Official On-Going Dragon Ball Super Movie #1 Thread: "Broly"

[Michsi]

So do we even know why this new Broly is just uncontrollable and violent and needs to be under Paragus' control?

I think the point is that he is just volatile? Even pre-training Gohan got ferocious when angered, so a saiyan who also has massive amounts of power that they never really learned how to control and who grew up on a planet filled with dangerous beasts would be more animal-like.

[Broli Broly]

So do we even know why this new Broly is just uncontrollable and violent and needs to be under Paragus' control?

Yes indeed. It was hinted in the light novel. Broly, like any other Saiyan, has an instinct for battle. However, his instinct is uniquely "bottomless" and "uncontrollable". The novel says that when SSJ Broly felt Frieza was done for and couldn't fight anymore he left him right away and attacked Whis. In other words, Broly in his Ikari / Berserker mods is just looking for strong opponents to fight against and satisfy his immense Battle instinct.

[MaGyunia]

As a sequence of my coming back to Kanzenshuu and respective announcement, I'm going to proceed with a review of the Broly movie.

This will be a relatively small-sized, compact review, it won't be na ultra in-depth analysis in detail.

For those who still haven't seen the movie, be aware of major spoilers, please:

This movie has everything. Everything. It's not just the amount and the tremendous, brutal, constant display of simply unbelievable power by Gogeta, nor just the quality of the animation throughout the entire movie - some parts probably the best animation I've ever seen in anything DB/DBZ/DBSuper/Movies/Specials - or just the choreography of the battles. Everything comes in the right, exact doses.

This is a combination and a perfect balance between DBZ Movie 8, DBZ Movie 12 and the animated adaptation of Dragon Ball minus, in terms of combination of different elements outside the DBZ/DBSuper series.

Toriyama kept certain concepts from DBZ Movie 8 (King Vegeta outcasting Broly, Paragas' desire for revenge, Broly's abnormal power level, Paragas controlling Broly forcibly through technology, a device, a different one, but the premise is exactly the same) but changed Broly's character entirely, completely, along with other things and concepts in the movie's story, of course, to give it a full body and a strong, robust, solid story - entirely, absolutely successful.

We can "forget" the psychotic, evil bakemono Broly from DBZ Movie 8. I'll go back to Broly's character and the diferences between this one and the non-canon one we knew a little bit later.

Even the past is revisited (a recurrent trait of Dragon Ball). King Cold appears, along with the Ginyu Tokusentai, Zarbon, Dodoria, everyone. And Bardock is not the same we became used to. Goku's mother, Gine, appears too. They're genuinely pure-hearted Saiya-jins, a trait rare and uncommon among the race, they genuinely worry about Goku's survival. When Goku "touches" Bardock's hand through the pod, there you have another moment where you can cry. Even Raditz appears, and Gine and Raditz are just as worried about him as they are about Goku. Dragon Ball Minus and its animated adaptation incorporated into this movie completely changes the Bardock we knew, his character (to a certain degree) and especially his relationship with his son(s) - and we all know that Saiya-jins in general have little to no interest in their family members, including sons, even killing them without hesitation, and the relationships between Saiya-jin males and females are in general purely for breeding purposes.

Throughout the Saiya-jin and the Freeza arcs of DBZ and Battle of Gods, along with some oficial information, we gradually understood in-depth how the annexation of the Saiya-jins by Freeza took place, but, finally, in this movie we even got to see it on-screen, in real-time.

If we take this Bardock - even the combat uniform is different, everything based on Dragon Ball Minus (more than based, it's the anime adaptation of that piece of manga) - and the way he reacts to the feeling that Freeza is going to annihilate and exterminate the Saiya-jin as canon - which it is, it has become canon, and I'll discuss that later on too - we "lose" the dramatism of the TV Special dedicated to him, which meant so much to so many of us, but officially the events of this movie at that time are the ones which are canon, replacing the events seen in Bardock's TV Special, which means no visions of the future, no uncaring about his son, etc.

