a special ability that few characters have access to because all of them are attacks unique to that character: Chiaotzu can blow himself up because of his psychic abilities, 16 can do it because of his bomb, and Cell can do it because he uses a self-inflation technique. All of these are different moves with different mechanics.

Also, the burden of proof rests on your shoulders, not mine.

You seem to continuously ignore the fact that the very same guide book you mentioned also classifies Self-Destruction as also a Ki Manipulation based technique. And guess who can use Ki?

"This example of bad writing in the DBS anime totally lines up with this other example of bad writing in the DBS anime."

Yeah, whatever, cool story. I don't care if Toei is consistent with Toei. I care if they're consistent with Toriyama's manga. That consistency is, in the absolute best case scenario, questionable for reasons highlighted earlier in our discussion.

17 surviving a technique that's supposed to blow himself up is analogous to a suicide bomber walking into a building, doing the deed and then emerging from the rubble relatively unscathed. Now imagine if that same suicide bomber didn't really have a bomb or any other means to blow himself up. Now think about how asinine both of these scenarios actually are, especially when combined into one scenario.

Toriyama isn't even consistent with his own story at times whether it comes to him writing the manga, telling new stories since Battle Of Gods or giving tibits in interviews over the last few years. You may call it bad writing that characters can survive such extreme scenarios, but we have the context of it.

Also, the suicide bomber comparison is absurd. Of course the suicide bomber would die in real life, but guess what... Dragon Ball is not real life. Dragon Ball does not try or even pretend to apply real life logic in its story. What can happen in real life doesn't always correlate to what can happen in the world of Dragon Ball. You don't see people in real life training in environments that have ten times the gravity of Earth or training with several tons of weight on each limb, do you? So trying to draw up that comparison is a fool's errands.

Dragon Ball is a story that consistently twists and bends its already questionable rules, to facilitate the plot moving forward in a certain manner. I'm not saying that this inherently a good or bad things, that's but that Dragon Ball operates in storytelling sometimes. In a series where characters can breath in space, turn people into carrots, spit out sentient exploding ghosts, rip holes through dimensions by screaming and can destroy the moon without any effect on the Earth's environment, I think it's safe to say that Dragon Ball and logic don't always go hand-in-hand.

On the off-chance that you're referring to Cell's top half getting blasted away earlier in the arc, that's... completely irrelevant to the circumstances we're talking about.

Cell at least provided a reason for surviving his explosion. What the fuck is 17's excuse?

The circumstances of Cell's survival are wholly relevant to the conversation. Him coming back to life was nonsensical. You decry Toei for not being consistent with Toriyama's story, but Toriyama isn't consistent with himself. Cell core's was fucking destroyed. He shouldn't have been able regenerate. Period. But the explanation for his survival actually creates more issues than just the fact he survive in the first place does.

The justification for Cell's survival terrible because not only is not consistent what was we previously see, but it actually creates more problems than a scenario where no explanation given would have. The Super anime has given the context that you can withstand self induced (seemingly) fatal attacks if you body is strong enough. It was a gamble, by #17's own admission, and he was fortunate to survive. Does that seem entirely logical? It may not. But with how much Dragon Ball bends and twist its own rules for the sake of moving the plot forward, it's par for the course. This does not not mean you have to accept this. It's just Dragon Ball doing what it's done before.

[supersaiyanZero]

People are actually arguing the validity of 17 and Vegeta blowing themselves up and shrugging it off like it was no big deal? Literally cannot believe this fandom. One was a "throwback" thrown in there purely for nostalgia's sake which made no narrative sense whatsoever and the other an equally lazy cop out that served as nothing but an emotional grab which was nullified barely an episode later. How anybody can defend any of this is beyond fucking reason.

[PFM18]

People are actually arguing the validity of 17 and Vegeta blowing themselves up and shrugging it off like it was no big deal?

No, not at all. That's an entirely different discussion. Try to pay more attention.

Some people are irrationally making the claim that in the anime iteration that 17 used the bomb placed in his chest to self-destruct(therefore making it an inconsistency because the bomb was removed), when that wasn't hinted at, stated or implied in any capacity whatsoever.

