"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[prince212]

it’s monthly and I don’t think I ever heard of an anime adapting a monthly manga.

I think attack on titan has a similar page counting and it’s monthly.
One punch man can be considering monthly too , but page count varies ...
What is hard to heard is an anime who is not adapting a manga or a novel .

[emperior]

A better production DOES fix the pacing.

I think you're still over-correlating good production with things that better production wouldn't necessarily resolve.

The pacing depends entirely on how Toei deals with the frequency at which Toriyama comes up with new outlines. To my knowledge, he won't be doing this more quickly than before. If it's true that the show deliberately pads out its arcs to give Toriyama more time, better production would hardly "fix" that problem unless they create even more anime-only arcs/episodes between all the major story arcs.

In reality, what you're describing isn't a vastly different process from Z, Naruto, or One Piece. They'd still be waiting hand and foot on the big guy to finish the material getting adapted while supplementing everything with filler in the meantime, regardless of whether that filler exists inside or outside of Toriyama's stories.

Super’s scripts by Toriyama were most likely finished well in advance though. And if it turns out that the problem is Toriyama being too slow to write his outlines (which I doubt he was) that’s still something that time can fix, and with Super having been off the air for a year, and the entire Universal Survival Arc lasting more than one year then Toriyama should have already planned out a few stories, so as long as he’s one arc ahead of the production it would be fine.

The process IS vastly different than those mangas you mentioned, as their anime adaptations have to follow each chapter beat by beat, line by line and sometimes they also use the storyboard as reference. This is not a problem for Super. Not to mention how having an outline written in advance means that they already know how each arc starts and how it ends and what happens in the middle of it, which again is not something they knew when they were adapting Toriyama’s manga nor is it something companies know when they adapt other mangas as far as I know.

A good production helps the pacing. I believe some episodes were dragged on more than usual because they had to give the better staff more time to work on the big episodes, and said big episodes had to be faster than usual because all the good staff was on them (example episode 66, with 64 being the episode which most likely got dragged on to make sure they had more time and staff for 66, and 67 being the direct result of them using all the good people to work on 66).
If the production and the schedule were better the FT arc, ideally, would have had more time dedicated to the fights and the important scenes and less to Pilaf gang, and pacing-wise even if the episode number is the same, having more fights and less nonsense filler gives the idea that the arc is longer (ex. Episodes 56 and 57 moved the plot forward and had fights. They were intense and that’s why I still remember them).
Also, the whole arc would have looked better art-wise and the direction could have been stronger because of directors having more time to work on episodes.

Another example of production impacting pacing is Copy Vegeta arc. FT arc had already its script completed by then but they still had to do filler episodes from ep. 42 to 46 to free up some time for the staff working on the start of the FT arc.
The same happened from episodes 68 to 76. There’s also episode 14 as an example, as that had no reason to exist. Or episode 30, which was just a summary of episode 28.

[Marlowe89]

Super’s scripts by Toriyama were most likely finished well in advance though.

The Universe Survival outline was a several-month-long process that included multiple drafts and meetings, even on Toriyama's end.

I don't know about you, but I find it especially hard to believe that this didn't affect the story's timing and progression speed for whatever was airing at the time (likely the Future Trunks arc), or that Toei just arbitrarily decided to have a bunch of one-shot fillers prior to animating the Universe Survival scripts. I definitely wouldn't attribute every little instance of padding to Toei's production issues when so much of it constantly permeated the show, even in the "good" episodes.

Toriyama's outlines aren't even particularly lengthy stories on their own, despite taking a decent amount of time to complete. Adapting someone else's work is always going to factor into that adaptation's pacing in a continuous serialization.

The process IS vastly different than those mangas you mentioned, as their anime adaptations have to follow each chapter beat by beat, line by line and sometimes they also use the storyboard as reference. This is not a problem for Super.

It's not a problem period, but I've already covered that. The process is no different in the sense I'm referring to.

There's nothing inherently wrong with following a pre-established outflow of plot points, dialogue and storyboards. If anything, if done well, it helps the overall cohesion of the series more than it would if you just had a bunch of obviously terrible scriptwriters doing whatever the hell they wanted like they have so often in Super.

