"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[zarmack]

From a writing standpoint Toyotaro's TOP was better than the anime's.

I couldn't disagree more. I also don't see how this is relevant either.

It's relevant cause both TOP's are finally finished. Also, yes the manga's TOP was better written due to situations having reasons behind them. The way Goku obtains UI, there was no friendship boosts, and simple things like giving reasons why a tired Goku and Vegeta could handle Jiren towards the end. Due to that, the new arc will be just as coherent cause Toyotaro likes to keep continuity with classic Dragonball.

None of those are good reasons why the manga ToP is better. In fact, the ToP is the most blatant example of the manga being worse overall, especially in terms of character writing and fight scenes.

[Miracles]

The way Goku obtains UI

....You mean by fucking watching Roshi do it? The same guy who Goku has surpassed in knowledge, skill and power decades ago? That scene is an embarrassment to this franchise.

It was embarrassing how youtubers made up that whole roshi ultra instinct out of 2 spoiled pics .
It’s sad that people like you still think that it was UI , and keep the o.m.g reactions after the chapter was full released , when it was clear and stated as a far cry from that technique. All your o.m.g about roshi was just 3 panels tricking him , with a purpose, and real fast putting roshi in his place like the insect he is fighting talking against jiren .
That could be embarrassing.... yes , jiren is the beast of the arc , but don’t pretend your lovely anime didn’t have any embarrassing moments , it has a lot , just talking about roshi he pulled 3 mafubas , one of them taking vegeta , when he’s supposed to die just at once ... and that’s not even in the top 10 of anime embarrassing moments .

Yeah, mostly those who are bias pretend that Roshi was using UI. When the manga made it clear that he used "similar principles" of UI but a "far cry" from the real thing.
They don't understand that Roshi gave Goku a starting point to access UI. When Goku applied those teachings he outshines Roshi by actually using the real thing showing that he is still superior to his former teacher.

I couldn't disagree more. I also don't see how this is relevant either.

It's relevant cause both TOP's are finally finished. Also, yes the manga's TOP was better written due to situations having reasons behind them. The way Goku obtains UI, there was no friendship boosts, and simple things like giving reasons why a tired Goku and Vegeta could handle Jiren towards the end. Due to that, the new arc will be just as coherent cause Toyotaro likes to keep continuity with classic Dragonball.

None of those are good reasons why the manga ToP is better. In fact, the ToP is the most blatant example of the manga being worse overall, especially in terms of character writing and fight scenes.

Fight scenes were nothing spectacular but your wrong on the writing. We didn't have things like 17 surviving an explosion cause he was lucky but the manga wrote a better situation for 17 that gave reasons which go back to Dragonball. They are indeed very good justifications of how the manga from a story standpoint did better than the anime.

[prince212]

In fact, the ToP is the most blatant example of the manga being worse overall, especially in terms of character writing and fight scenes.

-Character writing is the main “good thing” in the manga i.m.o . Freeza tricking frost , kale caulifla having some personalities , jiren and his reasons to be the way he is .... a17 having brains etc ..
- fight scenes , yeah , animation has to be so bad to be worse than a manga in that department t.b.h , anime was worthed just to watch some fight scenes , I agree with that .

[Rakurai]

The way Goku obtains UI

....You mean by fucking watching Roshi do it? The same guy who Goku has surpassed in knowledge, skill and power decades ago? That scene is an embarrassment to this franchise.

It was embarrassing how youtubers made up that whole roshi ultra instinct out of 2 spoiled pics .
It’s sad that people like you still think that it was UI , and keep the o.m.g reactions after the chapter was full released , when it was clear and stated as a far cry from that technique. All your o.m.g about roshi was just 3 panels tricking him , with a purpose, and real fast putting roshi in his place like the insect he is fighting talking against jiren .
That could be embarrassing.... yes , jiren is the beast of the arc , but don’t pretend your lovely anime didn’t have any embarrassing moments , it has a lot , just talking about roshi he pulled 3 mafubas , one of them taking vegeta , when he’s supposed to die just at once ... and that’s not even in the top 10 of anime embarrassing moments .

Yeah, mostly those who are bias pretend that Roshi was using UI. When the manga made it clear that he used "similar principles" of UI but a "far cry" from the real thing.
They don't understand that Roshi gave Goku a starting point to access UI. When Goku applied those teachings he outshines Roshi by actually using the real thing showing that he is still superior to his former teacher.

It's relevant cause both TOP's are finally finished. Also, yes the manga's TOP was better written due to situations having reasons behind them. The way Goku obtains UI, there was no friendship boosts, and simple things like giving reasons why a tired Goku and Vegeta could handle Jiren towards the end. Due to that, the new arc will be just as coherent cause Toyotaro likes to keep continuity with classic Dragonball.

