Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Discussion specifically regarding the "refreshed" TV version of DBZ created in Japan for its 20th anniversary, including individual threads for each episode.

Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff

User avatar
KBABZ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by KBABZ » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:13 am

This is a strange question that only just occurred to me whilst watching DBZ Kai with a friend today before seeing the Broly movie. Is the audio quality of the Kikuchi replacement score in Kai any better than the original Z anime?

User avatar
DHM211
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1109
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:48 pm

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by DHM211 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:02 am

Compared to the Optical Japanese audio and Funimations shitty 5.1 audio mix for the Orange Bricks/Blu-Rays? Yeah, Kai Kikuchi sounds better.

However, when compared to Dragon Box the movies, they sound pretty much identical.

User avatar
JohnnyCashKami
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:16 pm

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:35 am

The Kikuchi score in Kai does sound great but it's usually the same BGMs throughout an episode.

User avatar
KBABZ
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:38 pm
Location: The tallest tower in West City

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by KBABZ » Sun Jan 27, 2019 12:17 pm

JohnnyCashKami wrote:The Kikuchi score in Kai does sound great but it's usually the same BGMs throughout an episode.
Haha, I'm not disputing that!

User avatar
Metalwario64
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6175
Joined: Thu Feb 07, 2008 1:02 am
Location: Namek

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by Metalwario64 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:02 pm

KBABZ wrote:This is a strange question that only just occurred to me whilst watching DBZ Kai with a friend today before seeing the Broly movie. Is the audio quality of the Kikuchi replacement score in Kai any better than the original Z anime?
Yes, because the series uses the old M&E tapes and the tracks in Kai are either from the music CDs or whatever source (maybe digitally at this point) they had them stored on.
"Kenshi is sitting down right now drawing his mutated spaghetti monsters thinking he's the shit..."--Neptune Kai
"90% of you here don't even know what you're talking about (there are a few that do). But the things you say about these releases are nonsense and just plain dumb. Like you Metalwario64"--final_flash

ManuGem
Newbie
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:47 pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by ManuGem » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:20 pm

One thing I noticed (but I watched Kai only by streaming wabsites + excerpts on youtube) is that these BGMs from Kikuchi in Kai seem pretty low pitched, compared to the original, that sounds often almost half a tone lower.

It's disturbing, because when DBZ was on french television, it was exactly the opposite: the BGM sounded high-pitched, I think it's because of a difference in format (number of images per second) compared to japanese television.
Many of these BGMs are in F minor, so I used to hear them in F sharp minor on TV, then I rediscovered them in F minor with CDs and internet ... And now I hear them almost in E minor in Kai: -)

User avatar
gokaiblue
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 400
Joined: Tue Mar 24, 2015 9:40 am

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by gokaiblue » Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:22 pm

ManuGem wrote:One thing I noticed (but I watched Kai only by streaming wabsites + excerpts on youtube) is that these BGMs from Kikuchi in Kai seem pretty low pitched, compared to the original, that sounds often almost half a tone lower.

It's disturbing, because when DBZ was on french television, it was exactly the opposite: the BGM sounded high-pitched, I think it's because of a difference in format (number of images per second) compared to japanese television.
Many of these BGMs are in F minor, so I used to hear them in F sharp minor on TV, then I rediscovered them in F minor with CDs and internet ... And now I hear them almost in E minor in Kai: -)
Never noticed that. Will have to take another listen to them.
Looking for these rare items/information:

Any information or recordings pertaining to Dragon Ball Z's syndicated run on WAWB
Any information regarding the stations that carried the origin Dragon Ball in the USA
Dragon Box (any deals would be nice)
Shonen Jumps with Dragon Ball in them

Danfun64
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1383
Joined: Sun Oct 25, 2015 3:29 pm

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by Danfun64 » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:29 am

Strange. It always seemed to me that the music in Kikuchi Kai was the right pitch. Maybe the sources you watch Kai in have it sped up to 25fps without changing pitch, then reverting to 24fps or 24000/1001 fps with a pitch change.
Robo4900 wrote:Mouse is BRILLIANT SCIENTIST dumb.
CAT LOVES FOOD dumb.
Jack is just kinda dumb.

ManuGem
Newbie
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:47 pm
Location: Paris, France

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by ManuGem » Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:54 am

Danfun64 wrote:Strange. It always seemed to me that the music in Kikuchi Kai was the right pitch. Maybe the sources you watch Kai in have it sped up to 25fps without changing pitch, then reverting to 24fps or 24000/1001 fps with a pitch change.
Yes, it's possible. Anyway, with the sources I used, I'm sure of what I observed (although it may not be quite a semitone, but it was really low pitched)

User avatar
SqueakyBoots
Beyond Newbie
Posts: 137
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:00 pm

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by SqueakyBoots » Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:08 pm

ManuGem wrote:One thing I noticed (but I watched Kai only by streaming wabsites + excerpts on youtube) is that these BGMs from Kikuchi in Kai seem pretty low pitched, compared to the original, that sounds often almost half a tone lower.