[Miracles]

This is what I really enjoyed about DBZ, and which generally works in any anime adaptation. The additional battle choreography and exposition that the show gives to the setting or characters.

Yep. With the story already handled if it builds off the manga they could focus on those battles just like the producer stated about the Broly movie.

Dragon Ball Z used to have some good fillers and some helped to give the story more tension, but am I the only one here who remembers the dragged on fights, such as Goku vs Freeza, the episodes full of flashbacks, Fake Namek, Garlic Jr etcetera? And Z was adapting a weekly, fast paced manga.

Have you guys ever seen the list of filler episodes Naruto has? I think you are underestimating just how painfully boring the show would get if they had to adapt a monthly manga, and you are assuming it would suddenly eliminate all the writing issues you have with the anime, and you assume that adapting the manga would get us some extremely long fights.
The truth is that it would only make things worse, but whatever. Luckily I am quite sure they will never adapt the monthly manga by Toyotaro, as that doesn’t make sense and the manga isn’t that popular to really convince them to adapt it. Also, I repeat, it’s monthly and I don’t think I ever heard of an anime adapting a monthly manga.

Well, Toyotaro did say in an interview that in the future information will be going back to the anime when ahead. So it may be possible that TOEI will be dancing to the monthly manga's beat.

[prince212]

several-month-long process that included multiple drafts and meetings

Very interesting interview that show he huge influence on Toeis decisions concerning story key points .
This answer of the director catch my attention , because the anime didn’t depict that though, but the manga did somehow..

[Rakurai]

Dragon Ball Z used to have some good fillers and some helped to give the story more tension, but am I the only one here who remembers the dragged on fights, such as Goku vs Freeza, the episodes full of flashbacks, Fake Namek, Garlic Jr etcetera? And Z was adapting a weekly, fast paced manga.

Have you guys ever seen the list of filler episodes Naruto has? I think you are underestimating just how painfully boring the show would get if they had to adapt a monthly manga, and you are assuming it would suddenly eliminate all the writing issues you have with the anime, and you assume that adapting the manga would get us some extremely long fights.
The truth is that it would only make things worse, but whatever. Luckily I am quite sure they will never adapt the monthly manga by Toyotaro, as that doesn’t make sense and the manga isn’t that popular to really convince them to adapt it. Also, I repeat, it’s monthly and I don’t think I ever heard of an anime adapting a monthly manga.

Ofc, who could ever forget the infamous 5-min battle turned into like an entire season. That was truly one of its kind, and perhaps not in a good way. But it doesn't take away the other places where the DBZ anime did extremely well in.

Episodes full of flashbacks? I think you're talking about One Piece here, because DBZ didn't use flashbacks like every two episodes just to fill up episode time.

Naruto is a bad example to use. Studio Pierrot deliberately, unnecessarily padded the Naruto anime well after the end of its serialization in 2014. They spewed out a freaking what-if story with the adults still alive. The Naruto anime ended in 2017.

The manga was popular enough to be discussed in the Jump Festa panel. Every volume release is always making its way into the Top 50 weekly manga sales. "Not popular enough to adapt" is an even lousier excuse than "monthly manga" because Toyotarou is one of the better content creators for the entire DB franchise.

several-month-long process that included multiple drafts and meetings

Very interesting interview that show he huge influence on Toeis decisions concerning story key points .
This answer of the director catch my attention , because the anime didn’t depict that though, but the manga did somehow..

I think the hardcore fans of DB will recognize Muten Roshi's connections to UI. So it's no surprise that people like Toyotarou and Nakamura did.

[Sora Saiyan]

several-month-long process that included multiple drafts and meetings

Very interesting interview that show he huge influence on Toeis decisions concerning story key points .
This answer of the director catch my attention , because the anime didn’t depict that though, but the manga did somehow..

I read this interview before, but I mustn’t have paid any attention to that part. That’s so interesting!

[emperior]

Super’s scripts by Toriyama were most likely finished well in advance though.

The Universe Survival outline was a several-month-long process that included multiple drafts and meetings, even on Toriyama's end.

I don't know about you, but I find it especially hard to believe that this didn't affect the story's timing and progression speed for whatever was airing at the time (likely the Future Trunks arc), or that Toei just arbitrarily decided to have a bunch of one-shot fillers prior to animating the Universe Survival scripts. I definitely wouldn't attribute every little instance of padding to Toei's production issues when so much of it constantly permeated the show, even in the "good" episodes.

