Was a statement just put out that SSJ3 Goku = Boohan!?

[Darkprince410]

Vegito could have easily defeated Buu but opted to abuse him just so he could save everyone. So obviously saving everyone is preferable to just beating Buu and letting everyone die. But as a worst case scenario you can't prove it one way or another. That's the point. I could also use that logic to say that Goku notes that Buu's power is getting larger when they escape and there's no indication after that of it ever decreasing.

But then Goku comments on Buu suddenly reaching a state in which they now might be able to do something, relating back to he and Vegeta weakening Buu by removing absorptions.

Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We ’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”

Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

This indicates a significant power drop. If Buu was "almost there" when in his Evil Buu state, but still too strong for them, and suddenly now at a level where they might be able to do something (on top of Goku exclaiming "We did it!" to indicate success), that would point to Buu being weaker than where he was before.

And yes, there is evidence Goku was underpowered. He says he'll make a big hole inside Buu, fails after firing a blast and Super Buu explains it's because they're so small.

Except that actually proves that Goku didn't notice any change in his power, therefore his comparison of himself to Buu would be no different inside than it would be outside of Buu's body.

It should be clear that once Kid Buu appears, everything points to Kid Buu being stronger. The entire last fight only makes sense if he can beat Gohan. Daizenshuu supports this narrative in severa excerpts too. The second episode of DBS labels Goku the strongest only after Buu is defeated. The DBS manga says Earth was facing inevitable destruction except the Genki Dama. The anime version of the ToP shows us that Gohan donating to a Genki Dama multiplies is power. Now we have VJump magazine telling us that at least in the manga version of DBS Kid Buu is strongest of the unfused characters as well. Note that the DBS manga version is created first and foremost for VJump so now both versions of DBS agree at least on this point.

The Daizenshuu speaks of Buu as a whole (as in it's the same Buu from the moment Mr. Buu expelled him to the end), and doesn't differentiate between forms. So, when it's speaking of Buu being the strongest, it's just meaning him in general being the strongest (especially when you follow the other information provided in the same entries). Likewise, remember that the Daizenshuu uses the manga and anime for reference, not just the manga, so part of what it says is going to be skewed by filler content. DBS episode #2 is contradictory, as it's saying that because he beat Buu, he's the strongest, even though he beat Buu through an ability that didn't use his own strength at all. Additionally, this is Vegeta acknowledging him as the strongest, which doesn't necessarily mean he's the strongest.

To emphasize the point the statement that Goku makes while inside Super Buu was in Chapter 508. That released 24 years ago! Since then we have the Kid Buu fight, Daizenshuu, the BoG movie, the DBS anime and the DBS manga all emphasizing the Kid Buu narrative. We might as well argue that Vegeta was stronger than Frieza in Saiyan Saga or Burtur was faster than Frieza on Namek if we're going to keep ignoring new informaiton.

The Daizenshuu doesn't emphasize the Pure Buu narrative, the BoG movie doesn't say either way (and it should be noted that the character bios for said movie puts Gohan stronger than Goku), the DBS manga and anime do not concretely support it at all, etc.

There's a difference between ignoring new information, and analyzing that new information in comparison to what is provided to us originally. The "points" you make are vague and open to interpretation, whereas the points I made are clear and pretty much concrete.

[MisterGuyMan]

But then Goku comments on Buu suddenly reaching a state in which they now might be able to do something, relating back to he and Vegeta weakening Buu by removing absorptions.... This indicates a significant power drop. If Buu was "almost there" when in his Evil Buu state, but still too strong for them, and suddenly now at a level where they might be able to do something (on top of Goku exclaiming "We did it!" to indicate success), that would point to Buu being weaker than where he was before.

It could also refer to how everyone is saved, hidden away and now they're in their normal size too. The first thing they explain when they exit is that they saved everyone and that they have to hide everyone.

Except that actually proves that Goku didn't notice any change in his power, therefore his comparison of himself to Buu would be no different inside than it would be outside of Buu's body.

It doesn't actually matter if he knew. If Goku didn't know then anything he says at this point is suspect. I believe he knew he must be weaker but he underestimated just how much. Because if he's right next to Vegeta and he thinks they're both at full power then any comparison at this point is based on a faulty premise.

