Things that grind your gears

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Tavarano
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Tavarano » Fri Dec 07, 2018 12:19 am

ABED wrote:
Tavarano wrote:
ABED wrote: How does it not make sense for their characters?
It's like they didn't have self-preservation instinct, they know what happened when Nappa and Vegeta arrived the last time so basic logic dictates that they would not want to go through the same thing again. I assume that their attitude has been impacted by them all learning that death is quite meaningless, it becomes more obvious in Buu arc where death is a casual thing.
It's not they don't have an instinct for self preservation, it's that they love combat. That's always been the case. It has nothing to do with death being meaningless and everything to do with their goal - to get stronger and fight strong opponents that challenge them. I don't see how that goes against their characterization. This isn't new. They experienced world ending stakes prior to the Saiyans.
Don't you think it's weird that Chaozu's sacrificial death in saiyan arc ends up being a very intense and touching moment for Tenshinhan, but then he has no problem letting androids come potentially damning his dear friend to the same fate again? I doubt that they would be so lax about threats to their lives without dragon balls and afterlife, when Daimao was threatening to kill Tenshinhan if Goku moved, Goku was initially fine letting him die because he could ressurect him later, but changed his mind once Daimao told him that he killed Shenron, dragon balls and nature of death in DB universe do affect decision making of the characters.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by zDBZ » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:55 am

Tavarano wrote:
ABED wrote:
Tavarano wrote: It's like they didn't have self-preservation instinct, they know what happened when Nappa and Vegeta arrived the last time so basic logic dictates that they would not want to go through the same thing again. I assume that their attitude has been impacted by them all learning that death is quite meaningless, it becomes more obvious in Buu arc where death is a casual thing.
It's not they don't have an instinct for self preservation, it's that they love combat. That's always been the case. It has nothing to do with death being meaningless and everything to do with their goal - to get stronger and fight strong opponents that challenge them. I don't see how that goes against their characterization. This isn't new. They experienced world ending stakes prior to the Saiyans.
Don't you think it's weird that Chaozu's sacrificial death in saiyan arc ends up being a very intense and touching moment for Tenshinhan, but then he has no problem letting androids come potentially damning his dear friend to the same fate again? I doubt that they would be so lax about threats to their lives without dragon balls and afterlife, when Daimao was threatening to kill Tenshinhan if Goku moved, Goku was initially fine letting him die because he could ressurect him later, but changed his mind once Daimao told him that he killed Shenron, dragon balls and nature of death in DB universe do affect decision making of the characters.
And there's the fact that, after the plot no longer requires them to prioritize getting a good fight over stopping the Androids before they're built, they become proactive and try to stop threats before they can emerge later on in the saga.
MasenkoHA wrote:
zDBZ wrote:
MasenkoHA wrote:
Goku is a guy who constantly wants to find stronger and stronger opponents to test his own strength and improve. himself. How do all those example not make sense for his character?
ABED wrote:How does it not make sense for their characters?
At this point, I might as well source the thing I've been referring to this whole time.

Yeah his argument hinges on Goku and friends are good people who do what’s right so therefore they’re not capable of short sightedness or hubris. Again Goku is a guy who will spare a genocidal psychopath who was an accessory in the death of friends for a rematch or allowed a genocidial tyrant who killed his best friend to power up to 100 percent at full power to have a proper fight. And Goku’s motivation has ALWAYS been to test his strength by seeking stronger opponents. Nothing about wanting to fight these Cyborgs it out of character for Goku

He also use Tenshinhan not wanting to use the dragon balls to stop Piccolo but then being like okay yes to prove his point. But all this shows is the Z fighters are suspectibe to being short sighted until the situation forces them to seeing how bad things really are.
Goku desiring fights to test his skills isn't compatible with him being a basically good person. It's after the revelation of his Saiyan heritage that his desire for a fight starts to supersede larger concerns, and only well into the Buu saga (and now Super) does that become a consistent trait. Another - valid - DBD criticism is that, after a certain point, Goku becomes more likely to behave in whatever way the plot requires than in a way consistent with a character. Case in point: that scene where Freeza powers to 100%. IIRC, Goku goes from declaring that he won't let Freeza do so, to letting him power up, without any clear motive behind the change.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Kunzait_83 » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:48 am

zDBZ wrote:It's after the revelation of his Saiyan heritage that his desire for a fight starts to supersede larger concerns, and only well into the Buu saga (and now Super) does that become a consistent trait.
Goku vs Piccolo Ma Junior has Goku risking the fate of the world constantly for the sake of his tournament victory against Piccolo. Marking down the Saiya-jin arc as the beginning of this is flat out factually wrong on its face: it was there back in original DB as well.
zDBZ wrote:Case in point: that scene where Freeza powers to 100%. IIRC, Goku goes from declaring that he won't let Freeza do so, to letting him power up, without any clear motive behind the change.
You don't recall correctly. Goku clearly states why he lets Freeza power up to full strength: he says flat out that he wants to beat Freeza at his absolute best as part of his revenge for Freeza killing Kuririn.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by zDBZ » Fri Dec 07, 2018 3:24 am