[Marlowe89]

Overall it is bad writing in both cases because 1, the mechanics of the kamikaze are ill defined, 2 the reason that both can survive the explosions makes no sense without proper details.

Correct. People can headcanon their way out of almost anything, but that doesn't mean it jives with the narrative.

Which had nothing to do with anything about my original response being that #17 (and #18) being able to use Ki based attacks.

Honestly, I don't think you could have missed the point any harder if you tried.

It has everything to do with your response about 17 and 18 being able to use ki-based attacks, since you were clearly trying (and failing, which I'll get into below) to exemplify how they could have also used Vegeta's self-destruction technique or something similar without a bomb. For reasons I've already pointed out, you're appealing to pointless technicalities at the expense of the story. 17 and 18 had bombs in their chests to begin with because it was their means of self-destruction, something further established by 18's dialogue and motives. Assuming they had an alternative all along goes against the story; meanwhile, assuming they developed an alternative isn't hinted at by the story at all.

It's pretty easy to verify that you're not understanding anyone's point in this thread when you mention stuff like this:

I mean, 10 years is a lot of fucking time to come up with different techniques.

...which is exactly the problem. You're only rationalizing something that isn't introduced, explained, or given any kind of precedent in the events leading up to 17's """lucky""" survival in the tournament. We have a word for that -- it's called headcanon.

You seem to continuously ignore the fact that the very same guide book you mentioned also classifies Self-Destruction as also a Ki Manipulation based technique. And guess who can use Ki?

I shouldn't have to explain why this isn't a valid counterargument. Can Vegeta use Goku's Instant Transmission? Can Goku use Vegeta's Final Flash? What about Piccolo's Makankosappo?

Ki manipulation doesn't automatically give you the ability to do everything that every other character can do using ki. Quite the contrary, actually; the point of me bringing up the Daizenshuu was to demonstrate how the few characters capable of self-destruction use completely different methods for it. You were trying to frame Vegeta's attack as some kind of basic technique everyone can do when the reality is that it's anything but.

The circumstances of Cell's survival are wholly relevant to the conversation.

The circumstances of Cell's earlier destruction from Goku have nothing to do with this conversation. You're fundamentally misinterpreting why I brought up Cell and the suicide bomber analogy in the first place.

My point was that when characters in Dragon Ball blow themselves up... they fucking blow themselves up. That's what self-destruction intrinsically means, regardless of whether it occurs in a crazy fictional world like Toriyama's or ours. That's what Cell did, regardless of your problems with him being able to regenerate from it. When they suddenly have the ability to blow themselves up "but not really lol" and then survive because they were "REALLY LUCKY!!!", it devalues every ounce of impact these moments previously had while simultaneously being an affront to both common sense and the series' internal logic. It's beyond ridiculous.

[Lord Beerus]

Honestly, I don't think you could have missed the point any harder if you tried.

It has everything to do with your response about 17 and 18 being able to use ki-based attacks, since you were clearly trying (and failing, which I'll get into below) to exemplify how they could have also used Vegeta's self-destruction technique or something similar without a bomb. For reasons I've already pointed out, you're appealing to pointless technicalities at the expense of the story. 17 and 18 had bombs in their chests to begin with because it was their means of self-destruction, something further established by 18's dialogue and motives. Assuming they had an alternative all along goes against the story; meanwhile, assuming they developed an alternative isn't hinted at by the story at all.

You're putting words into my mouth.

I stated that we see characters blow themselves up without having to need have bomb inside of them (a point you constantly ignore) and that is possible for a character to blow themselves up using some form of Ki manipulation (another point you constantly ignore). It is never implied in the Super anime, at any stage that, #17 still had the bomb inside of him. What the story does state is that there is common assumption that #17 self destructed, which, as I stated multiple times, is not inherently tied to having some kind of detonation device and can be simulated using Ki.

You. Can. Blow. Yourself. Up. Without. A. Bomb.

We've seen people in Dragon Ball pull this stunt several times. We see this in the manga, the anime, and even the movies. The Dragon Ball Super anime did not just suddenly invent this.

...which is exactly the problem. You're only rationalizing something that isn't introduced, explained, or given any kind of precedent in the events leading up to 17's """lucky""" survival in the tournament. We have a word for that -- it's called headcanon.