Toriyama's outlines aren't even particularly lengthy stories on their own, despite taking a decent amount of time to complete. Adapting someone else's work is always going to factor into that adaptation's pacing in a continuous serialization.

That interview doesn’t specify it took them months to finalise the Universal Survival Arc’s script. It may have, it may have not. Even if it took them around 3 months to finalise it, that’s still not a lot of time considering by June 2016 the FT arc’s script was already finished and the arc was over by the end of November, which means it’s quite probable that the outline for the next arc was done while FT arc was airing or even before that. U6 arc was written before Super even began airing, as Toriyama already mentioned it when he was promoting Super. Maybe it wasn’t finished yet, but I doubt that took him long to finish. Super’s outlines are relatively simple so I doubt it takes them a lot to finish them, but I may be wrong.

As for Broly, we only know that by June 2017 its script was finished and that Naohiro Shintani was aired to work on new designs in February. The script was a 3 hours long detailed script with tons of designs, though, so that’s a little different than the barebones outlines Toriyama was doing for the TV show. If Toriyama started working on it in February, it took him 4 months to finish it. That’s not a whole lot of time, and if they plan the new show accordingly they can stay always one arc behind Toriyama so that they can pace the stories better and avoid filler episodes.

Anyways it seems like with the Dragon Room they now have speeded up the whole process of finalising the stories, and they have said already two times how it seems like Toriyama prefers to write movies and how they want to keep the same arrangement in the future As with the previous outing, Resurrection ‘F’, we had Toriyama-sensei write the scenario for the new movie. In the Dragon Ball Super television series, Toriyama-sensei plotted the main story, and I feel that it’s important to maintain the arrangement of creating it alongside Toriyama-sensei from here on out.“

Sources:
(http://www.teamsaiyajin.it/db-super-bro ... nazionale/) unfortunately there’s no English translation of this interview as far as I know.

(http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/)

It's not a problem period, but I've already covered that. The process is no different in the sense I'm referring to.

There's nothing inherently wrong with following a pre-established outflow of plot points, dialogue and storyboards. If anything, if done well, it helps the overall cohesion of the series more than it would if you just had a bunch of obviously terrible scriptwriters doing whatever the hell they wanted like they have so often in Super.

There IS something wrong with following a monthly manga, though, as they would have to drag out the story to not catch up to the manga.
Your thoughts are incoherent: first you say Toei is full of incompetent writers, and then you say you want the same writers to follow Toyotaro’s manga? If the writers are as terrible as you say they would do even a worst job at adapting the manga. That is unless they decided to make a seasonal anime, in which case it would be stupid to adapt Toyotaro’s stories as they could just work the whole story out with Toriyama.

[Simere]

Very interesting interview that show he huge influence on Toeis decisions concerning story key points .
This answer of the director catch my attention , because the anime didn’t depict that though, but the manga did somehow..

https://imageshack.com/a/img923/4395/J5Vrvw.jpg

What he's talking about there—the sincerity of Goku's drive to improve—is depicted at all times everywhere. "Taken to heart", "a theme that runs from [DB to DBS]", it's not a revelation. Those who care and are inclined to make the connection to Roshi remember, and if anyone forgot there was an on the nose reminder in 106.

Personally, I've always found crediting that sincerity to Roshi's encouragement to be rather generous. If Roshi's nurturing played any role in its growth it's only because the soil was so fertile and the crop so easy. Like growing dandelions and then claiming to be a master gardener. One look at Kuririn tells me what the case actually is.

[emperior]

Super’s scripts by Toriyama were most likely finished well in advance though.

The Universe Survival outline was a several-month-long process that included multiple drafts and meetings, even on Toriyama's end.

I don't know about you, but I find it especially hard to believe that this didn't affect the story's timing and progression speed for whatever was airing at the time (likely the Future Trunks arc), or that Toei just arbitrarily decided to have a bunch of one-shot fillers prior to animating the Universe Survival scripts. I definitely wouldn't attribute every little instance of padding to Toei's production issues when so much of it constantly permeated the show, even in the "good" episodes.