Kunzait_83 wrote:
zDBZ wrote:It's after the revelation of his Saiyan heritage that his desire for a fight starts to supersede larger concerns, and only well into the Buu saga (and now Super) does that become a consistent trait.
Goku vs Piccolo Ma Junior has Goku risking the fate of the world constantly for the sake of his tournament victory against Piccolo. Marking down the Saiya-jin arc as the beginning of this is flat out factually wrong on its face: it was there back in original DB as well.
zDBZ wrote:Case in point: that scene where Freeza powers to 100%. IIRC, Goku goes from declaring that he won't let Freeza do so, to letting him power up, without any clear motive behind the change.
You don't recall correctly. Goku clearly states why he lets Freeza power up to full strength: he says flat out that he wants to beat Freeza at his absolute best as part of his revenge for Freeza killing Kuririn.
The Saiyan saga, and his sparing of Vegeta, is the first time Goku so nakedly jeopardizes the world for the sake of a rematch with a villain. Sparing Piccolo had a "let's fight again" component, but there were other factors at play - Kami and the Dragon Balls. But the larger point was that it's after the revelation of Goku's heritage that his character makes a noticeable shift, not that there's a singular incident.

And the issue isn't Goku having a motive for letting Freeza power up; it's the lack of motive for him changing his mind after first keeping up a fight with Freeza before the latter has a chance to do the power up, which he does - in the anime, at least. If I've confused that with the manga, then my bad.

EDIT: I did not confuse the two. In the manga, Goku declares he won't let Freeza power up, and then changes his mind in the next chapter. That isn't explained, though his motive once his mind changes is.

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MasenkoHA
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by MasenkoHA » Fri Dec 07, 2018 8:17 am

zDBZ wrote:[
Goku desiring fights to test his skills isn't compatible with him being a basically good person
And yet his desire to test his skills and him being a good-natured person have been part of his character since the very beginning.
. Case in point: that scene where Freeza powers to 100%. IIRC, Goku goes from declaring that he won't let Freeza do so, to letting him power up, without any clear motive behind the change.
But wanting to test his strength by fighting someone at their max is consistent with his character

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Majin Buu » Fri Dec 07, 2018 1:36 pm

It personally annoys me whenever merchandise uses the term "Majin Buu" for only Fat Buu while Super Buu and Kid Buu get those form specific designations. If they're going to use "Super Buu" and "Kid Buu", I would prefer that they use "Fat Buu" for the fat one since they're all "Majin Buu", not just the fat one.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Dec 07, 2018 4:53 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:Yeah his argument hinges on Goku and friends are good people who do what’s right so therefore they’re not capable of short sightedness or hubris.
Ehhh... I hesitate to get involved in a debate I'm not a part of for no other reason than one of my works is being used as a crux of someone's argument. However, I do find this a misleading and reductive analysis of what I say in that video. And, hey, it's difficult to pare down a 22-minute video into a single-sentence summary. But that ain't it.
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zDBZ
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by zDBZ » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:40 pm

MasenkoHA wrote:
zDBZ wrote:[
Goku desiring fights to test his skills isn't compatible with him being a basically good person
And yet his desire to test his skills and him being a good-natured person have been part of his character since the very beginning.
I...never denied that.

But wanting to test his strength by fighting someone at their max is consistent with his character
The inconsistency is in his abrupt, unexplained change of mind, not in the fact he wants to do that, though if it weren't for the Super Saiyan state exacerbating Goku's aggression, rage, and battle lust, I would say that it would be a questionable decision, if not inconsistent.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Dragon Ball Gus » Fri Dec 07, 2018 5:42 pm

The fact that the Universe 6 Saiyans didn't appear in Dragon Ball Super Broly. I mean dude, this movie is all about Saiyans! And considering they're (obviously) Saiyans, why couldn't they appear?! Look, I know a lot of Gohan fans are upset that he didn't get to appear in the movie, and I didn't mind it because I figured that this movie was focusing on full blooded Saiyans, and he's a Half Saiyan, so if he didn't appear in the movie, I wouldn't mind it. The Universe 6 Saiyans, however, are full blooded Saiyans. So it would've made sense for them to appear in the movie. But NOPE! They aren't. And that truly grinds my gears.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Shaddy » Fri Dec 07, 2018 6:17 pm

The Broly movie is about the history of the Universe 7 saiyans, and their downfall and change as a result of Frieza and the like, and how all that reflects on Broly as a person who's entered the game so late and in such a different manner. Universe 6's only real similarity with U7 is that it does indeed have Saiyans and versions of Broly and Freeza. They're not tied into the actual Broly, Bardock, King Vegeta or Frieza at all for the most part, so including them wouldn't really do anything to enhance that theme.

