"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[prince212]

Dragging, repeating , slow pace .. those things are sadly implied to exist in an anime weekly series

...no they're not. It's entirely down to the setup of the writing and production team. Case in point, Super did not have the pacing issues Z did (at least, not in the same way).

sometimes that happened Also in the original dragon ball . Running a series for long time on a weekly basis make it hard to avoid those things.

It happened a lot and it sucked. Plenty of Super is spent killing time or doing overall fillerish stuff, but only when it's forced to conform to a manga does it slow to a crawl and have to buffer itself with uninteresting drek like what happened with the Frieza battle in Z.

Not sure what do you want .. some kind of anime running model like Pokémon?
I don’t know any anime of my taste that is not based on a manga . And there’s some worse and some better than the original manga version . To avoid fillers ...make it seasonal .
And that’s it , let the manga run in peace !!!

[Shaddy]

Not sure what do you want .. some kind of anime running model like Pokémon?
I don’t know any anime of my taste that is not based on a manga . And there’s some worse and some better than the original manga version . To avoid fillers ...make it seasonal .
And that’s it , let the manga run in peace !!!

What I'm saying is that people are going "oh, Super's anime should be based on Toyo's manga" for no potential reasons other than 1. "the untouchably perfect DeeBeeZee did it so it must be better that way" or 2. "Toyo is better than the anime writers so it would make a better show". But the truth is, it would only cause problems in the longrun.

We've already GOT Super having run the way it did. And that show has a fuckton of problems, but not one of them is being held back by stringently needing to adapt half a chapter every week to keep on pace with a manga that isn't even worth it.

[Kakarot]

Not sure what do you want .. some kind of anime running model like Pokémon?
I don’t know any anime of my taste that is not based on a manga . And there’s some worse and some better than the original manga version . To avoid fillers ...make it seasonal .
And that’s it , let the manga run in peace !!!

What I'm saying is that people are going "oh, Super's anime should be based on Toyo's manga" for no potential reasons other than 1. "the untouchably perfect DeeBeeZee did it so it must be better that way" or 2. "Toyo is better than the anime writers so it would make a better show". But the truth is, it would only cause problems in the longrun.

We've already GOT Super having run the way it did. And that show has a fuckton of problems, but not one of them is being held back by stringently needing to adapt half a chapter every week to keep on pace with a manga that isn't even worth it.

Hopefully this break gives them time to establish a proper tone for each arc, as well as properly characterize Son Goku.

[prince212]

Not sure what do you want .. some kind of anime running model like Pokémon?
I don’t know any anime of my taste that is not based on a manga . And there’s some worse and some better than the original manga version . To avoid fillers ...make it seasonal .
And that’s it , let the manga run in peace !!!

What I'm saying is that people are going "oh, Super's anime should be based on Toyo's manga" for no potential reasons other than 1. "the untouchably perfect DeeBeeZee did it so it must be better that way" or 2. "Toyo is better than the anime writers so it would make a better show". But the truth is, it would only cause problems in the longrun.

We've already GOT Super having run the way it did. And that show has a fuckton of problems, but not one of them is being held back by stringently needing to adapt half a chapter every week to keep on pace with a manga that isn't even worth it.

I don’t know about what people is saying... but I think one of the reasons about the anime stopping after t.o.p arc was the lack of ideas ... this broly movie is a proof of that .. so , for the time being , let the manga run . For me is worthed, I don’t know why I got into this conversation when in reality I don’t care that much about an anime version right now . If this manga continues and makes a couple of good arcs , then yes , give me an anime . I don’t trust in Toei to handle the story of this series , call me crazy but 20 years ago and in this dbs anime they weren’t successful to me .
Toyo is at least closer to my preferences in this series , that is the original manga by toriyama

[Shaddy]

I don’t know about what people is saying... but I think one of the reasons about the anime stopping after t.o.p arc was the lack of ideas ... this broly movie is a proof of that .. so , for the time being , let the manga run .