It's disturbing, because when DBZ was on french television, it was exactly the opposite: the BGM sounded high-pitched, I think it's because of a difference in format (number of images per second) compared to japanese television.
Many of these BGMs are in F minor, so I used to hear them in F sharp minor on TV, then I rediscovered them in F minor with CDs and internet ... And now I hear them almost in E minor in Kai: -)
If you were watching clips on youtube, then it's likely whoever uploaded them adjusted the pitch of the audio as a means of automatic copyright flag prevention.

User avatar
JohnnyCashKami
Temporarily Banned
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:16 pm

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Sun Feb 03, 2019 5:33 pm

Danfun64 wrote:Strange. It always seemed to me that the music in Kikuchi Kai was the right pitch. Maybe the sources you watch Kai in have it sped up to 25fps without changing pitch, then reverting to 24fps or 24000/1001 fps with a pitch change.
That's possible. The Catalàn version of Kai TFC was sped up and sounds really weird how the music goes by so fast.

User avatar
GhostEmperorX
Regular
Posts: 602
Joined: Sun Jan 05, 2020 1:53 pm

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by GhostEmperorX » Wed Feb 19, 2020 3:17 pm

ManuGem wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:20 pm Many of these BGMs are in F minor, so I used to hear them in F sharp minor on TV, then I rediscovered them in F minor with CDs and internet ... And now I hear them almost in E minor in Kai: -)
Excellent, someone else who noticed it. However I didn't hear much of a difference in pitch, it still sounded the same.

User avatar
Valerius Dover
I'm, pretty, cozy, here...
Posts: 1926
Joined: Tue Dec 10, 2013 5:47 pm
Location: Somewhere

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by Valerius Dover » Wed Feb 19, 2020 6:11 pm

There's definitely no difference in pitch with the tracks. Can clarify that I own both Z and Kai DVDs.
Now available on Twitter.
https://twitter.com/ValeriusDover

The Internet summed up in four words.
"This sucks. Make more."

User avatar
TheBlackPaladin
I Live Here
Posts: 3772
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:05 pm

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Sun Feb 23, 2020 6:14 pm

ManuGem wrote: Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:20 pm One thing I noticed (but I watched Kai only by streaming wabsites + excerpts on youtube) is that these BGMs from Kikuchi in Kai seem pretty low pitched, compared to the original, that sounds often almost half a tone lower.

It's disturbing, because when DBZ was on french television, it was exactly the opposite: the BGM sounded high-pitched, I think it's because of a difference in format (number of images per second) compared to japanese television.
Many of these BGMs are in F minor, so I used to hear them in F sharp minor on TV, then I rediscovered them in F minor with CDs and internet ... And now I hear them almost in E minor in Kai: -)
That's all a video-reformatting thing.

The standard framerate for NTSC video, which is what North America, South America, and Japan use, is 24 frames per second. On the other hand, the PAL video format, which is what Europe uses, is 25 frames per second. An easy way to convert NTSC footage to PAL footage is to simply speed the footage up by 4.something% (not sure of the exact difference). Speeding up footage results in its accompanying audio sounding higher-pitched, by approximately one semi-tone.

So, all that to say, as a consequence of converting NTSC footage to PAL footage, the footage is sped up and slightly higher pitched in a lot of European dubs as a result--not just dubs of DBZ for that matter, but of all dubs of stuff that was originally in NTSC format and converted to PAL format.

However, during the format conversion process, some companies take the liberty of lowering the pitch by the same amount that the film is sped up by. When that happens, while the footage is still a tad faster than it was in Japan, the original pitch of the music is at least retained. I've also heard there's a more complicated telecine process for converting NTSC to PAL where both the original pitch and the original speed of the film are maintained, but that this is not the preferable option because it results in some quality loss.

So, that leaves us with three conversion methods:

Method 1: Speed the film up while also raising the pitch.
Method 2: Speed the film up, but without raising the pitch.
Method 3: The telecine process.

Now, back to what you mentioned earlier. You said you saw these clips on YouTube, right? Well, for whatever reason, one of the most popularly-shared sources of video for the French dub of Kai is PAL footage that was slowed back down to NTSC speed. The thing is, in the case of the French dub of Kai, the producers did what I mentioned earlier--sped up the framerate, but lowered the pitch so that it would be the same pitch as in the original Japanese version. So, when that PAL footage that kept the original pitch was slowed down to NTSC speed, the pitch was also lowered.