Plus if they did, they'd probably contrast how things went with Frost in their universe, and I don't like it when the series tries to treat Frost as anything other than a joke.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by ABED » Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:18 pm

The inconsistency is in his abrupt, unexplained change of mind, not in the fact he wants to do that, though if it weren't for the Super Saiyan state exacerbating Goku's aggression, rage, and battle lust, I would say that it would be a questionable decision, if not inconsistent.
It's not inconsistent. At that point, Goku's in complete control of his emotions and the battle. Hell, he even has control of the transformation and can turn it off and on at will.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Dbzfan94 » Sun Dec 09, 2018 7:39 pm

Dragon Ball Gus wrote:The fact that the Universe 6 Saiyans didn't appear in Dragon Ball Super Broly. I mean dude, this movie is all about Saiyans! And considering they're (obviously) Saiyans, why couldn't they appear?! Look, I know a lot of Gohan fans are upset that he didn't get to appear in the movie, and I didn't mind it because I figured that this movie was focusing on full blooded Saiyans, and he's a Half Saiyan, so if he didn't appear in the movie, I wouldn't mind it. The Universe 6 Saiyans, however, are full blooded Saiyans. So it would've made sense for them to appear in the movie. But NOPE! They aren't. And that truly grinds my gears.
Why would they? They have no business or connection to the story of U7 or the U7 Saiyans.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:32 pm

When people think that Wrathful is the 'canon' version off SSJ4 and that Wrathful is related to LSSJ...……...
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by PFM18 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 10:01 pm

Hulk10 wrote:When people think that Wrathful is the 'canon' version off SSJ4 and that Wrathful is related to LSSJ...……...
What the hell is "Wrathful"?

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:26 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Hulk10 wrote:When people think that Wrathful is the 'canon' version off SSJ4 and that Wrathful is related to LSSJ...……...
What the hell is "Wrathful"?
Check this out https://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Wrathful. I don't understand how Broly can access it if he doesn't have a tail if its a utilization of the Great Ape power.

I may have already said this but it really bugs me when people look down on me for claiming that SSJ4 is as strong as SSJB. And someone on this very site did just that...…. :evil: He said that my suggestion that GT adult Goku being as strong as TOP Goku is absurd...…..

And I don't hate the Wrathful form its dragon ball wikia I hate. And I also don't like it when people who disagree with me are rude in their disagreements.
Last edited by Hulk10 on Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:38 pm

You might want to change that "I hate Wrathful" or whatever into "I hate dragonball wikia" because that is mostly on them. I'm not an avid visitor to that site but I heard that the site stacks lies and misinformation like bricks. You should avoid reading it if you dont want to get pissed off and I dont say that unkindly or in a "lol you got triggered" way.
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19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:42 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:You might want to change that "I hate Wrathful" or whatever into "I hate dragonball wikia" because that is mostly on them. I'm not an avid visitor to that site but I heard that the site stacks lies and misinformation like bricks. You should avoid reading it if you dont want to get pissed off and I dont say that unkindly or in a "lol you got triggered" way.
Hmmm you know that's not a bad idea. But the site does have some good info. But your advice is sound. :think:
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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Cure Dragon 255 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 1:53 pm

Yeah. Luckily you are on Kanzenshuu. And it is an awesome Dragon Ball resource, all in English! I mean sure you COULD think its too biased towards the original Japanese version (I dont. Its just that its the most focused on it for being the original). But its all accurate and all objective and its in English. You could use it instead.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote:I will not be satisfied until my pessimism crushes your spirit.
90sDBZ wrote:
Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:44 pm
19 years ago I was rushing home from school to watch DBZ on Cartoon Network, and today I've rushed home from work to watch DBS on Pop. I guess it's true the more things change the more they stay the same. :lol:

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by Hulk10 » Sat Dec 15, 2018 8:57 pm

Cure Dragon 255 wrote:Yeah. Luckily you are on Kanzenshuu. And it is an awesome Dragon Ball resource, all in English! I mean sure you COULD think its too biased towards the original Japanese version (I dont. Its just that its the most focused on it for being the original). But its all accurate and all objective and its in English. You could use it instead.
Kanzenshuu doesn't seem to have as much individual info but at least its not crazy like that wikia is. Though its still frustrating that its hard to back your views.
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The arrogance of man is thinking that we are in control of our destiny. Let them fight. -Dr. Ishiro Serizawa to Admiral William Stenz.

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Re: Things that grind your gears

Post by PFM18 » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:50 am

Hulk10 wrote:
Cure Dragon 255 wrote:You might want to change that "I hate Wrathful" or whatever into "I hate dragonball wikia" because that is mostly on them. I'm not an avid visitor to that site but I heard that the site stacks lies and misinformation like bricks. You should avoid reading it if you dont want to get pissed off and I dont say that unkindly or in a "lol you got triggered" way.
Hmmm you know that's not a bad idea. But the site does have some good info. But your advice is sound. :think:
It should really ok nly be used for basic information that you may have forgotten or may want a refresher on. If you seek in-depth information about DB, then DB Wiki isn't the place go go.

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