That doesn't make any sense. Every major arc plot is still from Toriyama. It effects the manga as much as the anime, so long as either still adapts his notes. If Toriyama has run out of ideas, then Toei and Toyotaro are the ones picking up the slack, and thus it wasn't the reason the anime ended. It was likely to A. give the audience a break and B. fix the shitty production (which the results are evident of in the movie). And I only say likely because I don't have direct proof, I can be 99% certain that is the reason.

For me is worthed, I don’t know why I got into this conversation when in reality I don’t care that much about an anime version right now . If this manga continues and makes a couple of good arcs , then yes , give me an anime . I don’t trust in Toei to handle the story of this series , call me crazy but 20 years ago and in this dbs anime they weren’t successful to me .
Toyo is at least closer to my preferences in this series , that is the original manga by toriyama

Ignoring that highly debatable last line, I'm not sure how exactly you think this stuff works (and with your questionable presentation, it's hard to tell). The "story" is all Toriyama, how the plot points are elaborated upon is down to Toyo for the manga and Toei for the anime, but Toyo's manga is so much more sparse and barebones that the anime, if keeping pace with the manga, would add in a whole bunch of shit anyway. Even if what Toyo was doing was inherently better, you wouldn't be free from Toei-original material, and you'd have a much worse situation on your hands because they'd be shackled to keeping pace with the manga. This is the point I've been making all along. I haven't said the anime is perfect or that Toyotaro is terrible (well, I have alluded to that second one), I've just been saying that with the nature of Toyo's manga and the hindsight of how much bullshit was shoved into the previous series' adaptations, the anime adapting Toyotaro's manga for the future would be a terrible idea.

[prince212]

I don’t know about what people is saying... but I think one of the reasons about the anime stopping after t.o.p arc was the lack of ideas ... this broly movie is a proof of that .. so , for the time being , let the manga run .

That doesn't make any sense. Every major arc plot is still from Toriyama. It effects the manga as much as the anime, so long as either still adapts his notes. If Toriyama has run out of ideas, then Toei and Toyotaro are the ones picking up the slack, and thus it wasn't the reason the anime ended. It was likely to A. give the audience a break and B. fix the shitty production (which the results are evident of in the movie). And I only say likely because I don't have direct proof, I can be 99% certain that is the reason.

For me is worthed, I don’t know why I got into this conversation when in reality I don’t care that much about an anime version right now . If this manga continues and makes a couple of good arcs , then yes , give me an anime . I don’t trust in Toei to handle the story of this series , call me crazy but 20 years ago and in this dbs anime they weren’t successful to me .
Toyo is at least closer to my preferences in this series , that is the original manga by toriyama

Ignoring that highly debatable last line, I'm not sure how exactly you think this stuff works (and with your questionable presentation, it's hard to tell). The "story" is all Toriyama, how the plot points are elaborated upon is down to Toyo for the manga and Toei for the anime, but Toyo's manga is so much more sparse and barebones that the anime, if keeping pace with the manga, would add in a whole bunch of shit anyway. Even if what Toyo was doing was inherently better, you wouldn't be free from Toei-original material, and you'd have a much worse situation on your hands because they'd be shackled to keeping pace with the manga. This is the point I've been making all along. I haven't said the anime is perfect or that Toyotaro is terrible (well, I have alluded to that second one), I've just been saying that with the nature of Toyo's manga and the hindsight of how much bullshit was shoved into the previous series' adaptations, the anime adapting Toyotaro's manga for the future would be a terrible idea.