None of those are good reasons why the manga ToP is better. In fact, the ToP is the most blatant example of the manga being worse overall, especially in terms of character writing and fight scenes.

Fight scenes were nothing spectacular but your wrong on the writing. We didn't have things like 17 surviving an explosion cause he was lucky but the manga wrote a better situation for 17 that gave reasons which go back to Dragonball. They are indeed very good justifications of how the manga from a story standpoint did better than the anime.

While I find UI in the manga to be executed better and more reasonable than in the anime, Goku using UI is just another wasted concept in the long run.

The new arc has made it clear that he can't access it whenever he wants, if all he had to do was enter the previous mindset he was in during the ToP.

It would've been much better if it wasn't presented as a transformation with different hair color to distinguish it, but rather how Roshi, Whis, & Beerus use it.

[zarmack]

In fact, the ToP is the most blatant example of the manga being worse overall, especially in terms of character writing and fight scenes.

-Character writing is the main “good thing” in the manga i.m.o . Freeza tricking frost , kale caulifla having some personalities , jiren and his reasons to be the way he is .... a17 having brains etc ..
- fight scenes , yeah , animation has to be so bad to be worse than a manga in that department t.b.h , anime was worthed just to watch some fight scenes , I agree with that .

With the exception of Jiren, character writing is worst thing about the manga. Kale and Caulifla in the manga have significantly less personality than in the anime (and the most interesting thing about the 2, their relationship, is absent in the manga) Freeza tricking Frost happened in the anime too (with the manga featuring a dumber version which involves Freeza knocking of 2 of his own teammates), 17 doesn't do anything clever in the manga (with the manga's version of his sacrifice being random and retarded), Vegeta throwing a temper-tantrum to unlock SSBE, Goku forgetting martial arts lessons he already mastered in Early DB just for some forced-development with Roshi, nearly everything about the manga versions of Goku Black and Hit, etc.

[zarmack]

It was embarrassing how youtubers made up that whole roshi ultra instinct out of 2 spoiled pics .
It’s sad that people like you still think that it was UI , and keep the o.m.g reactions after the chapter was full released , when it was clear and stated as a far cry from that technique. All your o.m.g about roshi was just 3 panels tricking him , with a purpose, and real fast putting roshi in his place like the insect he is fighting talking against jiren .
That could be embarrassing.... yes , jiren is the beast of the arc , but don’t pretend your lovely anime didn’t have any embarrassing moments , it has a lot , just talking about roshi he pulled 3 mafubas , one of them taking vegeta , when he’s supposed to die just at once ... and that’s not even in the top 10 of anime embarrassing moments .

Yeah, mostly those who are bias pretend that Roshi was using UI. When the manga made it clear that he used "similar principles" of UI but a "far cry" from the real thing.
They don't understand that Roshi gave Goku a starting point to access UI. When Goku applied those teachings he outshines Roshi by actually using the real thing showing that he is still superior to his former teacher.

None of those are good reasons why the manga ToP is better. In fact, the ToP is the most blatant example of the manga being worse overall, especially in terms of character writing and fight scenes.

Fight scenes were nothing spectacular but your wrong on the writing. We didn't have things like 17 surviving an explosion cause he was lucky but the manga wrote a better situation for 17 that gave reasons which go back to Dragonball. They are indeed very good justifications of how the manga from a story standpoint did better than the anime.

While I find UI in the manga to be executed better and more reasonable than in the anime, Goku using UI is just another wasted concept in the long run.

The new arc has made it clear that he can't access it whenever he wants, if all he had to do was enter the previous mindset he was in during the ToP.

It would've been much better if it wasn't presented as a transformation with different hair color to distinguish it, but rather how Roshi, Whis, & Beerus use it.

UI in the manga is reduced to another useless transformation, and the way Goku gets it in the manga involves him relearning things he already mastered back in Early DB. There's no way in hell that its better executed in the manga, whereas at least in the anime both versions of UI actually matter and actually gets shit accomplished.

[Rakurai]

UI in the manga is reduced to another useless transformation, and the way Goku gets it in the manga involves him relearning things he already mastered back in Early DB. There's no way in hell that its better executed in the manga, whereas at least in the anime both versions of UI actually matter and actually gets shit accomplished.

UI is reduced to another unreliable, inaccessible transformation, both anime and manga, right after the ToP.