And this is Chapter 508. We have a quarter century of new material that you need to ignore if you want to hang your hat on this piece of evidence.

The Daizenshuu speaks of Buu as a whole (as in it's the same Buu from the moment Mr. Buu expelled him to the end), and doesn't differentiate between forms. So, when it's speaking of Buu being the strongest, it's just meaning him in general being the strongest (especially when you follow the other information provided in the same entries). Likewise, remember that the Daizenshuu uses the manga and anime for reference, not just the manga, so part of what it says is going to be skewed by filler content. DBS episode #2 is contradictory, as it's saying that because he beat Buu, he's the strongest, even though he beat Buu through an ability that didn't use his own strength at all. Additionally, this is Vegeta acknowledging him as the strongest, which doesn't necessarily mean he's the strongest.

Daiz is no different from the manga. They can identify which version of Buu if it needs too. One part of Daizenshuu says Goku's feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest. It shows a picture of Goku saluting Kid Buu where Goku is internalizing how amazing Kid Buu is for fighting everyone by himself. Another Daiz entry says Goku defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe. That obviously can only apply to Kid Buu because no one else was defeated by Goku. Another part of Daizenshuu says the original Buu was split off from from Kid Buu indicating Fat Buu was not apart from Kid Buu. You can tell by the context is a specific version is being identified.

The Daizenshuu doesn't emphasize the Pure Buu narrative, the BoG movie doesn't say either way (and it should be noted that the character bios for said movie puts Gohan stronger than Goku), the DBS manga and anime do not concretely support it at all, etc.

The bio for Gohan only says he's stronger than a Saiyan, not Goku specifically. Toriyama tells us that in the BoG movie, everyone is at their strongest. Vegeta becomes enraged, clearly surpassing Gohan, and that's the only time he surpasses Goku as noted by Goku, Vegeta and Roshi.

There's a difference between ignoring new information, and analyzing that new information in comparison to what is provided to us originally. The "points" you make are vague and open to interpretation, whereas the points I made are clear and pretty much concrete.

They're not. You cite one statement inside Super Buu when Goku is not at full power and speculating on fighting a guy that can absorb people to instantly get stronger. By contrast Daizenshuu just says Goku is fellow strongest and that Goku defeated Buu the strongest in the universe. That's not open to interpretion unless you intentionally ignore clearly identifying features. In the anime ToP it's not open to interpretation that Gohan donating to the Genki Dama amplifies his power. It the publication of DBS manga it's not open to interpretation that it clearly establishes that Goku is above Gohan too.

And the difference here is that even if you argue that my arguments are open to interpretation, Daizenshuu, which is the official manga guide, tells us that my interpretation is the official one. The sequel series also confirm that this interpretation is correct as well. That's 24 years to confirmation as to how we're supposed to interprete the narrative.

[Darkprince410]

You do know we've done this song and dance before about half a year ago, right? Same points being brought up here as they were there.

It could also refer to how everyone is saved, hidden away and now they're in their normal size too. The first thing they explain when they exit is that they saved everyone and that they have to hide everyone.

No, when it takes place leaves it clear that he's talking about Buu changing into Pure Buu, not anything to do with everyone else being safe and sound.

It doesn't actually matter if he knew. If Goku didn't know then anything he says at this point is suspect. I believe he knew he must be weaker but he underestimated just how much. Because if he's right next to Vegeta and he thinks they're both at full power then any comparison at this point is based on a faulty premise.

Or that he didn't actually get weaker, but his concept of a "huge" ki blast was just insignificant because of how small he is. He's still at his normal strength, but producing a "huge blast" to him was still an exceptionally tiny one to Buu. Besides, he was in his regular Super Saiyan form, inferior to Gotenks, who in turn couldn't do any actual damage without the Super Ghosts, so it's not like a ki blast from him would have really affected him at normal size either.

Daiz is no different from the manga. They can identify which version of Buu if it needs too. One part of Daizenshuu says Goku's feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest. It shows a picture of Goku saluting Kid Buu where Goku is internalizing how amazing Kid Buu is for fighting everyone by himself. Another Daiz entry says Goku defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe. That obviously can only apply to Kid Buu because no one else was defeated by Goku. Another part of Daizenshuu says the original Buu was split off from from Kid Buu indicating Fat Buu was not apart from Kid Buu. You can tell by the context is a specific version is being identified.

