Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

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Cursed Lemon
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:13 am

Bardock's story was never good. So it hardly matters to me if it gets retconned.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Jan 30, 2019 11:52 am

The only retcon that bothers me is potara fusion. I guess Fat Buu is getting retconed in this new arc, maybe is for the best.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ABED » Wed Jan 30, 2019 1:53 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:Bardock's story was never good. So it hardly matters to me if it gets retconned.
What's wrong with the original Bardock story?
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ZodaEX » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:20 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:Bardock's story was never good. So it hardly matters to me if it gets retconned.
No Bardocks story was the best arc of the DBZ anime. You should rewatch it a few times.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by JohnnyCashKami » Wed Jan 30, 2019 3:39 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:Bardock's story was never good. So it hardly matters to me if it gets retconned.
That's rather an unpopular opinion but hey, you've got your right to it. The Bardock special is one of the best parts of Dragon Ball Z which covered important aspects and my God, Solid State Scouter is a classic.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Wed Jan 30, 2019 4:46 pm

Bardock's story in the original manga/anime was skeletal. The exact same story was told in Father Of Goku. The exact same story was told in Super Broly. The exact same story was told in Minus. Then there was Episode Of Bardock which was terrible. All of these stories are dumb because aside from sending Goku away, nothing Bardock does actually matters.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ABED » Wed Jan 30, 2019 5:28 pm

Cursed Lemon wrote:Bardock's story in the original manga/anime was skeletal. The exact same story was told in Father Of Goku. The exact same story was told in Super Broly. The exact same story was told in Minus. Then there was Episode Of Bardock which was terrible. All of these stories are dumb because aside from sending Goku away, nothing Bardock does actually matters.
It's a tragedy. It's the whole point. Do you feel the same about the Trunks TV special? What's wrong with the story being short and to the point?
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:33 pm

ABED wrote:It's a tragedy. It's the whole point. Do you feel the same about the Trunks TV special? What's wrong with the story being short and to the point?
It's a tragedy by definition, it's not much of a tragedy in the realm of a story. It's not like Bardock ever goes through character development or some kind of harrowing trial only to come up short. It's just a piece of lore in the grand story of Dragon Ball. So why we need five separate iterations on it is beyond me, and if it gets retconned? Oh well, that's just an opportunity to make the story more interesting (which they really didn't). Bardock had some on-screen charisma in Super Broly, that was my baseline requirement for him being present and I was satisfied. I don't care that the saiyans in the movie weren't depicted as being severe and brutal, I don't care that Minus is now canon, and I definitely don't care that the psychic angle is gone.

As for your comparison, Trunks does go through character development and does come up short (not necessarily in that order), and we see the background that explains the current state of his character. That's a STORY, that's what makes the Trunks special good - also the fact that we didn't have to see it reiterated every single time someone mentions an android helps with the appreciation of it.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ABED » Wed Jan 30, 2019 6:53 pm

I agree that five iterations is overkill, but the fights were good and the scene where Bardock takes on . Both Bardock and Trunks went through a trial of sorts. Both lost people and tried to get revenge. I like the Trunks special but at least Bardock was able to beat up several of Freeza's henchmen (in a very memorable scene) before barely surviving Dodoria and ultimately dying at Freeza's hand. Trunks just fights and loses badly both times. There's only so long I can deal with a one sided fight.
Trunks does go through character development
What development? Realizing he has NO chance of winning and has to go back to the past isn't much of a development. The only difference is Trunks lives long enough to decide to go back in time. We saw the background in a few "flashbacks" in the anime so it's not like we needed to see it in order to understand his plight. Seeing it doesn't really make it a worthwhile story to tell.