Vegeta displays a perfect demonstration of what he is, especially during his personal fight with Broly, Goku's fight is weaker but Goku, while fighting, keeps making certain comments to Broly which bear enormous significance. Everything is perfectly integrated. I'll go more in-depth on the fights and respective animation quality/choreography later on, especially in the case of Vegeta's battle.
Even new characters (Cheelai, especially, and Lemo too) who develop a relationship of pure friendship with Broly, there are moments when it's no shame to cry for different reasons, it's just too perfect, too beautiful. Broly's dramatic past, his pure personality, when he finally starts speaking, his relationship with his father - typical stern father-son relationship, but with additional revenge reasons behind in Paragas' case. Nothing is missing in this movie, taking into account the circumstances, it has everything, and everything in the right doses. We can "forget" the psychopathic Broly from DBZ Movie 8, that bakemono; this Broly is as gentle and pure as Goku in his normal, "conscious" state.

Quite in fact, I'll stick my neck here and go as far as to say that Broly is as pure and kind-hearted as Goku, at all levels, uncorrupted in his Saiya-jin pride and characteristics by King Cold's and Freeza's humiliating annexation of an extremely proud warior race, as well as his natural savage chracter (doesn't even know what water is - Planet Vampa is desolate and has a harsh environment, which might have helped to unlock his unbelievable potential, but all he needed was a trigger, as is Dragon Ball trend - or the most basic, simple things about society), animalistic, barely speaking, reminding one of how Goku grew up in a certain way, the most important one - savagery.

And Freeza, that scumbag, spends the entire movie manipulating Broly, going as far as killing his father so Broly can/may burst of grief, shock, horror, rage and anger, and it works. It's dramatic. His reaction to that event is dramatic. And Freeza says it was Goku and Vegeta, or somebody else, who killed his father, but even at that level the movie is perfect, because Broly goes basically out-of-control, insane, psychotic, and attacks any and everybody without criterion, and he absolutely thrashes Freeza in a brutal, violent manner - this lasts a relatively small time but the brutal beating he gives Freeza - not deliberately, he doesn't even know what he's doing - compensates for it. Quality instead of quantity (volume, time).

This movie is unbelievable. In one moment you're crying with Broly's purity, telling his story about the friendship he developed with Bah on Planet Vampa, where not even water exists, and minutes later you're having orgasms with some of the biggest and perhaps the greatest set of displays of godly power + ruthlessnesseste from Vegeta ever (!).
This might seem suspicious coming from a Vegeta lunatic like me, but Vegeta's entire fight is the best one in the movie except, obviously, at an already insane level, what Gogeta does. There's no insufficiency, no mistake here, all factors and feelings and emotions are balanced in time and quality.

There's an instance when Vegeta initiates the process of transforming into Super Saiya-jin God - flies up in the sky , the yellow SSJ aura recedes and is replaced by the red one, and Vegeta proceeds to let go a very quick and short-lived scream simultaneously beautifully violent/brutal and godly, as powerful and calm as a god but "muffled" by the effects of the Kiai released. I have no words to describe that scene (among many others throughout the movie, but when the action starts, more or less in the second half of the movie, it's not just Vegeta's beautiful - at all levels, quality of animation, choreography, Vegeta's attitude - fight with Broly.

During the fight he's always serious, he dominates Broly and is always looking down on him with the arrogance that his absolute self-confidence and assuredness in his immense power give him, but (very important aspect which Vegeta learned to correct and which puts him - finally - arguably in the same league as Goku - without the counterproductive exhaggerations of the past. It's only when they realize they're dealing with a monster which threatens their level, to match it or even, who knows?, surpass it, when he (Broly) transforms into his absolute maximum (already psychotic) that Vegeta changes his attitude very quickly all of a sudden and the battle rapidly takes the shape of a life-or-death, extremely serious and dramatic menace, not just to Earth, of course, but to the Universe, but Gogeta is simply just too tremendous - constant domination, literally, in control every single second and moment of his one-sided fight with Broly, kick after kick, brutal punch after brutal punch, one after the other, always alternating with extremely powerful constant Ki balls, too fast; Gogeta literally plays with the absolutely immeasureable degree of power he possesses.