In both of your entries, it's clear that it's just referring to Buu in general, especially the second one you mentioned, because in the same entry it mentions that Goku tried having the younger generation try to resolve the problem (which never happened with Pure Buu).

[BWri]

I can only imagine how terrible is must be to be a DB power scaller when shit like that comes out

It's ridiculous. I'm mostly done with it in the Super era, but occasionally check the current theories. I can't believe their trying to retcon the old stuff now.

To whoever wrote this stuff in v-jump:
Just leave the past alone guys! Please! Super is enough of a mess. Don't add your logic to Z too! Us fans have argued this stuff to death and mostly figured it out. Now you just casually throw a ki grenade in all that and leave us to our devices. No thank you.

#WhenHeadCanonMakesMoreSenseThanOfficialSources

[MisterGuyMan]

No, when it takes place leaves it clear that he's talking about Buu changing into Pure Buu, not anything to do with everyone else being safe and sound.

In that same chapter, they just save everyone, they're happy they did so and the first thing they do is hide everyone. So you can keep telling me what you think it means but for Goku and Vegeta it's clear that keeping everyone safe is a top priority for the fight. It's an even higher priority than actually beating Buu judging by their actions.

Or that he didn't actually get weaker, but his concept of a "huge" ki blast was just insignificant because of how small he is. He's still at his normal strength, but producing a "huge blast" to him was still an exceptionally tiny one to Buu. Besides, he was in his regular Super Saiyan form, inferior to Gotenks, who in turn couldn't do any actual damage without the Super Ghosts, so it's not like a ki blast from him would have really affected him at normal size either.

You're not denying that he's weaker but just explaining why he's wearing. Goku thought his blast could do a lot of damage when it actually did no damage at all. That means it's weaker. And if Goku can still make a big blast but he has to put more energy into it, then that means he's weaker too. You're admitting that to do the normal damage he expects, he has to use more effort. That's weaker.

And as outside confirmation, Dende is actually nearby sensing Buu. Right as Goku is powering up in SSJ, Dende doesn't sense him at all. Sensing a normal SSJ is childn't play for Dende.

In both of your entries, it's clear that it's just referring to Buu in general, especially the second one you mentioned, because in the same entry it mentions that Goku tried having the younger generation try to resolve the problem (which never happened with Pure Buu).

You keep saying "it's clear" this and "it' clear" that. That's just your opinion honestly. The sentence has two parts covering two periods of time. Sentences can do that. This morning I tried to go to work but in the end I got stuck doing no work. That's two different time periods. Goku tried to have the younger generation resolve the problem. That's Fat Buu and Super Buu. In the end Goku defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe. That's Kid Buu. And since you're unclear as to the meaning, Daizenshuu clarifies itself anyway when Goku is stated to be fellow strongest with some one as he salutes Kid Buu. And if you're unclear as to who is fellow strongest with Goku we can refer to Daizenshuu itself who outlines that a full power SS3 Goku isn't a match for Kid Buu. The manga also identifies how only Goku can fight Kid Buu so that clarifies it too.

See I'm not telling what I think they clearly say like you are doing. I just point out what it says. And I cite other parts of Daiz if you believe it says something else.

[Darkprince410]

In that same chapter, they just save everyone, they're happy they did so and the first thing they do is hide everyone. So you can keep telling me what you think it means but for Goku and Vegeta it's clear that keeping everyone safe is a top priority for the fight. It's an even higher priority than actually beating Buu judging by their actions.

It's a top priority, yes. No one is going to question that, but that doesn't change that Goku shouts in excitement and exclaims they may finally be able to do something upon Buu fully reverting to Pure Buu. If he were even stronger than the earlier forms of Buu, where Goku needed fusion and was too scared to even attempt to fight Buu on his own, why would he react in glee at this Buu being something that could be handled more easily and feel fusion isn't necessary?

Goku and Vegeta are removing the absorptions within Buu, weakening him a great deal, but not to the point that Goku wanted yet (the "almost there" tells us that), yet by the point that he was at Evil Buu, he was still too strong for them upon leaving. So while Goku did indeed react in excitement at them saving everyone once they were outside Buu's body, that doesn't change the context of his reaction later.