Honestly, it feels like you read some books or blogs about writing with very dogmatic rules, but not every story needs character development.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:22 pm

ABED wrote:but the fights were good
Well that's certainly debatable
What development? Realizing he has NO chance of winning and has to go back to the past isn't much of a development.
And your counter with Bardock is...?
Honestly, it feels like you read some books or blogs about writing with very dogmatic rules, but not every story needs character development.
Every TV special needs character development.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ABED » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:37 pm

Every TV special needs character development.
Why? What's your basis for that statement? I get that as a preference but TV specials don't need it to qualify as a story or a good one.
And your counter with Bardock is...?
What I wrote before. How was Trunks deciding to go to the past character development? I don't need a change in his character, I simply need an interesting character to do interesting things and change isn't inherently good or bad. Goku Jr. changes, but it's not that interesting. But now that we're talking about it, Bardock dismissing his son but smiling when he sees him stand up to Freeza is something of a change and quite satisfying.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Cursed Lemon » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:10 pm

ABED wrote:Why? What's your basis for that statement? I get that as a preference but TV specials don't need it to qualify as a story or a good one.
How in the world are you supposed to create investment without development? I don't care about Bardock because there's nothing to care about; he's a backdrop to current events, a part of the Dragon Ball mythos. That's why having his own special was ridiculous. That's why five iterations of literally the exact same story is beyond ridiculous, because it's not even a good story. It's not even a story.

"BUT LEMON," I can hear you thinking, "BROLY AS A CONCEPT HAS NO CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT, WHY DOES HE GET A PASS".

1) They retconned him specifically to give him character development. And while very basic, it was well received and helped to create some amount of connection that wasn't there before. That's why when Broly was about to be killed by Gogeta, it mattered.

2) Originally, he was a one-off. Not a five-off with the same story.

3) ...Bardock ain't Broly.
What I wrote before. How was Trunks deciding to go to the past character development? I don't need a change in his character, I simply need an interesting character to do interesting things and change isn't inherently good or bad.
Bardock is the only main character in his special. If he doesn't develop, nothing happens.

And, predictably, nothing happened.

The Trunks special wasn't about fighting. It was about Trunks' connection with Gohan, and how much it destroyed him when Gohan died. That was the development that made the Trunks special good. Super Broly, meanwhile, is about fighting, and even that movie had some character development in it.

Episode Of Bardock, meanwhile, is not about development, or fighting, or a story that makes a lick of sense whatsoever.

It's a movie about nothing. #SeinfeldBassline
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by ABED » Wed Jan 30, 2019 8:30 pm

How in the world are you supposed to create investment without development?
Are the characters interesting, is the story engaging? In a martial arts story, is the action good? Raiders of the Lost Ark has no character development. Indy doesn't really change. Hell, he doesn't affect the outcome of the plot. It's still a great movie.
It's not even a story.
It IS a story. There's conflict, there are characters with goals, there's a climax, etc. It feels like you boil storytelling down to a single element and it couldn't be further from the truth.
That was the development that made the Trunks special good.
That's not character development. It's a power up unlocked by grief (in the anime at least). Trunks doesn't change. I guess you could argue he changes his mind by the end about going to the past, but if we go with that, Bardock decides to rebel against Freeza.

I do agree that it is a story that didn't need to be told, just like Broly didn't need 4 movies. I haven't even see the latest film, and I might even enjoy it, but what does bother me is the trend of going back to the well. It's not a trend I like in DB or storytelling in general.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Sin » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:59 am

ABED wrote:You could argue Super is one giant retcon. Goku asks for Buu to be reincarnated because he wants a good fight against the most powerful being he had ever faced. However, in light of the news that Buu is nowhere near as powerful as numerous characters, the manga's ending doesn't work.
Don't worry, it'll all come together at the end when Whis wipes everyone's memories.

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Re: Are all these retcons ruining Dragonball ?

Post by Kokonoe » Thu Jan 31, 2019 8:46 am

Can't ruin the original even if something newer comes out that's lower in quality.

That said, is it ruining what Dragon Ball could potentially be in modern times? I'd say yes, from a narrative standpoint it's suffering hard at the moment. Well, at least until the Broly movie where we're getting proper characterization and setups for future content. So guess we'll see where that goes.

I can forgive a few retcons (thought it still bites), if a story can pick itself up later on.

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