Toriyama's outlines aren't even particularly lengthy stories on their own, despite taking a decent amount of time to complete. Adapting someone else's work is always going to factor into that adaptation's pacing in a continuous serialization.

That interview doesn’t specify it took them months to finalise the Universal Survival Arc’s script. It may have, it may have not. Even if it took them around 3 months to finalise it, that’s still not a lot of time considering by June 2016 the FT arc’s script was already finished and the arc was over by the end of November, which means it’s quite probable that the outline for the next arc was done while FT arc was airing or even before that. U6 arc was written before Super even began airing, as Toriyama already mentioned it when he was promoting Super. Maybe it wasn’t finished yet, but I doubt that took him long to finish. Super’s outlines are relatively simple so I doubt it takes them a lot to finish them, but I may be wrong.

As for Broly, we only know that by June 2017 its script was finished and that Naohiro Shintani was aired to work on new designs in February. The script was a 3 hours long detailed script with tons of designs, though, so that’s a little different than the barebones outlines Toriyama was doing for the TV show. If Toriyama started working on it in February, it took him 4 months to finish it. That’s not a whole lot of time, and if they plan the new show accordingly they can stay always one arc behind Toriyama so that they can pace the stories better and avoid filler episodes.

Anyways it seems like with the Dragon Room they now have speeded up the whole process of finalising the stories, and they have said already two times how it seems like Toriyama prefers to write movies and how they want to keep the same arrangement in the future
Quote from Akio Iyoku: “As with the previous outing, Resurrection ‘F’, we had Toriyama-sensei write the scenario for the new movie. In the Dragon Ball Super television series, Toriyama-sensei plotted the main story, and I feel that it’s important to maintain the arrangement of creating it alongside Toriyama-sensei from here on out.“

Sources:
(http://www.teamsaiyajin.it/db-super-bro ... nazionale/) unfortunately there’s no English translation of this interview as far as I know.

(http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... interview/)

It's not a problem period, but I've already covered that. The process is no different in the sense I'm referring to.

There's nothing inherently wrong with following a pre-established outflow of plot points, dialogue and storyboards. If anything, if done well, it helps the overall cohesion of the series more than it would if you just had a bunch of obviously terrible scriptwriters doing whatever the hell they wanted like they have so often in Super.

[/quote]

There IS something wrong with following a monthly manga, though, as they would have to drag out the story to not catch up to the manga.
Your thoughts are incoherent: first you say Toei is full of incompetent writers, and then you say you want the same writers to follow Toyotaro’s manga? If the writers are as terrible as you say they would do even a worst job at adapting the manga. That is unless they decided to make a seasonal anime, in which case it would be stupid to adapt Toyotaro’s stories as they could just work the whole story out with Toriyama.

[Marlowe89]

That interview doesn’t specify it took them months to finalise the Universal Survival Arc’s script.

It doesn't need to. We know that Toriyama's story meetings are bi-monthly, we know the outline went through multiple drafts before it was finalized. This isn't rocket science, it's a matter of basic inference.

Super’s outlines are relatively simple so I doubt it takes them a lot to finish them, but I may be wrong.

You're entirely wrong. Akio Iyoku specifically pointed out that finalizing the story for the Broly film was relatively quick and done in the first place to make the process easier for Toriyama compared to the longer stories of the TV series.

However long it took him to finish his script for the Broly arc was almost certainly that much longer and more comprehensive for the Universe Survival arc's outline. If you think that this had no effect on the pacing, I seriously don't know what to tell you other than that I don't think you actually understand how continuous story adaptations work.

Your thoughts are incoherent: first you say Toei is full of incompetent writers, and then you say you want the same writers to follow Toyotaro’s manga?

Your construal of my post is what's incoherent. I didn't say "the same" writers would/should follow Toyotaro's manga, I said that following a unified script is better for cohesion than giving bad writers too much freedom, which is true.

We don't know which scriptwriters Toei intends to use for Super 2.0, assuming the rumors are true at all.

If the writers are as terrible as you say they would do even a worst job at adapting the manga.

But see, I really don't think I should have to repeatedly explain why it's better for a group of writers to work with proper supervision from a pre-written narrative than go wild and create a bunch of disjointed scripts on their own. That should already be a given for anyone who understands the basics of story-crafting in an adaptational format.

