Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[zarmack]

Merged Zamasu himself flat out states that he needs to get stronger after the fight with Goku, that's why he use the lightning on himself and gets the purple arm. If he didn't get any stronger from that then Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have felt the need to fuse.

At no point in the conversation the characters say something among the lines of "That power up Zamasu did made him too strong, we need fusion to beat him", or any line even mentioning he got stronger, and the way the conversation goes, we have Gowasu saying that Zamasu was becoming unstable and that hitting him harder would help to defeat him, and then Goku suggests the fusion otherwise they can't beat him, which makes sense considering he broke his arms with that kamehameha and he didn't seriously hurt Zamasu, so basicaly it seems they would have tried fusion to deal with him anyways, since, again, no point in the dialogue is suggested he got stronger, so again, how much stronger he got is pretty moot.

If Merged Zamasu didn't get that much stronger (which they could sense easily) then they wouldn't have even suggest fusing. Logic 101

There is literally no reason to assume Merged Zamasu didn't get much stronger after gaining the purple arm. If anything, Merged Zamasu at full power in the anime should have been somewhat stronger than Vegito Blue, since Goku Black in his prime was stronger than both SSB Goku/Vegeta added together and Future Zamasu was at least RoF SSB level in power.

[ZombieVito]

If Vegetto blue and Broly we’re both questioned to have possibly surpassed beerus and we see that Gogeta despite needing blue was still easily handling Broly then that indeed does imply that Goku and Vegetas gains were quite substantial...

So you just choose to ignore what Piccolo said in the Boo arc?

Small gains make for big gains once fused.

[Nevaeh]

All this just highlights the monstrous boost Goku gets from UI

If Omen >= Beerus then UI is roughly the equivalent of Goku fusing and stacking Blue on top

[Kenneth La Torre]

All this just highlights the monstrous boost Goku gets from UI

If Omen >= Beerus then UI is roughly the equivalent of Goku fusing and stacking Blue on top

Pretty sure the magazine talks about completed UI. As it mentions goku Shinning silver, despite showing a UI omen picture.

I doubt they'll have UI Goku outright be far above beerus.

[PFM18]

All this just highlights the monstrous boost Goku gets from UI

If Omen >= Beerus then UI is roughly the equivalent of Goku fusing and stacking Blue on top

Pretty sure the magazine talks about completed UI. As it mentions goku Shinning silver, despite showing a UI omen picture.

I doubt they'll have UI Goku outright be far above beerus.

Goku's eyes shine silver, that's what defines UI Omen/UI aesthetically. There's the picture of Omen right there for a reason

[Kenneth La Torre]

All this just highlights the monstrous boost Goku gets from UI

If Omen >= Beerus then UI is roughly the equivalent of Goku fusing and stacking Blue on top

Pretty sure the magazine talks about completed UI. As it mentions goku Shinning silver, despite showing a UI omen picture.

I doubt they'll have UI Goku outright be far above beerus.

Goku's eyes shine silver, that's what defines UI Omen/UI aesthetically. There's the picture of Omen right there for a reason

Was the mention of eyes. I thoughthink it said he shines silver, not his eyes.

[PFM18]

Pretty sure the magazine talks about completed UI. As it mentions goku Shinning silver, despite showing a UI omen picture.

I doubt they'll have UI Goku outright be far above beerus.

Goku's eyes shine silver, that's what defines UI Omen/UI aesthetically. There's the picture of Omen right there for a reason

Was the mention of eyes. I thoughthink it said he shines silver, not his eyes.

It doesn't need to mention his eyes. As far as "shining silver" goes, it could be referring to his eyes because it is the most defining characteristic.

[Jmass97]

If Vegetto blue and Broly we’re both questioned to have possibly surpassed beerus and we see that Gogeta despite needing blue was still easily handling Broly then that indeed does imply that Goku and Vegetas gains were quite substantial...

So you just choose to ignore what Piccolo said in the Boo arc?

Small gains make for big gains once fused.

I’m not ignoring it lol it just doesn’t straight up prove that they haven’t made substantial gains. Simple. I just doubt that after getting their butts kicked in the top plus them breaking their limits multiple times plus them getting zenkais after the top then training after that would only result in a small increase. If anything it should be a decent increase. I’m not saying the boost has to be huge I just think it’s more than what you’re making it out to be.