If you want to ignore the explanation given that Vegeta survived his Final Explosion because he body was tough enough to withstand the attack -- giving credence that you can withstand attacks like that -- or that blowing yourself up is a technique that character can perform using Ki -- something we see in the original story and, hell, even see attempted in the Future Trunks arc -- just to further your argument, then be my guest. But I'm not going to ignore context Dragon Ball has already provided. This is not some super special technique that can be only performed by a select few, at you think that may be the case.

I shouldn't have to explain why this isn't a valid counterargument. Can Vegeta use Goku's Instant Transmission? Can Goku use Vegeta's Final Flash? What about Piccolo's Makankosappo?

Ki manipulation doesn't automatically give you the ability to do everything that every other character can do using ki. Quite the contrary, actually; the point of me bringing up the Daizenshuu was to demonstrate how the few characters capable of self-destruction use completely different methods for it. You were trying to frame Vegeta's attack as some kind of basic technique everyone can do when the reality is that it's anything but.

Instant Transmission, Final Flash and the Makankosappo are all techniques that could taught to or imitated by anyone. Hell, we see Future Trunks use Vegeta's Final Flash and Galick Gun the Super anime. And that not even covering how many technique Goku and Majin Boo use from other people. That's like saying because Krillin invented the Kienzan and that Tenshinhan invented the Taiyoken specifically for themselves, that nobody else can do it without proper explanation. And several people in the story uses those techniques. Not a good counter argument.

The circumstances of Cell's earlier destruction from Goku have nothing to do with this conversation. You're fundamentally misinterpreting why I brought up Cell and the suicide bomber analogy in the first place.

My point was that when characters in Dragon Ball blow themselves up... they fucking blow themselves up. That's what self-destruction intrinsically means, regardless of whether it occurs in a crazy fictional world like Toriyama's or ours. That's what Cell did, regardless of your problems with him being able to regenerate from it. When they suddenly have the ability to blow themselves up "but not really lol" and then survive because they were "REALLY LUCKY!!!", it devalues every ounce of impact these moments previously had while simultaneously being an affront to both common sense and the series' internal logic. It's beyond ridiculous.

Dragon Ball GT already provided that context that characters who blow themselves up can survive.

And with the case of Cell, his self-destruction had already devalued the whole technique in of itself considering that moment rendered Goku's sacrifice and death meaningless and the explanation of his survival results in one of Dragon Ball's most infamous plot holes and continuity fuck ups.

This not me saying that everything about #17 surviving blowing himself and surviving up is perfectly acceptable, or everyone has to be fine with it. It is moment where you need to suspend your disbelief, but it's the not the first time Dragon Ball defies it's logic to move the plot forward and it's not even the most egregious case.

[Miracles]

True. However it was never established that 17 had a special technique that could blow himself up like Chaotzu or Vegeta. Sure we can assume the scene where 17 blew himself up in the TOP as having the capability now. However, that spur of the moment scene also makes one think TOEI referenced the androids bombs. It had no explanation for it other than 17 surviving by luck. That's why it seems like a contradiction.

See, that's the problem, you're assuming that it is a special technique. By all indications, we are lead to believe that it is an extremely basic technique that requires little to no effort to execute. Like, as in, there's no reason why ANYONE wouldn't be able to use it. Honestly, do you think Vegeta thought to himself "Yeah so one of these days I'm probably going to blow myself up so I'm going to learn how to do a technique that allows me to do that"? No. Vegeta obviously didn't practice or learn such a technique at any point. Chaotzu never alludes to training for it in any capacity.

Official sources has Choutzu and Vegeta's exploding as techniques tho. To have 17 all of a sudden explode with no explanation makes it look like a contradiction. Even tho TOEI didn't mention anything about a device, bad writing [lack of explanation] makes the audience think back to the androids and their bombs. Especially when it was not established in canon, apart from the androids self destruct devices, they couldn't accomplish such a thing.

[prince212]

Toyotarou along with Nozawa will be interviewed in the Jan 2019 issue of Davinci (already released in Japan).

https://mobile.twitter.com/TOYOTARO_Vju ... 2108305408

Someone will probably be working to translate the DB section soon.