Whether they "drag out" the story they're adapting depends on where they distribute their filler. Naruto/Shippuden is a fairly good example; the pacing for most of its canon arcs ranged from acceptable to decent, largely because the filler was placed between those arcs as anime-only stories. The filler itself might have been terribly written, but that's solely a matter of poor execution. Almost none of it was particularly inconsistent with the main story, and in fact, a ton of Shippuden's fillers were used to expand concepts and ideas that Kishimoto only briefly touched on in the original work.

There's a wide range of possibilities here that you're clearly not accounting for.

[LightBing]

Any theories for the reason nobody could actually kill Moro? I don't think it's just a lame excuse to keep him alive, I hope not at least.

Since it's likely Moro will be building his power, I hope we get a bit of pursue with a sprinkle of adventuring until things get more serious. I just wished we had a bigger group, wouldn't mind Piccolo and one of the humans in for the ride. Let's hope Boo wakes up and does stuff.

[Sani007]

Wow, that's nice catch!

[Acetona]

it’s monthly and I don’t think I ever heard of an anime adapting a monthly manga.

I think attack on titan has a similar page counting and it’s monthly.
One punch man can be considering monthly too , but page count varies ...
What is hard to heard is an anime who is not adapting a manga or a novel .

Claymore, Blue Exorcist, Fullmetal Alchemist, Twin Star Exorcists, and I could go until tomorrow listing more anime based on monthly manga. But emperior do have a point, since all of those had an anime-only ending and aren't really good adaptations (I'm talking about the 2003 FMA anime btw). Monthly manga mostly result on good adaptations when it's done on cours (like Attack on Titan and One Punch-Man) or when they have already finished their run. When it's long running or 50 episodes long or intended to be 1 season only (like Claymore), they are bound to be bad. And we do know Toei will never animate Dragon Ball on a cour basis.

If Toei did adaptate the manga, we would get something like the Boruto anime, just a bunch of fillers. (For record, I do found Boruto entertaining enough on its own, but it's a bit lackluster as a sequel)

[emperior]

it’s monthly and I don’t think I ever heard of an anime adapting a monthly manga.

I think attack on titan has a similar page counting and it’s monthly.
One punch man can be considering monthly too , but page count varies ...
What is hard to heard is an anime who is not adapting a manga or a novel .

Claymore, Blue Exorcist, Fullmetal Alchemist, Twin Star Exorcists, and I could go until tomorrow listing more anime based on monthly manga. But emperior do have a point, since all of those had an anime-only ending and aren't really good adaptations (I'm talking about the 2003 FMA anime btw). Monthly manga mostly result on good adaptations when it's done on cours (like Attack on Titan and One Punch-Man) or when they have already finished their run. When it's long running or 50 episodes long or intended to be 1 season only (like Claymore), they are bound to be bad. And we do know Toei will never animate Dragon Ball on a cour basis.

If Toei did adaptate the manga, we would get something like the Boruto anime, just a bunch of fillers. (For record, I do found Boruto entertaining enough on its own, but it's a bit lackluster as a sequel)

I apologise for the ignorance. I was probably thinking more of something along the lines that I never heard of a weekly anime adapting a monthly manga. I have no idea if that’s what Boruto does, but then you just confirmed it’s full of fillers so it confirms that it doesn’t really work well. And it is quite obvious that this would never work with Super just by looking at how the manga has just now finished with the ToP while the anime, which padded the arc out incredibly, was already over with it on April and it also fully adapted and expanded upon BoG and RoF, and also had a bunch of fillers here and there throughout his run and has also now completed yet another story with Broly’s movie. Yet people act like Super’s anime was the slowest thing ever pacing-wise, yet they want Toei to adapt a much slower manga.

Also I want to repeat how it’s entirely possible for Super to be perfectly paced and written consistently if they come up with a full script beforehand, as that would basically work as if that was a manga reference.
And this can be done either by having Toriyama come up with the script himself or by having someone else creating a script starting from Toriyama’s outline.

[ankokudaishogun]

If Toei did adaptate the manga, we would get something like the Boruto anime, just a bunch of fillers. (For record, I do found Boruto entertaining enough on its own, but it's a bit lackluster as a sequel)

Boruto also has the main writer of the Manga checking up EVERY episode to make sure they are coherent, especially in terms of characters motivations, abilities and setting.
Ikemoto himself stated that the anime is as canon as the Manga because this.