It is executed better in the manga for reasons I've already stated here:

Spoiler:

"Before people jump the gun on Muten Roshi using "UI" and complaining about it, I wanna say how much I love this. Not because of favoritism for Roshi or humor for memes/jokes, but because of the narrative at work here.

In reality, Toyotaro is using an established character Goku not only admires and respects, but loves like his own grandpa, to show him how to use a real-life martial arts concept, also known in DB as Ultra Instinct. The reality is that "your body moving on its own" is a traditional martial arts concept that actually exists in the real world. Ultra Instinct, or the principles of it, is basically the DB version of real world martial art.

Roshi, Karin, Popo, Kami, King Kai, and finally Whis. Goku's teachers over the course of this series. All of them have mentioned in the past of using this technique in some form or fashion. Goku though he has trained under them, has never really "mastered" what the essence of what they wanted to get across. Throughout all of DB, back then and even now, Goku has solely relied on strength through his genes and heritage. He's pushed the SSJ limits countless times. The only thing left for him is SSJ4, but obviously that's out of the question here. He's got god ki and combined SSJ with it for more power. He's already in the ball field with the big boys, he's GoD candidate material. The story tells us the only thing left for Goku and Vegeta is UI, a technique that Whis twice in the manga tells them can allow them to overcome any obstacle and threat. Whether it be Beerus who's still absurdly more powerful than either of them or the next opponent (Jiren) they face. Whis' introduction and telling them about how Beerus is working to master it foreshadows Goku learning UI.

But right now Goku needs to overcome his current wall. He needs to beat Jiren. He wants more power, something that he's constantly pushed throughout his entire life and, for better or for worse, introduced all the powerscaling banter. It's the standard way he's approached every single enemy ever since Raditz first arrived on Earth. He's essentially forgotten the words of his teachers. With Muten Roshi there directly overseeing his performance, he takes a moment to remind Goku the original teachings that every master he's had has preached, but Goku never took to heart.

Toyotaro used Jiren on purpose. One could say the manga has the luxury of foresight. He knows that Jiren is the largest threat because the anime never showed us a larger threat all the way up until the end (ignore Broly for a moment in that regard). Jiren and Roshi represent the largest power gap in the series. This is intentional. If by using the principles of UI, Roshi could dance Jiren for even a single second, that is proof in the pudding that if Goku, someone much closer to Jiren, were to master it, he would be unstoppable juggernaut even in the face of Jiren, a man stronger than a GoD. It isn't until Goku attempts to do what Roshi showed him does he unlock "Omen," which isn't even the true UI technique but closer to it than what Roshi had.

When Roshi barely dodges a rib shot and a mustache shot, Jiren is not by any means trying to kill him. And when he finally gets serious, how does he overcome Roshi's flimsy UI? He lightly neckchops him and it sends him flying out. Neck chopping btw in Dragon Ball is code for lovingly tapping someone to get rid of them. F. Gohan did it to F. Trunks, Vegeta did it to Trunks, and now Jiren did it to Roshi, who was mildly annoying him. But if Roshi of all people could even mildly annoy Jiren? That's a feat worthy of godly praise greater than no other.

Toyotaro is actually trying to come full circle with a technique foreshadowed even before Whis mentioned it. Contrived? Maybe. But frankly it's not a stretch of imagination by DB standards of plot, and it helps doing something else for a start.

So either you can have all of that... or Goku absorbs his own Spirit bomb. Your choice."

The method of attaining it is far more sensible than some Toei movie callback which shouldn't have even occurred in the state Goku was in. Furthermore, UI in the anime was less important than UI Omen itself, which had a greater role and more screentime. But in the end, UI served the exact same purpose as in the manga, which was to wear Jiren out.

Spoiler:

Also, this is off-topic, but your sig is frankly offensive and as ignorant as you can get.

"98% of Kanzenshuu-goers have not kissed a girl. If you're one of the 2% that has, copy and paste this into your signature."

What's the purpose of this? To affirm some kind of insecure masculinity? Not sure if I can continue to discuss with you with that kind of stupid BS attached to your profile.

[Miracles]

It was embarrassing how youtubers made up that whole roshi ultra instinct out of 2 spoiled pics .
It’s sad that people like you still think that it was UI , and keep the o.m.g reactions after the chapter was full released , when it was clear and stated as a far cry from that technique. All your o.m.g about roshi was just 3 panels tricking him , with a purpose, and real fast putting roshi in his place like the insect he is fighting talking against jiren .
That could be embarrassing.... yes , jiren is the beast of the arc , but don’t pretend your lovely anime didn’t have any embarrassing moments , it has a lot , just talking about roshi he pulled 3 mafubas , one of them taking vegeta , when he’s supposed to die just at once ... and that’s not even in the top 10 of anime embarrassing moments .