In other words, the French dub of Kai converted the footage from NTSC to PAL using Method 2, but the clips that are commonly posted online are clips that were re-converted to NTSC using the opposite of Method 1--slowing down the footage and lowering the pitch. This created the misconception that the music was "lower" than it was in DBZ.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

User avatar
TheGreatness25
I Live Here
Posts: 4922
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:36 am

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by TheGreatness25 » Fri Jun 12, 2020 10:30 am

I don't know, I just recently watched Kai 1.0 through and while it is a bit jarring when the Kikuchi score just suddenly takes over (the US release), I kind of enjoyed it. I think that what I noticed, was that a lot of the music was from the original Dragon Ball.

Do you think that it would be better if they used the variations of CHA-LA-HEAD-CHA-LA? Obviously the original Z series had different variations of it, while it wasn't used in Kai presumably because CHA-LA wasn't the intro anymore.

Personally, based on what kind of series Kai was, I think they should've just updated the original Kikuchi score from the get-go (like they did for "Kakarot"). It was a refresh grounded by the original Z series and their music might've been better off that way too. And the whole Yamamoto scandal could've been avoided. But hey, who knew?

User avatar
ArmenianPepsi
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:02 am

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:06 am

I've been through Kai 1.0 recently, and I prefer Kikuchi Kai over the new Yamamoto score.

I can't describe it well, but there is just this feeling of dissonance. Like when I hear the Faulconer score. The music doesnt match the visuals in my head. It just feels off. Yamamoto's Kai score would be perfect for the video games, and other more modern DB media. But putting this new score over what is essentially redrawn classic footage just feels wrong. Really distracted me when watching.

Makes me wonder. Are there such thing as Kikuchi score replacements for episodes 1 - 52 out there? If so, is there any way I could obtain copys of them to replace my existing ones for 1 - 52 with Yamamoto score?
First time Dragon Ball fan as of March 2020. Still learning the ropes. Nothing much else to say,

User avatar
TheBlackPaladin
I Live Here
Posts: 3772
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:05 pm

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by TheBlackPaladin » Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:49 am

ArmenianPepsi wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:06 amMakes me wonder. Are there such thing as Kikuchi score replacements for episodes 1 - 52 out there? If so, is there any way I could obtain copys of them to replace my existing ones for 1 - 52 with Yamamoto score?
The answers to your questions, respectively, are "yes," and "quite easily."

When Toei made the decision to replace the Yamamoto score with the Kikuchi score, the ones most immediately effected were the few that were left to air, but they went back and re-mixed literally every single episode that had aired previously as well. Those new audio mixes, in turn, were also provided to FUNimation. So, all of the most current Kai DVD/Blu-Ray releases from FUNimation should have the Kikuchi replacement score, episodes 1-52 most definitely included.
A "rather haggard" translation of a line from Future Gohan in DBZ, provided to FUNimation by Toei:
"To think of fighting that is this fun...so, it was pleasant fight, as many as, therefore is a feeling which is good the fight where."

User avatar
ArmenianPepsi
Beyond-the-Beyond Newbie
Posts: 396
Joined: Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:02 am

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by ArmenianPepsi » Sun Jun 28, 2020 2:52 am

TheBlackPaladin wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:49 am
ArmenianPepsi wrote: Thu Jun 18, 2020 1:06 amMakes me wonder. Are there such thing as Kikuchi score replacements for episodes 1 - 52 out there? If so, is there any way I could obtain copys of them to replace my existing ones for 1 - 52 with Yamamoto score?
The answers to your questions, respectively, are "yes," and "quite easily."

When Toei made the decision to replace the Yamamoto score with the Kikuchi score, the ones most immediately effected were the few that were left to air, but they went back and re-mixed literally every single episode that had aired previously as well. Those new audio mixes, in turn, were also provided to FUNimation. So, all of the most current Kai DVD/Blu-Ray releases from FUNimation should have the Kikuchi replacement score, episodes 1-52 most definitely included.
Sorry for the late reply, but thanks a ton for the info :thumbup:
First time Dragon Ball fan as of March 2020. Still learning the ropes. Nothing much else to say,

User avatar
G1GACANN0N
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Nov 22, 2012 12:23 am
Location: Edmonton, Alberta

Re: Kikuchi Kai: Is the music quality better?

Post by G1GACANN0N » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:31 am

Still pissed they didn't use M1311 anywhere in Kai when the rest of the Return of Cooler soundtrack is used almost exclusively.

Post Reply