Alright , my preferences -opinions are debatable? You might have different ones and it’s ok , I didn’t say my opinion are facts , so there’s nothing to debate , I’m aware this manga is highly hated.
Your presentation is excellent, but I still don’t know clearly what’s your idea , Toei doing things by themselves, a new writer , ignore that this new manga arc is being created by toriyama and toyotaro together? I think you suppose that adapting the manga as a base stop the anime of creating some subplots or fillers , when that’s not necessary a thing to happen .
No rush , let the manga work , let the anime production make a plan if so . I get your fears if an anime starts soon adaptating the manga , it’s soon for that , even if the broly thing is retelled

[Marlowe89]

I correct myself: of course Super’s anime has lots of fillers, but in the future the way to fix it is not to adapt Toyotaro’s manga but to fix the behind the scenes issues Toei had with Super.

I just don't like the implication that it's going to "fix" everything or guarantee a well-written product. That's incredibly speculative.

Good pre-production is better than bad pre-production, especially from a visual standpoint, but let's not pretend it's instantly going to change a bad writer into a good one. If they're struggling with getting the fundamentals down, better coordination isn't gonna help. The problem I have with this "the anime just needs better scheduling and then all of its issues will magically be fixed!" mindset is that at best it's hilariously naive, and at worst just comes across as a blame-shifting excuse for poor work. Has it ever occurred to these people that maybe a lot of the show's scriptwriters aren't especially talented at what they do?

Actually, let's take that one step further. Even if Toei hired a bunch of new scriptwriters that were all perfectly talented and had a solid understanding of the material - which is highly unlikely, but possible - a collective of one or two of those writers working entirely on their own is demonstrably a better source of cohesion than a much larger group with different styles and intentions. Unless they specifically do that, or make Toriyama churn out an entire script as opposed to napkin outlines, the studio's solo efforts wouldn't necessarily resolve Super's narrative problems. In fact, I doubt they would.

We've seen time and again what happens when Toei has the freedom to write a Dragon Ball story however they want. They might throw in a few decent things, but boy do they know how to fuck up the broader package. They need less freedom there, not more.

[Shaddy]

Alright , my preferences -opinions are debatable? You might have different ones and it’s ok , I didn’t say my opinion are facts , so there’s nothing to debate , I’m aware this manga is highly hated.

It's debatable to say it's "closer to Toriyama". Obviously in medium and visual sense that's true, but I would disagree that a lot of the writing feels like him. You can have whatever opinion you want, dude.

Your presentation is excellent, but I still don’t know clearly what’s your idea , Toei doing things by themselves, a new writer , ignore that this new manga arc is being created by toriyama and toyotaro together?

Every arc of the manga is created by Toriyama and Toyotaro together. We think they've been working together more, and there's plenty of evidence to that as there isn't an anime for Tori to multitask with, but if there was, I don't think they'd just be waiting around to get to adapting the manga.

I think you suppose that adapting the manga as a base stop the anime of creating some subplots or fillers , when that’s not necessary a thing to happen .

It wouldn't stop anime-original content from happening, but it would most certainly make it worse. Toei's best additions to the series have been little character moments, continuity nods or just framing things in a more complex light. Throughout Super this has mostly happened when Toriyama's notes have been vague, which has certainly lead to some stupid moments too, but I appreciate what was done. That mostly goes away when they're held to the kind of writing the manga provides, and it forces them to lead the anime-only content in a more literal time-killing direction like most of Z's filler, which suuuuuucked.

No rush , let the manga work , let the anime production make a plan if so . I get your fears if an anime starts soon adaptating the manga , it’s soon for that , even if the broly thing is retelled

If it adapts the manga at all, it will be too soon. I can GUARANTEE they would catch up, and would do so TWICE as fast as with the original series. The only conceivable way they could handle things would be to release the anime arc-by-arc, but there's a multitude of reasons why that would be risky, and the fact stands that they aren't going to do that in the first place so I see no point in discussing it.

I think the real answer here is that Toriyama needs to take a more hands-on approach, both with making Toyotaro suck less (which, granted, this arc seems better starting out) and to keep the anime writers on the same page. Be in closer contact with whoever the series director is and have higher standards for your own series.

[prince212]

...