You're not denying that he's weaker but just explaining why he's wearing. Goku thought his blast could do a lot of damage when it actually did no damage at all. That means it's weaker. And if Goku can still make a big blast but he has to put more energy into it, then that means he's weaker too. You're admitting that to do the normal damage he expects, he has to use more effort. That's weaker.

What I'm saying is that Goku put his normal amount of power into the blast, but it just didn't do anything because of how small the blast is.

Dende doesn't say one thing or the other about sensing Goku though, so I fail to see the point. It'd be one thing if he said that he wondered where Goku and Vegeta were or something else to imply that he couldn't sense them, but he doesn't say anything about them at all, so that's not really evidence.

You keep saying "it's clear" this and "it' clear" that. That's just your opinion honestly. The sentence has two parts covering two periods of time. Sentences can do that. This morning I tried to go to work but in the end I got stuck doing no work. That's two different time periods. Goku tried to have the younger generation resolve the problem. That's Fat Buu and Super Buu. In the end Goku defeated Buu, the strongest in the universe. That's Kid Buu. And since you're unclear as to the meaning, Daizenshuu clarifies itself anyway when Goku is stated to be fellow strongest with some one as he salutes Kid Buu. And if you're unclear as to who is fellow strongest with Goku we can refer to Daizenshuu itself who outlines that a full power SS3 Goku isn't a match for Kid Buu. The manga also identifies how only Goku can fight Kid Buu so that clarifies it too.

Has two parts covering two different periods of time, but both about one singular subject, Buu. It's saying that the younger generation could not solve the problem that Goku eventually did solve, which was Buu in general.

Besides, if you want further evidence saying that Pure Buu can't be the strongest and that Goku isn't as powerful as you're claiming, there's Rou Kaioushin's comment on the matter.

Elder Kaioshin: “I hate to say it, but I don’t think you could win against this current Majin Boo even if the two of you went at him together…”

This is him saying that he doesn't feel that both Goku and Gohan, going at Gotenks Buu together, would be able to beat him. Goku doesn't question it or make any indication to defend that he has a chance. He just accepts that he wouldn't be able to win on his own, and then brings up fusing with Gohan to try and win. This automatically throws out every single thing related to Goku's strength in the Daizenshuu based on your interpretation (if he's weaker than Gotenks Buu, he's weaker than Gohan Buu, and therefore he can't be the strongest or be able to acknowledge Pure Buu as the strongest, etc).

[manwolf]

The issue here is that Goku doesn't try to fight buu until he is in pure form. He try to fuse with Gohan with buu in Gotenks form, when gotenks defuse Goku speak about Gohan and not him to fight Buu. Goku dont try to fight Buu when he absorb Gohan and even when Buu loses all of his absorptions Goku need that Buu losses more power.

So Goku in super saiyan 3 is weaker than Super Buu unless he is stronger that he thinks.

[ZombieVito]

One thing is for sure now.

Gotenks is weak. I don't think anymore that's he's multiple times stronger than Goku.

I'm also thinking of nerfing the kids.

[Hugo Boss]

So, they decided to make Goku stronger than Gotenks.

But that conflicts with the manga.

Hell, even Goku says flat out he is weaker than Evil Boo.

A lot of modern stuff conflicts with the manga, but if they say Goku is stronger than Evil Boo, then Goku was simply wrong about his strength.

[ZombieVito]

A lot of modern stuff conflicts with the manga, but if they say Goku is stronger than Evil Boo, then Goku was simply wrong about his strength.

But that's not what it says?

I read it as Gohan being on par with SS3 Goku more than anything.

[RandomGuy96]

You can just ignore V-Jump tidbits you know. Another one said that Namek SS Goku was exactly equal to Buu arc SS Goku.

[theherodjl]

V Jump has also said that SSJ Gogeta is exactly twice as strong as LSSJ Broly so that means that everyone in M8 & M10 were fighting an opponent that required a SSJ fusion of Boo arc Goku & Vegeta to beat and also that M8 Goku & the rest of the battered Z Senshi could donate such energy for one attack in order to defeat Broly.
So its SSJ Gogeta(M12) >/= Toei Punch Goku(M8) > LSSJ Broly(M8/M10) > Janemba(full power) > Base Gogeta.