[prince212]

Spoiler:

Wow, that's nice catch!

I saw that theory in French webpage , who knows , but same as god of destruction names being referenced with the design , it’s a possibility nd I like those things . Here’s n image of moloch

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

it’s monthly and I don’t think I ever heard of an anime adapting a monthly manga.

I think attack on titan has a similar page counting and it’s monthly.
One punch man can be considering monthly too , but page count varies ...
What is hard to heard is an anime who is not adapting a manga or a novel .

Claymore, Blue Exorcist, Fullmetal Alchemist, Twin Star Exorcists, and I could go until tomorrow listing more anime based on monthly manga. But emperior do have a point, since all of those had an anime-only ending and aren't really good adaptations (I'm talking about the 2003 FMA anime btw). Monthly manga mostly result on good adaptations when it's done on cours (like Attack on Titan and One Punch-Man) or when they have already finished their run. When it's long running or 50 episodes long or intended to be 1 season only (like Claymore), they are bound to be bad. And we do know Toei will never animate Dragon Ball on a cour basis.

If Toei did adaptate the manga, we would get something like the Boruto anime, just a bunch of fillers. (For record, I do found Boruto entertaining enough on its own, but it's a bit lackluster as a sequel)

Yeap you know what you are talking about . Too bad that a cour basis seems that imposible for Toei to do with dragon ball , weeklys at best offers you 7 good minutes per chapter. I guess some wait for start an anime will be good , until having more material , at least two arcs .

emperior

your idea of more scripts is ok , but I think this broly movie was an example of the lack of ideas in this franchise .
So .. patience and let the manga run , I want an anime too , but a good one , I can wait 1 year if necessary.

Any theories for the reason nobody could actually kill Moro? I don't think it's just a lame excuse to keep him alive, I hope not at least.

Since it's likely Moro will be building his power, I hope we get a bit of pursue with a sprinkle of adventuring until things get more serious. I just wished we had a bigger group, wouldn't mind Piccolo and one of the humans in for the ride. Let's hope Boo wakes up and does stuff.

I though they just didn’t have the guts to kill somebody, but after reading your post and reread that line in the manga .. it seems that he still retain that strength that made impossible for them to kill him ... so I.d.k ...
Yes , I spent some twist to involve more people here ... if not this will be a solo goku vegeta , and we are tired of that .
Or just a fast mini arc that could be even worse . T.b.h I will love Satan to have a roll in here too . He’s the main hero for the humanity, and he should keep on growing his legend.

[Rakurai]

I'm simply going to resign to the fact that the main DB story is being milked past its prime, whether it's Toriyama, Toyotarou, or Toei writing it. It's diminished the story in my opinion and ruined how it concluded if they add unnecessary stuff in between for the sake of dragging it.

[emperior]

I'm simply going to resign to the fact that the main DB story is being milked past its prime, whether it's Toriyama, Toyotarou, or Toei writing it. It's diminished the story in my opinion and ruined how it concluded if they add unnecessary stuff in between for the sake of dragging it.

The fact DB is being milked is quite obvious just from the fact that they aren’t willing to go past its ending. It will be interesting to see how long they will be able to milk stories out of the 10 years gap before they are forced to get past them, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the plan is to end Super once the 10 years are fully milked so that the manga ending doesn’t have to be changed.

[Rakurai]

I'm simply going to resign to the fact that the main DB story is being milked past its prime, whether it's Toriyama, Toyotarou, or Toei writing it. It's diminished the story in my opinion and ruined how it concluded if they add unnecessary stuff in between for the sake of dragging it.

The fact DB is being milked is quite obvious just from the fact that they aren’t willing to go past its ending. It will be interesting to see how long they will be able to milk stories out of the 10 years gap before they are forced to get past them, but I wouldn’t be surprised if the plan is to end Super once the 10 years are fully milked so that the manga ending doesn’t have to be changed.

That's the problem, the manga has already been changed significantly, not just lore-wise but the manga ending makes no sense when taking Super into account, or it makes about as much sense as trying to reconcile GT continuity within Super continuity.