Ok my friend , I’m not interested in debate your Phobias about an anime based on a manga . In my opinion is the natural way once the manga is proof to be good . We don’t know that yet , if so , after a couple of good arcs I can take a seasonal anime based on this manga that so far is looking good and promising, we will see .
I respect your opinion

[Shaddy]

It's not a "phobia". I've seen what Dragon Ball is when it has to stick so strictly to the manga. Not having that restriction has been the biggest boon to Super's pacing, writing notwithstanding. Sticking to this one would bring back those issues and intensify them, and I don't want that to happen. The show is already confirmed to be coming back, and the chance of it being "seasonal" all of a sudden is so low it doesn't even warrant discussion. I have only explained why I think it would be both unlikely and incredibly bad for the show to take such a course.

Also, the manga has had four arcs to prove it could be good, it was working off the same notes as the anime, at what point does it stop being "too early to say"? This is the Sonic fandom all over again.

[prince212]

Also, the manga has had four arcs to prove it could be good, it was working off the same notes as the anime, at what point does it stop being "too early to say"? This is the Sonic fandom all over again.

Well, now we are in a different scenario from before , supposedly the manga is not working out of “some notes” and it’s a co-working between tori and toyo. Also before anime was ahead as the guide who premiered first the results of those “notes” . But now that you mentioned it I would prefer that the 131 episodes that we had of the anime were based in what toyo did till now .. with a fast B.o.G that already introduce characters of the next arc , skipping R.o.F , having a longer future trunks arc and a shorter T.o.P arc . Around 80 episodes hight qualify would make it , 3 seasons . This series are lucky to have such a fan base able to forget some garbage that happened, other series can’t make those mistakes and keep on going . Dragon ball brand is strong .. so strong to the point of offering crappy animation at some points and survive .

[Shaddy]

Well, now we are in a different scenario from before , supposedly the manga is not working out of “some notes” and it’s a co-working between tori and toyo.

We don't have a concrete picture of what that means. Toriyama already corrected and changed things about Toyotaro's work, he's posted as much on his twitter. Either way, wouldn't that just mean the manga is better now that the master mangaka with 40 years of work is taking a bigger hand in it? That's not exactly surprising, and however you feel about the manga as a whole does not reflect well on Toyotaro after his version of the ToP. Also incongruous, considering people were saying this arc is better because he's the one with more freedom. It's not a factor that you can just use as a reason to say something is better when the factor itself is unclear.

Also before anime was ahead as the guide who premiered first the results of those “notes” .

What is this sentence supposed to mean? The manga did indeed release it's first chapter before the anime's first episode, but that means nothing in terms of when Toriyama wrote his notes, nor when work first started on either.

But now that you mentioned it I would prefer that the 131 episodes that we had of the anime were based in what toyo did till now .. with a fast B.o.G that already introduce characters of the next arc , skipping R.o.F , having a longer future trunks arc and a shorter T.o.P arc . Around 80 episodes hight qualify would make it , 3 seasons .

Except Super was designed as an anime first, from the outset. It was made to run every single week for several years, the same way it did in the 90s, just without a manga to adapt. Yes, theoretically Super would have less filler content and posturing if they waited until Toyotaro finished the Tournament of Power to adapt his manga. But that's never where the intent was, they would never do that for this series, we can only determine what better and worse courses of action for the foreseeable future would be, and changing the format of the anime alongside where the story material comes from isn't a good one on it's own, let alone it being Toyotaro's manga.

This series are lucky to have such a fan base able to forget some garbage that happened, other series can’t make those mistakes and keep on going . Dragon ball brand is strong .. so strong to the point of offering crappy animation at some points and survive .