Broly strongly respects his father, and when Frieza remembers that exploding Krillin was the trigger for Goku to finally transform out of anger on Namek, he tries the same: he shoots Paragas with a Death Deam (his trademark red/purple attack with perfurates rather than exploding), then proceeds immediately to clear his throat to prepare the imminet acting and starts screaming to Broly that his father has been murdered - you can laugh a little bit for a few seconds in this scene, at first, only at first... - and Broly explodes of horror (his face, knowing his gentle, kind character and personality, upon seeing his father's recently deceased corpse, turns the scene into something absolutely dramatic, you really feel horrified and truly sorry for Broly) and dispair and rage and anger. Later on, Freeza is thrashed by Broly easily even in his Golden form, mas Broly is already completely out-of-control, psychotic, and will attack anything and anybody without criterion - he's chasing Goku and Vegeta and passes by Freeza in his way, "decides" to stop (maybe subconsciously, who knows?) and Broly proceeds to beat Freeza mercilessly and violently, brutally, a barrage of brutal punches right in Freeza's face. In the end, everybody involved in this particular episode gets what they deserve, excluding Freeza, of course, who is someone apart, they need to keep him around for obvious reasons as the most evil and charismatic villain of all of Dragon Ball's history, and perhaps all of anime, so they can't give him what he deserves.

Vegeta's fight again, just to add a few more extra details: Absolute domination, perfect fight (especially for a Vegeta maniac like me) even though one of them is in their respective states light-years away from his maximum. One of the best (if not the best), ever) demonstration of control over the level of power achieved by Vegeta by this point, one of the best fighting performances in the gigantically long history of Dragon Ball's constant fighting. In terms of quality of animation, this fight is only surpassed by Gogeta vs Broly. Apart from that, quite in fact this movie isn't just the typical DBZ movie from the nineties and has much more than just fighting, like I said already before, and it's actually one of the few fights at all levels.

And Vegeta, despite all these changes, still won't hesitate to kill in combat when he deems na oponente unworthy, boring or too weak for him (ruthlessness) - take Ginyu in the series or Broly in this movie - he says "ridiculous!" and shoots a Ki blast to finish Broly off - unsuccessfully, and it's from there on that they realize this is no ordinary extremely strong Saiya-jin, it's much, much more than, and they realize it immediately - - as the latest example. Stern, serious, despite all changes, like Piccolo or Tenshinhan. You can't go from a killer or the son of the literal incarnation of evil, a psychotic psychopathic maniac to a nice guy, certain traits will always be there.

Another difference between this Broly and the one we knew up until now, besides all the ones which have to do more with his past and especially and ultimately his character and personality is power. In DBZ Movie, Goku absorbing the power of Vegeta, Mirai no Trunks, Piccolo and Gohan from that era was enough to defeat Broly. I estimate that DBZ Movie 8's Broly's power to be somewhere in the same league as that of Cell in his perfect form (perhaps somewhere in-between before and after self-explosion and subsequent Zenkai). This Broly is stronger than Beerus (!). It's sheer logic: Jiren is stronger than Beerus (or any Hakaishin, for that matter), Broly is - officially confirmed - the strongest enemy/rival Goku and co. ever faced, and the movie takes place after they met and fought Jiren. Goku speculates in the end of the movie that Broly "might" be stronger than Beerus. It's not "might". He is, as a matter of sheer logic. But Goku could very well just be saying something in a relaxed manner, instead of a serious measuring.

Enough for now, I'll add a few more elements later to the review. One last factor: in Battle of Gods, Toriyama said that if Super Saiya-jin God Goku was a 6, Beerus was a 10 and Whis was a 15. If we take this way of measuring, and this is pure and utter speculation, grouping together the relatively high number of new characters and stages achieved throughout the arcs of DBSuper and now the movie, here goes a small exercise (positive or negative criticism is welcome and expected): SSJ Blue Gogeta 13, SSJ Blue Vegetto 13, Goku Migatte no Gokui 12, Broly 11.5, Jiren 11, Gattai Zamasu 9, Kefura 9, Goku SSJ Blue Kaio-Ken 8, Vegeta SSJ Blue Shinka 8, Goku and Vegeta SSJ Blue 7, Golden Freeza 7, Hit 6.5 (This is all highly, highly debatable, it's all mere speculation based on nothing, because there's nothing to base ourselves on regarding these).

Note: It's quite incredible to hear Bulma's voice in this movie. Hiromi Tsuru passed away and was replaced, but if you didn't know that, you honestly and surprisingly couldn't tell the difference. And it 's also funny to note that Raditz sounds exactly as Pilaf, as a child, which doesn't come exactly as a surprise, since the voice actor is the same (Shigeru Chiba).