Yeah, mostly those who are bias pretend that Roshi was using UI. When the manga made it clear that he used "similar principles" of UI but a "far cry" from the real thing.
They don't understand that Roshi gave Goku a starting point to access UI. When Goku applied those teachings he outshines Roshi by actually using the real thing showing that he is still superior to his former teacher.

None of those are good reasons why the manga ToP is better. In fact, the ToP is the most blatant example of the manga being worse overall, especially in terms of character writing and fight scenes.

Fight scenes were nothing spectacular but your wrong on the writing. We didn't have things like 17 surviving an explosion cause he was lucky but the manga wrote a better situation for 17 that gave reasons which go back to Dragonball. They are indeed very good justifications of how the manga from a story standpoint did better than the anime.

While I find UI in the manga to be executed better and more reasonable than in the anime, Goku using UI is just another wasted concept in the long run.

The new arc has made it clear that he can't access it whenever he wants, if all he had to do was enter the previous mindset he was in during the ToP.

It would've been much better if it wasn't presented as a transformation with different hair color to distinguish it, but rather how Roshi, Whis, & Beerus use it.

Well, Even tho Goku tapped into UI he still couldn't maintain it. Whis tried to get Goku and Vegeta into such a state of mind for UI after all this time. Whis didn't know Goku had former teachings that was similar to UI in the past. However, Roshi knew he did and because of that recall Goku was able to tap into it. During the TOP, Whis stated Goku still lacks training after attaining UI. After losing UI Goku confirms he needs more training. He just confirmed that again last chapter too. Ultra Instinct is that special, so they don't want Goku to just spam the thing all over the place. It's something he has to gradually learn.

[zarmack]

UI in the manga is reduced to another useless transformation, and the way Goku gets it in the manga involves him relearning things he already mastered back in Early DB. There's no way in hell that its better executed in the manga, whereas at least in the anime both versions of UI actually matter and actually gets shit accomplished.

UI is reduced to another unreliable, inaccessible transformation, both anime and manga, right after the ToP.

It is executed better in the manga for reasons I've already stated here:

Spoiler:

"Before people jump the gun on Muten Roshi using "UI" and complaining about it, I wanna say how much I love this. Not because of favoritism for Roshi or humor for memes/jokes, but because of the narrative at work here.

In reality, Toyotaro is using an established character Goku not only admires and respects, but loves like his own grandpa, to show him how to use a real-life martial arts concept, also known in DB as Ultra Instinct. The reality is that "your body moving on its own" is a traditional martial arts concept that actually exists in the real world. Ultra Instinct, or the principles of it, is basically the DB version of real world martial art.

Roshi, Karin, Popo, Kami, King Kai, and finally Whis. Goku's teachers over the course of this series. All of them have mentioned in the past of using this technique in some form or fashion. Goku though he has trained under them, has never really "mastered" what the essence of what they wanted to get across. Throughout all of DB, back then and even now, Goku has solely relied on strength through his genes and heritage. He's pushed the SSJ limits countless times. The only thing left for him is SSJ4, but obviously that's out of the question here. He's got god ki and combined SSJ with it for more power. He's already in the ball field with the big boys, he's GoD candidate material. The story tells us the only thing left for Goku and Vegeta is UI, a technique that Whis twice in the manga tells them can allow them to overcome any obstacle and threat. Whether it be Beerus who's still absurdly more powerful than either of them or the next opponent (Jiren) they face. Whis' introduction and telling them about how Beerus is working to master it foreshadows Goku learning UI.

But right now Goku needs to overcome his current wall. He needs to beat Jiren. He wants more power, something that he's constantly pushed throughout his entire life and, for better or for worse, introduced all the powerscaling banter. It's the standard way he's approached every single enemy ever since Raditz first arrived on Earth. He's essentially forgotten the words of his teachers. With Muten Roshi there directly overseeing his performance, he takes a moment to remind Goku the original teachings that every master he's had has preached, but Goku never took to heart.

Toyotaro used Jiren on purpose. One could say the manga has the luxury of foresight. He knows that Jiren is the largest threat because the anime never showed us a larger threat all the way up until the end (ignore Broly for a moment in that regard). Jiren and Roshi represent the largest power gap in the series. This is intentional. If by using the principles of UI, Roshi could dance Jiren for even a single second, that is proof in the pudding that if Goku, someone much closer to Jiren, were to master it, he would be unstoppable juggernaut even in the face of Jiren, a man stronger than a GoD. It isn't until Goku attempts to do what Roshi showed him does he unlock "Omen," which isn't even the true UI technique but closer to it than what Roshi had.