I feel like you're about to use the word "budget" at some point here, and I would advise against it. Regardless, nobody has "forgotten" the problems with Super. We've complained and complained every single day like the fanboy children we are, and talk constantly about how it can keep from making mistakes again. I am currently talking about why it should not make the NEW mistake of shackling itself to a middling-at-best promotional manga drawn by an ascended fan artist with half the regular content of the original which ALREADY was not enough for the show to be enjoyable on a week-to-week basis. I'm kind of amazed at you implying that I'm looking past the series' flaws while ignoring every single obvious problem I've stated with trying to switch the show over to this nonsensical structure.

[emperior]

I correct myself: of course Super’s anime has lots of fillers, but in the future the way to fix it is not to adapt Toyotaro’s manga but to fix the behind the scenes issues Toei had with Super.

I just don't like the implication that it's going to "fix" everything or guarantee a well-written product. That's incredibly speculative.

Good pre-production is better than bad pre-production, especially from a visual standpoint, but let's not pretend it's instantly going to change a bad writer into a good one. If they're struggling with getting the fundamentals down, better coordination isn't gonna help. The problem I have with this "the anime just needs better scheduling and then all of its issues will magically be fixed!" mindset is that at best it's hilariously naive, and at worst just comes across as a blame-shifting excuse for poor work. Has it ever occurred to these people that maybe a lot of the show's scriptwriters aren't especially talented at what they do?

Actually, let's take that one step further. Even if Toei hired a bunch of new scriptwriters that were all perfectly talented and had a solid understanding of the material - which is highly unlikely, but possible - a collective of one or two of those writers working entirely on their own is demonstrably a better source of cohesion than a much larger group with different styles and intentions. Unless they specifically do that, or make Toriyama churn out an entire script as opposed to napkin outlines, the studio's solo efforts wouldn't necessarily resolve Super's narrative problems. In fact, I doubt they would.

We've seen time and again what happens when Toei has the freedom to write a Dragon Ball story however they want. They might throw in a few decent things, but boy do they know how to fuck up the broader package. They need less freedom there, not more.

Actually I was talking more about the fillers. A better production DOES fix the pacing. We could get almost no fillers at all, especially in the middle of the arc, and surely less cutaways to Pilaf gang or to Gods commenting every single thing like it happened in the ToP.
I think that the overall writing and narrative of the anime has generally been good with the only issues being some inconsistencies, usually episode from episode, and I also believe that the anime has made a better story than the manga out of the outlines.

The solution, as you also said, would be to have Toriyama come up with a full script for the TV show as he does for movies. so that the story can be consistent from start to finish, arguably better and surely fully canonical (right now is sort of in the middle as Toriyama barely considers the additions of Toei and Toyotaro).
Meanwhile if the anime adapted Toriyama scripts as they are, it wouldn’t make sense for Toyotaro to do the same thing but slower, would it? Then, if that were to happen, Toyotaro could write his own arcs teaming up with Toriyama as he’s doing right now.
This would be the ideal scenario for me, because it would play each medium’s strengths better, it would give them a better reason to coexist and it would give us more stories.

[Rakurai]

Random thought but i hope Toyo improves on how he draws his fights since Toei will prob use the manga and its panels as storyboarding when they adapt the fights. And doing that would save time and allow storyboarders more time on other episodes and fights.

I think what makes TOEI so special is that they can add original scenes to those fights the manga gives them. I thought that dynamic helped DBZ become very great. It should be like the old days when they had a platform to follow. They can concentrate on the fight scenes with all the writing of the story already handled. In that case I hope they do retell the Broly movie. To give the manga time to get ahead.

This is what I really enjoyed about DBZ, and which generally works in any anime adaptation. The additional battle choreography and exposition that the show gives to the setting or characters.

[prince212]

[Miracles]

Random thought but i hope Toyo improves on how he draws his fights since Toei will prob use the manga and its panels as storyboarding when they adapt the fights. And doing that would save time and allow storyboarders more time on other episodes and fights.

I think what makes TOEI so special is that they can add original scenes to those fights the manga gives them. I thought that dynamic helped DBZ become very great. It should be like the old days when they had a platform to follow. They can concentrate on the fight scenes with all the writing of the story already handled. In that case I hope they do retell the Broly movie. To give the manga time to get ahead.