[mute_proxy]

This Broly is stronger than Beerus (!). It's sheer logic: Jiren is stronger than Beerus (or any Hakaishin, for that matter), Broly is - officially confirmed - the strongest enemy/rival Goku and co. ever faced, and the movie takes place after they met and fought Jiren. Goku speculates in the end of the movie that Broly "might" be stronger than Beerus. It's not "might". He is, as a matter of sheer logic.

Jiren is not stronger than any Hakaishin, that was never stated, they only said as strong/stronger than a Hakaishin. And Broly being the stongest enemy was not officially confirmed. It was just promotional taglines in the manner of "The strongest opponent they ever faced??". That's no difference than "Is this the end for our heroes??", which means nothing, only hype material. Everything else is speculation.

[MaGyunia]

Hmm, no, they said "so the rumours about a mortal which not even a Hakaishin could destroy were true... (referring to Jiren)." This encompasses all Hakaishins, any Hakaishin,

Anyway, just to complete the dramatic changes in Broly's character which you can read in the relatively thorough review a little bit above: DBZ Movie 8's Broly is an out-of-control raging savage psychotic maniac, an ultra-powerful evil sadistic psychopath, a bakemono. But even in his berserk form he displays these traits, he's still somewhat in control deep down, he enjoys causing pain and suffering and death and destruction just for fun. This Broly can't control himself, I bet he doesn't even remembre his fight with Goku and Vegeta, just broken pieces of it, and he certainly can't remembre anything that happened since he transformed into his most powerful form.

[mute_proxy]

Hmm, no, they said "so the rumours about a mortal which not even a Hakaishin could destroy were true... (referring to Jiren)." This encompasses all Hakaishins, any Hakaishin,

Emphasis on the a. It's a generalization, an average of Hakaishin power. He's on the level of a Hakaishin, but not stronger than all of them.

[Broli Broly]

What would have happened if Broly had gone SSJ2 against Blue Gogeta?

[Grimlock]

What would have happened if Broly had gone SSJ2 against Blue Gogeta?

Would be more interesting. But they prefer to come up with some ugly transformations instead.

[emperior]

What would have happened if Broly had gone SSJ2 against Blue Gogeta?

I believe that Broly’s green haired form is basically his Super Saiyan form mixed with Oozaru’s power (which is 10x boost,or even more considering the power is in a normal form and not in a slow Oozaru body).
This is evidenced from when Broly’s pupils re-appear, as he’s being eliminated by Gogeta, because they are shown to be the same color of when he uses his Oozaru power.
Of course Blue is a whole different level, and Broly was struggling with Gogeta when they were both Super Saiyan so his power-up didn’t help and probably neither using Super Saiyan 2 would have been enough, if that’s compatible with Broly’s form. Which it may not even be, as Broly’s power-up has been named “Super Saiyan Full Power” and it’s probably the utmost limit a Saiyan transformation can reach without God powers.

[Broli Broly]

What would have happened if Broly had gone SSJ2 against Blue Gogeta?

I believe that Broly’s green haired form is basically his Super Saiyan form mixed with Oozaru’s power (which is 10x boost,or even more considering the power is in a normal form and not in a slow Oozaru body).
This is evidenced from when Broly’s pupils re-appear, as he’s being eliminated by Gogeta, because they are shown to be the same color of when he uses his Oozaru power.
Of course Blue is a whole different level, and Broly was struggling with Gogeta when they were both Super Saiyan so his power-up didn’t help and probably neither using Super Saiyan 2 would have been enough, if that’s compatible with Broly’s form. Which it may not even be, as Broly’s power-up has been named “Super Saiyan Full Power” and it’s probably the utmost limit a Saiyan transformation can reach without God powers.

Let's put the Oozaru thing aside, since it is what makes Broly a "mutant" Saiyan in Toriyama's reboot. The last transformation Broly used in the movie is officially labeled "Full Power Super Saiyan", and it is obviously not a new label, for it was introduced since the Cell arc. Gohan & Goku reached SSJ2 AFTER they got "Full Power Super Saiyan":

I think SSJ2 should logically be the consequent transformation to Broly's Full Power SSJ.

[Broli Broly]

What would have happened if Broly had gone SSJ2 against Blue Gogeta?