But if we're seriously going to justify V Jump's claim on SSJ3 Goku = Boohan then I just subscribe to the idea that Goku gained a lot more power from being brought back to life. Its worth noting that Vegeta tried fighting Pure Boo in base form after being wished back to life so maybe there's some kind of bullshit reasoning that full blood Saiyans receive Zenkais from returning from the dead.

[Hugo Boss]

A lot of modern stuff conflicts with the manga, but if they say Goku is stronger than Evil Boo, then Goku was simply wrong about his strength.

But that's not what it says?

I read it as Gohan being on par with SS3 Goku more than anything.

It says Gohan-Boo is equal to SS3 Goku, so logically he is stronger than Evil Boo and SS3 Gotenks by proxy.

[TobyS]

A lot of modern stuff conflicts with the manga, but if they say Goku is stronger than Evil Boo, then Goku was simply wrong about his strength.

But that's not what it says?

I read it as Gohan being on par with SS3 Goku more than anything.

It says Gohan-Boo is equal to SS3 Goku, so logically he is stronger than Evil Boo and SS3 Gotenks by proxy.

It says he gained strength on par with SS3 Goku, it's ambiguous as to whether he got an addition equivalent to SS3 goku or he now has a total power equivalent to SS3 Goku...

Either way it's bullshit. Goku was scared to fight Super Buu, wanted to permanently (as far as he knew) fuse with his own son to beat Gotenks Buu (whos weaker than Gohan Buu) it makes no sense.

[Hugo Boss]

But that's not what it says?

I read it as Gohan being on par with SS3 Goku more than anything.

It says Gohan-Boo is equal to SS3 Goku, so logically he is stronger than Evil Boo and SS3 Gotenks by proxy.

It says he gained strength on par with SS3 Goku, it's ambiguous as to whether he got an addition equivalent to SS3 goku or he now has a total power equivalent to SS3 Goku...

Either way it's bullshit. Goku was scared to fight Super Buu, wanted to permanently (as far as he knew) fuse with his own son to beat Gotenks Buu (whos weaker than Gohan Buu) it makes no sense.

By absorbing Gohan, Boo reached a level of strength on par with SS3 Goku. That’s what it says. No ambiguity here. This new info either creates a plot hole or we simply assume Goku didn’t want to rely on SS3, given that he wasn’t used to it.

[ZombieVito]

It says Gohan-Boo is equal to SS3 Goku, so logically he is stronger than Evil Boo and SS3 Gotenks by proxy.

Then it can be discarded then.

[Hugo Boss]

It says Gohan-Boo is equal to SS3 Goku, so logically he is stronger than Evil Boo and SS3 Gotenks by proxy.

Then it can be discarded then.

You can ignore/accept it if you want.

[MisterGuyMan]

It's a top priority, yes. No one is going to question that, but that doesn't change that Goku shouts in excitement and exclaims they may finally be able to do something upon Buu fully reverting to Pure Buu. If he were even stronger than the earlier forms of Buu, where Goku needed fusion and was too scared to even attempt to fight Buu on his own, why would he react in glee at this Buu being something that could be handled more easily and feel fusion isn't necessary?

Goku and Vegeta are removing the absorptions within Buu, weakening him a great deal, but not to the point that Goku wanted yet (the "almost there" tells us that), yet by the point that he was at Evil Buu, he was still too strong for them upon leaving. So while Goku did indeed react in excitement at them saving everyone once they were outside Buu's body, that doesn't change the context of his reaction later.

It matters because if they go outside Buu can just absorb everyone again defeating the entire purpose of their most recent Victory. And Goku and Vegeta weren't at full power so they had no expectation that they'd regain their size.

And, failing that, this is still before Kid Buu appears so if none of those float your boat, the Kid Buu arc's new narrative supplants anything that happens here. The constant reinforcement of this narrative by 25 years of guides, sequels etc should seal the deal.

What I'm saying is that Goku put his normal amount of power into the blast, but it just didn't do anything because of how small the blast is.

That's a long way of saying Goku was weaker. He put the same amount of power but it didn't do anything. That means Goku is weaker.