When Roshi barely dodges a rib shot and a mustache shot, Jiren is not by any means trying to kill him. And when he finally gets serious, how does he overcome Roshi's flimsy UI? He lightly neckchops him and it sends him flying out. Neck chopping btw in Dragon Ball is code for lovingly tapping someone to get rid of them. F. Gohan did it to F. Trunks, Vegeta did it to Trunks, and now Jiren did it to Roshi, who was mildly annoying him. But if Roshi of all people could even mildly annoy Jiren? That's a feat worthy of godly praise greater than no other.

Toyotaro is actually trying to come full circle with a technique foreshadowed even before Whis mentioned it. Contrived? Maybe. But frankly it's not a stretch of imagination by DB standards of plot, and it helps doing something else for a start.

So either you can have all of that... or Goku absorbs his own Spirit bomb. Your choice."

The method of attaining it is far more sensible than some Toei movie callback which shouldn't have even occurred in the state Goku was in. Furthermore, UI in the anime was less important than UI Omen itself, which had a greater role and more screentime. But in the end, UI served the exact same purpose as in the manga, which was to wear Jiren out.

Spoiler:

Also, this is off-topic, but your sig is frankly offensive and as ignorant as you can get.

"98% of Kanzenshuu-goers have not kissed a girl. If you're one of the 2% that has, copy and paste this into your signature."

What's the purpose of this? To affirm some kind of insecure masculinity? Not sure if I can continue to discuss with you with that kind of stupid BS attached to your profile.

Spoiler:

1. Your post completely ignores my main criticism of the manga version: The fact that it has Roshi teaching Goku principles that he already learned and mastered all the way back in Early DB. In fact, Roshi since the 22nd TB arc made it clear that he has nothing more to teach Goku, since he's gone far ahead of him. The problem is that Toyotaro has Goku regress to a novice level fighter just give him some forced repeated development from Roshi.

Goku unlocking UI in the anime was basically a fight-or-flight response. Sure it seemed a bit random and little asspullish, but its better than what the manga did for the reasons above.

2. The quote on my sig is just a joke. I copied it because it was funny as hell lol. The fact that you and other members here got offended by it only makes it funnier and sort-of implies the joke has some basis in fact.

[Rakurai]

1. Your post completely ignores my main criticism of the manga version: The fact that it has Roshi teaching Goku principles that he already learned and mastered all the way back in Early DB. In fact, Roshi since the 22nd TB arc made it clear that he has nothing more to teach Goku, since he's gone far ahead of him. The problem is that Toyotaro has Goku regress to a novice level fighter just give him some forced repeated development from Roshi.

Goku unlocking UI in the anime was basically a fight-or-flight response. Sure it seemed a bit random and little asspullish, but its better than what the manga did for the reasons above.

2. The quote on my sig is just a joke. I copied it because it was funny as hell lol. The fact that you and other members here got offended by it only makes it funnier and sort-of implies the joke has some basis in fact.

1. My post as well as the manga addresses your criticism. Just by reading DBZ and a portion of DBS, it's clear as day where the powercreep went to, and it's certainly not technique or state of mind. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not present.

Fight or flight response? No it was a limit-breaking response, which I have no idea how that is supposed to grant one UI to begin with. And that is why it fails narratively.

2. So me getting offended by that makes me a suspect for your "joke" accusation? And btw it doesn't come off as a joke, especially since you have no emojis to even attempt to indicate it was one to begin with. And if you find this sort of humor funny then you're just a bully and straight-up jackass. That's how you come off. But you do you.

[zarmack]

1. Your post completely ignores my main criticism of the manga version: The fact that it has Roshi teaching Goku principles that he already learned and mastered all the way back in Early DB. In fact, Roshi since the 22nd TB arc made it clear that he has nothing more to teach Goku, since he's gone far ahead of him. The problem is that Toyotaro has Goku regress to a novice level fighter just give him some forced repeated development from Roshi.

Goku unlocking UI in the anime was basically a fight-or-flight response. Sure it seemed a bit random and little asspullish, but its better than what the manga did for the reasons above.

2. The quote on my sig is just a joke. I copied it because it was funny as hell lol. The fact that you and other members here got offended by it only makes it funnier and sort-of implies the joke has some basis in fact.

1. My post as well as the manga addresses your criticism. Just by reading DBZ and a portion of DBS, it's clear as day where the powercreep went to, and it's certainly not technique or state of mind. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's not present.

Fight or flight response? No it was a limit-breaking response, which I have no idea how that is supposed to grant one UI to begin with. And that is why it fails narratively.