Would be more interesting. But they prefer to come up with some ugly transformations instead.

SSJ2 is not supposed to replace LSSJ/Full Power SSJ! It should be the next transformation after Full Power SSJ.

[WittyUsername]

Hmm, no, they said "so the rumours about a mortal which not even a Hakaishin could destroy were true... (referring to Jiren)." This encompasses all Hakaishins, any Hakaishin,

Emphasis on the a. It's a generalization, an average of Hakaishin power. He's on the level of a Hakaishin, but not stronger than all of them.

Both the anime and the manga have implied that the GoD he’s stronger than is on par with Beerus, so there’s that. Of course, back when BoG was released, it was claimed that Beerus had to use 70 percent of his power to defeat Goku, but that’s obviously been retconned to an absurd degree at this point, so it’s fair to say that these characters are pretty much as strong as Toriyama wants them to be.

[Nightbane]

Post.

Hey man, I'm not trying to be rude or anything but it's really hard to understand what you're saying when you're using a mix of both English translated names and untranslated Japanese names . This isn't meant to be an attack or to mini mod, your post is great and went really in-depth but I just wanted to let you know. Also spelling Kafla as "Kefura" is pretty much the same as calling Trunks by "Torankusu" or Vegeta by "Bejita", technically not incorrect but a little redundant.

Anyways you can spell anything however you want really lol, I hope this helped atleast a little. Anyways this post is getting off topic, who has their tickets to go see the movie? I got mine pre-ordered and everything, only 2 more weeks left!

[supersaiyanZero]

Enough for now, I'll add a few more elements later to the review. One last factor: in Battle of Gods, Toriyama said that if Super Saiya-jin God Goku was a 6, Beerus was a 10 and Whis was a 15. If we take this way of measuring, and this is pure and utter speculation, grouping together the relatively high number of new characters and stages achieved throughout the arcs of DBSuper and now the movie, here goes a small exercise (positive or negative criticism is welcome and expected): SSJ Blue Gogeta 13, SSJ Blue Vegetto 13, Goku Migatte no Gokui 12, Broly 11.5, Jiren 11, Gattai Zamasu 9, Kefura 9, Goku SSJ Blue Kaio-Ken 8, Vegeta SSJ Blue Shinka 8, Goku and Vegeta SSJ Blue 7, Golden Freeza 7, Hit 6.5 (This is all highly, highly debatable, it's all mere speculation based on nothing, because there's nothing to base ourselves on regarding these).

Are you making these names up? Is this how Japanese actually refer to the characters, "Gattai Zamasu"/Goky Migatta no Gokui, Vegeta SSJ Blue Shinka"etc or is this some weird westernization of Japanese language that really is just sort of weird and stupid? Sorry, I really don't know who you're referring to.

[Shaddy]

I feel like it should be simple enough to surmise that "Zamasu" with any word in front of it is referring to his fusion with black, and people have been using Migatte no Gokui and Shinka to refer to Ultra Instinct and Evolved Blue for a while now. Ultra Instinct is even part of a name pun since "Ggkui" contains "Goku". If you're really having that much trouble I don't think there's a lot anyone here can do to help you.

Of course, if that was a post playing dumb as a way of condescending to someone for not spelling the names the way you want them to, I'd recommend you not be needlessly antagonistic and find a better use of your time.

[Grimlock]

Just a matter of hours until I get to see the movie. Hopefully it is at least better than Movie 15 but you never know what to expect these days.

Surely Bardock, Gine and King Vegeta will put a smile (or tears) on my face though (or so I hope too ).

[TheSaiyanGod]

What would have happened if Broly had gone SSJ2 against Blue Gogeta?

I believe that Broly’s green haired form is basically his Super Saiyan form mixed with Oozaru’s power (which is 10x boost,or even more considering the power is in a normal form and not in a slow Oozaru body).
This is evidenced from when Broly’s pupils re-appear, as he’s being eliminated by Gogeta, because they are shown to be the same color of when he uses his Oozaru power.
Of course Blue is a whole different level, and Broly was struggling with Gogeta when they were both Super Saiyan so his power-up didn’t help and probably neither using Super Saiyan 2 would have been enough, if that’s compatible with Broly’s form. Which it may not even be, as Broly’s power-up has been named “Super Saiyan Full Power” and it’s probably the utmost limit a Saiyan transformation can reach without God powers.