Dende doesn't say one thing or the other about sensing Goku though, so I fail to see the point. It'd be one thing if he said that he wondered where Goku and Vegeta were or something else to imply that he couldn't sense them, but he doesn't say anything about them at all, so that's not really evidence.

When Satan asks about the tremors, Dende Goku is fighting. So we know Dende is acknowledging Goku's presence. When Satan asks how Dende knows they're close, Dende says he's following Buu's Ki. If he sensed Goku he'd be following Goku's ki as well not just Buu's. When Goku turns SSJ and charges a blast, Dende is wondering why Buu is standing still indicating that he's not aware that Goku is fighting Buu at the moment. Recall how he explains to Satan that Goku is fighting Buu when asked about it.

Has two parts covering two different periods of time, but both about one singular subject, Buu. It's saying that the younger generation could not solve the problem that Goku eventually did solve, which was Buu in general.

At first I wanted to buy a red car but in the end I bought a blue car. So obviously I'm talking about cars in general right? Well not quite because I'm clearly identifying two different cars by identifying the colors.

And if you want more context, Daizenshuu elaborates this further when is has Goku salute Kid Buu with the excerpt saying Goku's feelings are only understood by his fellow strongest.

Besides, if you want further evidence saying that Pure Buu can't be the strongest and that Goku isn't as powerful as you're claiming, there's Rou Kaioushin's comment on the matter.

Elder Kaioshin: “I hate to say it, but I don’t think you could win against this current Majin Boo even if the two of you went at him together…”

This is him saying that he doesn't feel that both Goku and Gohan, going at Gotenks Buu together, would be able to beat him. Goku doesn't question it or make any indication to defend that he has a chance. He just accepts that he wouldn't be able to win on his own, and then brings up fusing with Gohan to try and win. This automatically throws out every single thing related to Goku's strength in the Daizenshuu based on your interpretation (if he's weaker than Gotenks Buu, he's weaker than Gohan Buu, and therefore he can't be the strongest or be able to acknowledge Pure Buu as the strongest, etc).

Old Kaio never actually sees Goku fight. And again this is before Kid Buu appears. Once Kid Buu appears, all the new information supplants the old information and we see everyone, including Old Kaio, ignore Gohan as a viable option. Goku is then stated to be the only one who can fight Kid Buu and when Gohan donates to the Genki Dama and Goku immediately acknowledges Gohan by name and then says it's not enough. Then when Kid Buu is defeated Goku says everyone would have died without the Genki Dama.

So you're citing obsolete information. All the Kid Buu saga information clearly is trying to establish Kid Buu as the bigger threat. Daiz, DBS anime, DBS manga and even Kai supports this new information so I ask why you keep holding to older information?

[miguelnuva1]

A had a friend who argued that Mystic Gohan equaled SSJ3 Goku but Gohan had no stamina issues for years, he'll be happy now.

[Darkprince410]

Old Kaio never actually sees Goku fight. And again this is before Kid Buu appears. Once Kid Buu appears, all the new information supplants the old information and we see everyone, including Old Kaio, ignore Gohan as a viable option. Goku is then stated to be the only one who can fight Kid Buu and when Gohan donates to the Genki Dama and Goku immediately acknowledges Gohan by name and then says it's not enough. Then when Kid Buu is defeated Goku says everyone would have died without the Genki Dama.

So you're citing obsolete information. All the Kid Buu saga information clearly is trying to establish Kid Buu as the bigger threat. Daiz, DBS anime, DBS manga and even Kai supports this new information so I ask why you keep holding to older information?

It doesn't matter that Rou Kaioushin hadn't seen Goku fight. The fact remains that Goku acknowledged it and accepted it at face value, thus it holds weight. Goku is only stated to be the only one who could defeat Pure Buu when it was just him and Vegeta available to fight, and Gohan only donated genki, not his total ki, so his actual capacity against Buu isn't expressed by what his genki could do against Buu.

I'm not citing obsolete information at all. The Daizenshuu speaks of Buu in general, not Pure Buu specifically, the DBS anime and manga are vague at best, and Kai only supports it because it retains the anime's filler content on the matter. Nothing in the original manga (which still holds the most weight) supports Pure Buu being stronger than Evil Buu.