2. So me getting offended by that makes me a suspect for your "joke" accusation? And btw it doesn't come off as a joke, especially since you have no emojis to even attempt to indicate it was one to begin with. And if you find this sort of humor funny then you're just a bully and straight-up jackass. That's how you come off. But you do you.

That's pure headcanon, and its clearly disproven by how Goku since at least the 22nd TB arc was already portrayed as being superior in technique and state-of-mind than Roshi, seeing how he would learn and master much of Roshi's skill set at a faster and easier rate than he did.

[batistabus]

Your post completely ignores my main criticism of the manga version: The fact that it has Roshi teaching Goku principles that he already learned and mastered all the way back in Early DB. In fact, Roshi since the 22nd TB arc made it clear that he has nothing more to teach Goku, since he's gone far ahead of him. The problem is that Toyotaro has Goku regress to a novice level fighter just give him some forced repeated development from Roshi.

Yes, Goku has already learned these things. That's why as soon as Kame-sen'nin criticizes Goku for his approach, he instantly realizes that he was wrong. He's just being nudged in the right direction. Remember the basics. This is a totally acceptable character moment, and one that might apply to anyone in real life who reaches a plateau when developing a skill. The fact that Kame-sen'nin's wisdom instigates this is really the only thing that justifies his inclusion in the tournament. In the anime, his only purpose is parlor tricks. They could've chosen Chaozu and gotten the same result.

I don't know why so many people seem to miss this. Well...yes, I do. It's because they get caught up in strength comparisons and become so worked up that they misinterpret what is happening on the page. The irony is that Kame-sen'nin isn't just talking to Goku, he's also talking to the audience. His lesson applies in a meta-sense to the direction of Dragon Ball and fan perceptions of the series.

Kale and Caulifla in the manga have significantly less personality than in the anime (and the most interesting thing about the 2, their relationship, is absent in the manga)

In the anime, Caulifla and Kale (especially) are one-note bait characters designed to appeal to Western fans. Its so blatant and shameless. Kale is the worst parts of Broly's personality packed into a cute girl. She's a pathetic, selfish, jealous coward who has no redeeming characteristics until she is encouraged by the girl she wants to impress. At least the original Broly (who I am no fan of) has tragedy to justify his behavior. Caulifla is obnoxious and immature, but not in a charming way like Toriyama often manages to pull off. Their romance (which I do believe was intended) is so shallow, dry, and unsatisfying that it makes Toriyama's romances look robust. They didn't have the guts nor the story-telling ability to pull it off properly, so the whole thing just feels like a totally wasted opportunity.

In the manga, Caulifla is much more balanced. She's confident, but not a jerk or a child. Her relationship with Cabba is much more reasonable and satisfying, and little things like her 180-degree reaction to a perceived compliment from Freeza keep her quirky and fun. I'm not even going to bother explaining manga Kale because literally anything would be preferable to the anime's interpretation. That being said, the fact that Toyotaro deviated so heavily from what was Toei's character to begin with is something I very much respect.

Ultra Instinct
Freeza/Frost
17

You are essentially criticizing all of the manga's bold storytelling moments. These are moments that were specifically crafted to shock fans. It's precisely the "betraying fan expectations" mentality that Toriyama prides himself on.

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, and it's totally fine for you to like the anime, but the things you seem to prefer don't live up to what makes the original series unique. I'm not saying that these are my favorite moments in all of Dragon Ball, but they're at least surprising, interesting, and at the very least, thematically appropriate.

[Simere]

I don't know why so many people seem to miss this. Well...yes, I do. It's because they get caught up in strength comparisons and become so worked up that they misinterpret what is happening on the page.

I'd like to see those of you who liked the manga scene but have different interpretations as to what it meant debate each other. Might get somewhere without the preoccupation with working in insults.

[Raphael_Z]

I couldn't disagree more. I also don't see how this is relevant either.

It's relevant cause both TOP's are finally finished. Also, yes the manga's TOP was better written due to situations having reasons behind them. The way Goku obtains UI, there was no friendship boosts, and simple things like giving reasons why a tired Goku and Vegeta could handle Jiren towards the end. Due to that, the new arc will be just as coherent cause Toyotaro likes to keep continuity with classic Dragonball.

None of those are good reasons why the manga ToP is better. In fact, the ToP is the most blatant example of the manga being worse overall, especially in terms of character writing and fight scenes.

The first half of the TOP was way better in the manga (it's a Battle Royale after all) while the second half was way better in the anime (1vs1 makes sense when there's only like 8 fighters left and we actually care about all of them).