[ZombieVito]

I’m not ignoring it lol it just doesn’t straight up prove that they haven’t made substantial gains. Simple. I just doubt that after getting their butts kicked in the top plus them breaking their limits multiple times plus them getting zenkais after the top then training after that would only result in a small increase. If anything it should be a decent increase. I’m not saying the boost has to be huge I just think it’s more than what you’re making it out to be.

They can't get zenkais anymore and they didn't get stronger during the ToP, they just got higher forms.

[Jmass97]

I’m not ignoring it lol it just doesn’t straight up prove that they haven’t made substantial gains. Simple. I just doubt that after getting their butts kicked in the top plus them breaking their limits multiple times plus them getting zenkais after the top then training after that would only result in a small increase. If anything it should be a decent increase. I’m not saying the boost has to be huge I just think it’s more than what you’re making it out to be.

They can't get zenkais anymore and they didn't get stronger during the ToP, they just got higher forms.

I’ll just agree to disagree lol

[ZombieVito]

I’ll just agree to disagree lol

We have Daizenshuu guides and the manga stating they can't get zenkai's anymore.

There's also not a single statement that said they grew stronger in their base forms. Only in UI and SSBE.

[Miracles]

I’ll just agree to disagree lol

We have Daizenshuu guides and the manga stating they can't get zenkai's anymore.

There's also not a single statement that said they grew stronger in their base forms. Only in UI and SSBE.

This is true for the manga. However I don't remember the anime stating such? Black was getting Zenkai's solely due to a Saiyan body.
Even Black stated Goku will be back stronger after their second bout when having tea with Zamas.
The Saiyans overall ability to grow after battle was a major plot point in the Zamas arc.

Then we get the TOP where Goku uses Blue on Kale then later a fatigued red Goku is able to box with a stronger Kale.
This is why fans feel they have to try and make sense of this farce with headcannons like "Goku was holding back" or "his overall power grew during the TOP."

[ssj3kakarot]

I know this particular topic was discussed a lot back when Ep 90 hit the streets but I wanted to get everyones thought on where exactly Gohan matches up against Goku.

Taking only episodes 1-90 into consideration, and after watching Ep 90 again in both japanese and english dub ( which is gross what they changed in the translations, or straight up just add new dialog), I'm still a firm believer that Gohan is drastically below Blue Goku.

The way they portray Goku in this fight is that his ssj2 presumably is able to throw hands with a full power Gohan( Gohan's own words). We all know that the gap from ss2 to ss3 is a good power increase, but the jump from ss2 to Blue is astronomical. To me, it appears that they needed to give Gohan some shine because he just got his Mojo back, but they did it at the expense of Gokus highest form. It screams fanservice, as does the Witch craft Roshi vs Goku fight. It's like the Blue Goku vs Krillin kamehameha battle. Never should have happened. I think Goku was definitely surprised by Gohan's ability, but by no means does that make Gohan Blue level. That's worse than the 4 month zero-2-hero workout program Freeza went on. I'm all for Gohan being relevant, hell, anyone for that matter. But do it the right way, and don't do it at the expense of other things that we were lead to believe are these crazy new tiers of power, just to be laughed at by Piccolo retraining Gohan's latent ability. Perfect example : Whis takes Gohan to the ROSAT and comes out like a boss! I can buy that cup of tea!

I know many people are avid believers that this episode proves Gohan is at least close to blue level because Goku went SSBKK and Gohan traded some blows with Blue Goku.

Goku also didnt go SS3 against Vegeta because he didn't want to crush his pride.

[PFM18]

I'm still a firm believer that Gohan is drastically below Blue Goku.

It depends how you define "close." It's pretty ambiguous the way you describe it, but yeah, I am also of the belief that SSB Goku>>Ultimate Gohan in the anime.

[Lukmendes]

I know this particular topic was discussed a lot back when Ep 90 hit the streets but I wanted to get everyones thought on where exactly Gohan matches up against Goku.

Taking only episodes 1-90 into consideration, and after watching Ep 90 again in both japanese and english dub ( which is gross what they changed in the translations, or straight up just add new dialog), I'm still a firm believer that Gohan is drastically below Blue Goku.