Let's put the Oozaru thing aside, since it is what makes Broly a "mutant" Saiyan in Toriyama's reboot. The last transformation Broly used in the movie is officially labeled "Full Power Super Saiyan", and it is obviously not a new label, for it was introduced since the Cell arc. Gohan & Goku reached SSJ2 AFTER they got "Full Power Super Saiyan":

I think SSJ2 should logically be the consequent transformation to Broly's Full Power SSJ.

Well, after Goku and Gohan got out of RoSaT, their SSJ was never called "SSJ Full Power" or something, Vegeta just noticed that they were completely calm even though they were transformed and this resulted in some benefits. Broly's transformation is clearly something very different, and calling himself '' SSJ Full Power '' should mean it's his strongest form.

post

In relation to transformations and animation, Vegeta's battle really was interesting. But other than that, I do not see any really relevant role for him in the movie. He and Paragus barely talked, it would be nice if Paragus talked more about King Vegeta to his son, some information we do not know. And his battle with Broly simply ends abruptly, Vegeta stops fighting and only returns in the end fighting alongside Goku (in a battle that for the most part is CGI and is very fast).

I also disagree with regard to levels of powers such as Kefla being stronger than Vegeta and Goku and Broly being stronger than Jiren, but this is something for another topic

[Hulk10]

So do we even know why this new Broly is just uncontrollable and violent and needs to be under Paragus' control?

Yes indeed. It was hinted in the light novel. Broly, like any other Saiyan, has an instinct for battle. However, his instinct is uniquely "bottomless" and "uncontrollable". The novel says that when SSJ Broly felt Frieza was done for and couldn't fight anymore he left him right away and attacked Whis. In other words, Broly in his Ikari / Berserker mods is just looking for strong opponents to fight against and satisfy his immense Battle instinct.

Does the novel say whether Broly's Ikari form is linked to his Super Saiyan forms?

[TheOne]

I think the dumbest line in the movie is Frieza essentially saying it’d be pointless to train since it’s always going to be 2 vs 1..... WTF


Freeza's strength jumped all the way from being a play toy for Majin Buu, to far surpassing him within 4 months. It pisses me off that they made Freeza's ceiling ridiculously high, then all of a sudden drop it again as soon as they see fit. No matter how you slice it, his rate of growth is much more than Goku and Vegetas. Nobody expects Frieza to improve at the same rate as he did his first 4 months of training, but it’s BS to make it seem like he’s going to give up the idea of training and just settle for finding a 2nd person to fight with (or control Broly).

[MaGyunia]

Just a few quick concepts to add to my mid-term review posted yesterday (I'll add in-depth stuff later on, I just don't have the time now):

- Beerus' role in this movie is negligible, he almost only appears. Upon the reveal of his existence, he was supposed to be an unassailable godly entity, but throughout the entirety of the DBSuper arcs he's always present along with Whis, they basically both became friends with Bulma, Goku and co. and are regulars on Earth.

- Another difference to all others already mentioned between this Broly and DBZ Movie 8's Broly is Broly's age. Toriyama scrapped the trauma caused to Broly by Goku's crying in the pod right next to him, after being born in the same day. In this movie, Broly is actually as old as Vegeta (meaning, five years older than Goku).

A thought:

This is obviously not the typical what-if movie like the thirteen DBZ movies from the nineties, exploring quickly defeated characters in (in most cases) relatively weak stories, just fighting, the typical Piccolo-saving-Gohan scene, etc. Just like Battle of Gods and Fukkatsu no F (but better in terms of quality, at all levels), this is a long-running movie with a solid story and the events are canon. It all began with Yo !! Son Goku and his Friends Return !!. Nobody anticipated it at the time, but that was just a catch-up and the beginning of the process of "resurrecting" Dragon Ball, which resulted in the continuation of the story and the series (manga and anime), three canon long-running movies and an entire TV series with five major arcs.

Another thought:
This is the most dramatic and serious, desperate non-series movie/special ever, along with the Bardock and Trunks TV Specials, with the obvious diferences and adaptations. It might or might not be a coincidence that those were also canon and explored events which actually "happened" (not the Bardock TV's events anymore, actually) and were mentioned numerous times within the context of the actual DBZ series.