The way toyotaro talks about broly... makes me think he’ll appear sooner than later in the manga , with something non related to the movie ..
Good vibes toyo , always spreading the message of keep on improving

[alakazam^]

Do we even know if #17 knows he doesn't have the bomb anymore? Maybe that's why he was able to survive because he was trying to activate the bomb but couldn't and that explosion didn't have enough force because of it.

Anyway, the Daizenshuu doesn't decide what works or not in the series and Vegeeta alone is evidence of anyone being able to blow themselves up if they so decide.

[BWri]

I wonder if the ki based Kamikaze techniques are an extension of the Explosive Wave and Super Explosive Wave used by characters like Piccolo and Vegeta. Vegetas Final Explosion seemed similar to those techniques, but I got the impression that it used literally every ounce of ki he had, which was why he turned to stone. If it is then it must be a fine line between self destruction and the all-around blast that Piccolo likes to use. Thats one of the few ways the "gamble" could make sense.

[batistabus]

Do we even know if #17 knows he doesn't have the bomb anymore? Maybe that's why he was able to survive because he was trying to activate the bomb but couldn't and that explosion didn't have enough force because of it.

I don't remember if it's ever stated in the anime, but it is in the manga.

Spoiler:

If he actually tried to set off the bomb, nothing would happen at all.

Spoiler:

[Marlowe89]

I stated that we see characters blow themselves up without having to need have bomb inside of them (a point you constantly ignore) and that is possible for a character to blow themselves up using some form of Ki manipulation (another point you constantly ignore).

"It has everything to do with your response about 17 and 18 being able to use ki-based attacks, since you were clearly trying to exemplify how they could have also used Vegeta's self-destruction technique or something similar without a bomb."

In direct contrast to ignoring them, those two points are almost exclusively the only things I've been addressing throughout this entire conversation.

Work on your reading comprehension skills and make an effort to respond to those rebuttals or don't reply. You're literally wasting both mine and others people's time by repeatedly failing to do so, and that's not a point I intend to repeat going forward.

But I'm not going to ignore context Dragon Ball has already provided.

No, you're just ignoring the fact that I've already addressed every one of those things. It's more like you're constantly moving goalposts to some Toei-inclusive context after I already made it clear that it's not what I'm discussing, so again, for obvious reasons, I won't be replying to anything about Future Trunks in the DBS anime, GT, or the anime's Tournament of Power going forward. They have no precedence in this discussion because they're wholly irrelevant to my premise.

That's like saying because Krillin invented the Kienzan and that Tenshinhan invented the Taiyoken specifically for themselves, that nobody else can do it without proper explanation.

No, it's not like saying that.

Vegeta's self-destruction technique is specific to Vegeta. If it wasn't, the (select few) other characters capable of blowing themselves up wouldn't have used completely different moves, some of which aren't even directly ki-based, to facilitate the same result.

Pointing out that moves can be learned or imitated is such an absurd misrepresentation of what I'm saying that I'm almost surprised at how consistently you appear to be ignoring it. Again, I shouldn't have to explain why Vegeta doesn't use Instant Transmission. He doesn't know how to use it. 17 wasn't around to imitate or learn Vegeta's attack, therefore it's actually less reasonable to presume that he -- by the main story's framework -- CAN use it rather than can't.

This reeeeaaally isn't difficult to understand. If anyone could do it without learning it, barring those with the ability to copy techniques they directly observe themselves, then that would have been presented in the original manga. It wasn't.

It is moment where you need to suspend your disbelief, but it's the not the first time Dragon Ball defies it's logic to move the plot forward and it's not even the most egregious case.

My argument pertains entirely to the former ("you need to suspend your disbelief", "Dragon Ball defied its own logic"), not the latter.

[shadowfox87]

People are still talking about 17 self-destructing in manga vs anime even now? There are much bigger inconsistencies to talk about then that. There was already a post by herms98 that said that the self-destruct used by Vegeta and Chaotzu has a literal translation as "sutemi" while what 17 used is "jibaku": https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/1068708017804210176

It should be an open and shut case here. They are different.