This is what I really enjoyed about DBZ, and which generally works in any anime adaptation. The additional battle choreography and exposition that the show gives to the setting or characters.

Yep. With the story already handled if it builds off the manga they could focus on those battles just like the producer stated about the Broly movie.

[Sani007]

Do you think Molo will be again younger in the arc? With Super Dragon Balls, or magic.

[emperior]

I think what makes TOEI so special is that they can add original scenes to those fights the manga gives them. I thought that dynamic helped DBZ become very great. It should be like the old days when they had a platform to follow. They can concentrate on the fight scenes with all the writing of the story already handled. In that case I hope they do retell the Broly movie. To give the manga time to get ahead.

This is what I really enjoyed about DBZ, and which generally works in any anime adaptation. The additional battle choreography and exposition that the show gives to the setting or characters.

Yep. With the story already handled if it builds off the manga they could focus on those battles just like the producer stated about the Broly movie.

Dragon Ball Z used to have some good fillers and some helped to give the story more tension, but am I the only one here who remembers the dragged on fights, such as Goku vs Freeza, the episodes full of flashbacks, Fake Namek, Garlic Jr etcetera? And Z was adapting a weekly, fast paced manga.

Have you guys ever seen the list of filler episodes Naruto has? I think you are underestimating just how painfully boring the show would get if they had to adapt a monthly manga, and you are assuming it would suddenly eliminate all the writing issues you have with the anime, and you assume that adapting the manga would get us some extremely long fights.
The truth is that it would only make things worse, but whatever. Luckily I am quite sure they will never adapt the monthly manga by Toyotaro, as that doesn’t make sense and the manga isn’t that popular to really convince them to adapt it. Also, I repeat, it’s monthly and I don’t think I ever heard of an anime adapting a monthly manga.

[HeroR]

After reading this thread, I want to get rid this common myth of 'Super had too many different writers per episode'. Since this keeps being repeated by people who obviously never looked at Super's staff outside of maybe a few episodes.

Champa Saga: King Ryū wrote 11/14.

Future Trunks Saga: Atsuhiro Tomioka wrote 12/21.

So the whole, 'Super had different writers for every episode' isn't unless you means the Universal Survival Saga and even then Atsuhiro Tomioka wrote 77-81.

In fact, looking at the guide on this site, this doesn't even hold true of the retellings. Battle of Gods Saga, Toshio 4/14 and King Ryū 6/14. Meaning two writers did the majority of the Battle of Gods retelling with King Ryū specifically doing 11-14. Resurrection 'F', Yoshifumi Fukushima 6/13, Toshio 3/13. So Fukushima alone did most of the Resurrection 'F' retelling with writing 15-18. Toshio also did 25-26.

Even funnier, Super actually had less writers than Z overall. For the most part, Super had between five to six active writers at its peak (Future Trunks Saga had 4 writers, TOP had up to 6). The Saiyan Saga of Z had five and got a new writer for the Freeza Saga. So having Toriyama or whatever write everything doesn't cut down on the number of writers, especially when the writers don't dictate what happens. That's the job the director and producer.

[Marlowe89]

A better production DOES fix the pacing.

I think you're still over-correlating good production with things that better production wouldn't necessarily resolve.

The pacing depends entirely on how Toei deals with the frequency at which Toriyama comes up with new outlines. To my knowledge, he won't be doing this more quickly than before. If it's true that the show deliberately pads out its arcs to give Toriyama more time, better production would hardly "fix" that problem unless they create even more anime-only arcs/episodes between all the major story arcs.

In reality, what you're describing isn't a vastly different process from Z, Naruto, or One Piece. They'd still be waiting hand and foot on the big guy to finish the material getting adapted while supplementing everything with filler in the meantime, regardless of whether that filler exists inside or outside of Toriyama's stories.