The way they portray Goku in this fight is that his ssj2 presumably is able to throw hands with a full power Gohan( Gohan's own words). We all know that the gap from ss2 to ss3 is a good power increase, but the jump from ss2 to Blue is astronomical. To me, it appears that they needed to give Gohan some shine because he just got his Mojo back, but they did it at the expense of Gokus highest form. It screams fanservice, as does the Witch craft Roshi vs Goku fight. It's like the Blue Goku vs Krillin kamehameha battle. Never should have happened. I think Goku was definitely surprised by Gohan's ability, but by no means does that make Gohan Blue level. That's worse than the 4 month zero-2-hero workout program Freeza went on. I'm all for Gohan being relevant, hell, anyone for that matter. But do it the right way, and don't do it at the expense of other things that we were lead to believe are these crazy new tiers of power, just to be laughed at by Piccolo retraining Gohan's latent ability. Perfect example : Whis takes Gohan to the ROSAT and comes out like a boss! I can buy that cup of tea!

I know many people are avid believers that this episode proves Gohan is at least close to blue level because Goku went SSBKK and Gohan traded some blows with Blue Goku.

Goku also didnt go SS3 against Vegeta because he didn't want to crush his pride.

He also didn't go SS3 against Vegeta 'cause he wanted to save it, since SS3 makes his time in the living world shorter.

Anyways, in hindsight, it's annoying they tried to hype up Gohan as super strong and also chosen to be the leader of the team, and then he didn't do much in ToP itself, like, just that guy from U10, the Namekians from U6 and that battle against Dyspo as his "big" fights, which the first two looked fine, the Dyspo fight was just lame-looking, and the tournament didn't do anything to show that he was super strong, he was even getting his ass kicked by that Yardrat guy, sure, he was holding back according to Freeza, but it's weird he'd do that to begin with... Guess at least he had his moments and wasn't as bad as Krillin/Tien/Piccolo.

[Hugo Boss]

I think Goku was definitely surprised by Gohan's ability, but by no means does that make Gohan Blue level.

That episode was ambiguous in this regard, but the fight against Toppo should clarify where Gohan, and by extension No.17, stands among god level fighters.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Rivals =/= "equals"

People made this mistake with gohan in comp with blue goku and ss kafla with the spirit bomb. It means you are in the same general range of power.

E.G Ultimate gohan could be 50% of ssb goku and still "rivals" would fit. He's strong enough to do damage against top tiers if they let their guard down/worn down but in a fair 1 on 1 he's got no shot.

Compare ssb vegeta in episode 112-115 vs toppo to gohan vs toppo in 122-123, you can see the significant gap

[PFM18]

Rivals =/= "equals"

People made this mistake with gohan in comp with blue goku and ss kafla with the spirit bomb. It means you are in the same general range of power.

E.G Ultimate gohan could be 50% of ssb goku and still "rivals" would fit. He's strong enough to do damage against top tiers if they let their guard down/worn down but in a fair 1 on 1 he's got no shot.

Compare ssb vegeta in episode 112-115 vs toppo to gohan vs toppo in 122-123, you can see the significant gap

Well said. The fact that Gohan is unable to do any sort of damage against Toppo and is clearly outmatched highlights the difference in power between him and SSB Vegeta.

I'm not sure what do with Kefka though. I go back and forth on:

1. Rivals was meant loosely, and she's a fair amount weaker than the Genki Dama, but is still on the same level as it. She caught Goku off-guard when she snuck behind him and KO'ed him in SSBKKx20.
2. Rivals was meant literally, and she was as strong as the Spirit Bomb and so was able to overpower SSBKKx20 Goku. Before that point she was losing to SSBKKx20 because her power hax hadnt "kick in" enough yet and she didnt grow enough to overpower him until moments later in the fight.(It was stated her power was growing in the fight.)

[Jmass97]

I’ll just agree to disagree lol

We have Daizenshuu guides and the manga stating they can't get zenkai's anymore.

There's also not a single statement that said they grew stronger in their base forms. Only in UI and SSBE.

This is true for the manga. However I don't remember the anime stating such? Black was getting Zenkai's solely due to a Saiyan body.
Even Black stated Goku will be back stronger after their second bout when having tea with Zamas.
The Saiyans overall ability to grow after battle was a major plot point in the Zamas arc.

Then we get the TOP where Goku uses Blue on Kale then later a fatigued red Goku is able to box with a stronger Kale.
This is why fans feel they have to try and make sense of this farce with headcannons like "Goku was holding back" or "his overall power grew during the TOP."

Exactly! I’m going by what is shown and stated in the show. I don’t recall any guides ever stating that they no longer get zenkais and the manga even says that Goku and Vegeta grew stronger after the battle with Broly so there’s also that.

[shadd21]

Now that the movie is out, can anyone confirm whether or not MUI Goku was said to be below Beerus?