The manga went extremely downhill during the Gohan vs Kefla fight IMO. It's as if Toyotaro just threw up his arms in the air and said whatever, nobody is reading this anyways, I'm gonna fish quick so I can start my own original arc.

One uber powerful fighter (Kefla) eliminating 80% of the fodder was a brilliant storytelling device but said uber fighting getting a double ring out with Gohan with no build up or pay off whatsoever was extremely lame.

[Rakurai]

That's pure headcanon, and its clearly disproven by how Goku since at least the 22nd TB arc was already portrayed as being superior in technique and state-of-mind than Roshi, seeing how he would learn and master much of Roshi's skill set at a faster and easier rate than he did.

It's anything but headcanon given it's already been portrayed in the manga.

Goku lost his martial arts way for a moment, and what did he do when Roshi showed him his flimsy UI footwork? Literally exactly what you just said.

[Rakurai]

Well, Even tho Goku tapped into UI he still couldn't maintain it. Whis tried to get Goku and Vegeta into such a state of mind for UI after all this time. Whis didn't know Goku had former teachings that was similar to UI in the past. However, Roshi knew he did and because of that recall Goku was able to tap into it. During the TOP, Whis stated Goku still lacks training after attaining UI. After losing UI Goku confirms he needs more training. He just confirmed that again last chapter too. Ultra Instinct is that special, so they don't want Goku to just spam the thing all over the place. It's something he has to gradually learn.

No, Goku admitted he'd train the old-fashioned way. That could mean a number of things, and I don't see him going back to Roshi, Popo, or Whis on how to achieve the state of mind required for UI. It should never have been treated like a transformation to begin with.

[Simere]

Goku lost his martial arts way for a moment, and what did he do when Roshi showed him his flimsy UI footwork? Literally exactly what you just said.

How can you say he lost his way for a "moment" now when earlier you said he's ignored/forgotten his teachings for decades(since Raditz) and has relied solely on strength throughout his life?

[supersaiyanZero]

I couldn't disagree more. I also don't see how this is relevant either.

It's relevant cause both TOP's are finally finished. Also, yes the manga's TOP was better written due to situations having reasons behind them. The way Goku obtains UI, there was no friendship boosts, and simple things like giving reasons why a tired Goku and Vegeta could handle Jiren towards the end. Due to that, the new arc will be just as coherent cause Toyotaro likes to keep continuity with classic Dragonball.

None of those are good reasons why the manga ToP is better. In fact, the ToP is the most blatant example of the manga being worse overall, especially in terms of character writing and fight scenes.

Funny, because it's exactly the opposite. The only reason to watch the anime version is for the visual spectacle at the end. Other than that, it was a dragged out, nonsensical, nobody cares snoozefest in which characters gave you one note monologue after one note monologue that we've all heard before in Z. Straight up irredeemable garbage save for Takahashi.

[zarmack]

Your post completely ignores my main criticism of the manga version: The fact that it has Roshi teaching Goku principles that he already learned and mastered all the way back in Early DB. In fact, Roshi since the 22nd TB arc made it clear that he has nothing more to teach Goku, since he's gone far ahead of him. The problem is that Toyotaro has Goku regress to a novice level fighter just give him some forced repeated development from Roshi.

Yes, Goku has already learned these things. That's why as soon as Kame-sen'nin criticizes Goku for his approach, he instantly realizes that he was wrong. He's just being nudged in the right direction. Remember the basics. This is a totally acceptable character moment, and one that might apply to anyone in real life who reaches a plateau when developing a skill. The fact that Kame-sen'nin's wisdom instigates this is really the only thing that justifies his inclusion in the tournament. In the anime, his only purpose is parlor tricks. They could've chosen Chaozu and gotten the same result.

I don't know why so many people seem to miss this. Well...yes, I do. It's because they get caught up in strength comparisons and become so worked up that they misinterpret what is happening on the page. The irony is that Kame-sen'nin isn't just talking to Goku, he's also talking to the audience. His lesson applies in a meta-sense to the direction of Dragon Ball and fan perceptions of the series.

Kale and Caulifla in the manga have significantly less personality than in the anime (and the most interesting thing about the 2, their relationship, is absent in the manga)

In the anime, Caulifla and Kale (especially) are one-note bait characters designed to appeal to Western fans. Its so blatant and shameless. Kale is the worst parts of Broly's personality packed into a cute girl. She's a pathetic, selfish, jealous coward who has no redeeming characteristics until she is encouraged by the girl she wants to impress. At least the original Broly (who I am no fan of) has tragedy to justify his behavior. Caulifla is obnoxious and immature, but not in a charming way like Toriyama often manages to pull off. Their romance (which I do believe was intended) is so shallow, dry, and unsatisfying that it makes Toriyama's romances look robust. They didn't have the guts nor the story-telling ability to pull it off properly, so the whole thing just feels like a totally wasted opportunity.

In the manga, Caulifla is much more balanced. She's confident, but not a jerk or a child. Her relationship with Cabba is much more reasonable and satisfying, and little things like her 180-degree reaction to a perceived compliment from Freeza keep her quirky and fun. I'm not even going to bother explaining manga Kale because literally anything would be preferable to the anime's interpretation. That being said, the fact that Toyotaro deviated so heavily from what was Toei's character to begin with is something I very much respect.

Ultra Instinct
Freeza/Frost
17

You are essentially criticizing all of the manga's bold storytelling moments. These are moments that were specifically crafted to shock fans. It's precisely the "betraying fan expectations" mentality that Toriyama prides himself on.

Maybe I'm being a bit harsh, and it's totally fine for you to like the anime, but the things you seem to prefer don't live up to what makes the original series unique. I'm not saying that these are my favorite moments in all of Dragon Ball, but they're at least surprising, interesting, and at the very least, thematically appropriate.

Its clear from your posts that you seem incapable of seeing anything Toriyama or Toyotaro does critically, no matter how bad. No wonder manga-fans get called Toyocucks smh (even by folks who also hate the anime).

1. First of all, Kale and Caulifla are not created to appeal to Western fans (where the hell did you get that blatantly false assumption from? Nothing in the franchise is designed for the West, and neither Toriyama nor Toei care about what Western fans like). And if anything, they are much more popular in Japan since there was no backlash against their characters over there among the fandom.


"She's a pathetic, selfish, jealous coward who has no redeeming characteristics until she is encouraged by the girl she wants to impress", all of which automatically make her far more interesting and developed in the anime than her manga counterpart (who, after transforming, turns into a M10 Broly ripoff with no lines and bad powerscaling, barely even a character), so you just debunked your own argument with Kale. Even with her flaws, she if shown to overcome them by ep.101 (a fact which you clearly ignored). And Anime Caulifla is far more likeable and appealing personality wise, considering howshe shows far more care and warmth towards both Kale and Cabba than in the manga, and actually begins to respect Goku once he starts teaching her despite her initial egoism. There wasn't anything is even half as good with her in the manga, since there she comes across as even more of a clueless douche that doesn't know her place, hardly "balanced". And Kale x Caulifla relationship in the anime (lesbian or not) is easily objectively better than most in the franchise (literally almost anything is better than Goku x Chichi honestly), since it mainly exist to develop the 2 rather than as just fanservice or a mere plot-device.

2. You are clearly grasping straws with your defense of the scene with Roshi in the manga. The point is that the whole scene should have never happened, its redundant pseudo-development that didn't need to be repeated if Goku already mastered these things as a kid. And no one said a thing about strength comparisons, so you are putting words in my mouth.

3. Virtually nothing about what Freeza, Frost and A17 do in the manga was "bold" nor "thematically appropriate" by any means, its just stupid, rushed, bad writing from an author that clearly wants to get passed the ToP as soon as possible. Freeza throwing away his own teammates and A17 making a pointless sacrifice with no build-up are extremely stupid moments no matter how you rationalize it.

Just because a story "defies fan expectations" doesn't make it automatically good (its essentially no better than fanservice since you still writing a work mainly based on how the audience would react to it rather than what's best for the story regardless of what they think. Its a hypocritical hipster form of writing. At least fanservice is honest about itself).

4. And just because something is done in Toriyama's style doesn't make it good. You sound like you are incapable of admitting that Toriyama and especially Toyotaro is simply not that good of a writer by any means (Dragonball in general isn't popular/idolized because of its writing). In fact, many of the best aspects of DB(Z) didn't come from Toriyama himself and the series is often at its best when its not done in Toriyama's style or not written by him at all (just compare 90's Bardock to DB Minus, the History of Trunks anime to its manga version or the anime version of the Buu arc to the manga for examples.) Toei has outclassed Toriyama several times even with original source material, and a lot of the original manga's better ideas came from his editors.

[zarmack]

Funny, because it's exactly the opposite. The only reason to watch the anime version is for the visual spectacle at the end. Other than that, it was a dragged out, nonsensical, nobody cares snoozefest in which characters gave you one note monologue after one note monologue that we've all heard before in Z. Straight up irredeemable garbage save for Takahashi.

As if the manga version with its wasted characters, even more one-note character writing, horrendous story-broading https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5uscyx0OpU, mediocre fights and even worse powerscaling some how makes it better...