Sexual Assault: Fiction and Reality

[Saikyo no Senshi]

The poster of that thread is also me lol. But, eh why do all that math when you clearly have an age group that represents the most fans which is the 30-39 age group. And, hey if you add up the 20-39 age group it is significantly higher than 5-19 going by that logic.

Yeah, you can say its a family show. But, it skews older as opposed to younger. The current Broli film also had a similar demographic btw. It is a recurring pattern with this franchise. These numbers give you a general idea upon which you can draw conclusions and what companies who make the show do too.

EDIT: I don't want to derail this thread with statistics and demographic nonsense, so I apologize for going off-topic. Some other time maybe. The actual topic is more important.

[TheZFighter]

Well, I never found Roshi's sexual antics funny at all. I always felt them as forced humor. That's why the censorship of the scenes of his antics in Super by CN didn't bother me.

I find this with Dragon Ball and a lot of anime/ manga I follow in general. Probably a cultural thing, or it might even just be a me thing.

Using the Pokemon anime as another example, since day one it has always been littered with running gags and repetition, and I don't find them funny. In fact, they get old real quick.

The reason I like a specific series is because of the lore, the story, the characters, etc, not the humour. Even during me childhood, the apparent humour aspect has been completely wasted on me, personally.

Honestly I don't think my Dragon Ball experience would be massively different without Roshi's perversion. In this day and age, with others generally a lot more sensitive/ a lot less tolerant (depending on how you look at it), maybe there is no place for it.

[Kunzait_83]

To put in a more positive modern example, I don't think I'm the only one who felt that the scene in the S-Broly movie where the drunk Frieza Soldier approached Cheelai had some sexual undertones to it, so it was nice to see Broly show his kind character by standing up for her and driving the drunk away for his deservedly heinous behaviour (I know the Frieza soldier is technically a villain, but there's a big difference to me between Frieza and, say, Cui, in terms of villainy).

I mean... Freeza and Kiwi are both, at the end of the day here, mass murderers. Freeza might be a notch or so higher because he's the ringleader and the root of the killing, but that hardly makes any of his minions who carry out those mass killings for him (including Kiwi) to be exactly blameless here. Kiwi's just as much unapologetic murderous filth as Freeza is ultimately, as are the vast overwhelming majority of his various bottom-rung minions. There really isn't much point in splitting hairs between them in terms of "who's worse". They've all got gallons of innocent blood on their hands.

And I agree: scenes like that Cheelai bit are VERY much a great, GREAT deal far removed from stuff like Muten Roshi's running perv gags. I don't have ANY problems whatsoever with scenes depicting sexual assault (attempted or successful), even in children's shows, so long as the underlying dynamics of what's happening are coming from a sound moral framework.

As has been noted many times, the Muten Roshi jokes aren't negative purely because they deal with sexual jokes, or even sexual harassment in and of itself: they're negative because the underlying assumption inherent to those jokes is that sexual harassment/assault is "no big deal" and something to be laughed off. Its a textbook example of what that whole "boys will be boys" bit from that recent Gillette commercial (that raised such a stupidly ridiculous stir) was commenting on.

When sexual assault is dealt with with an appropriate level of severity and understanding for what it is (it can even be mined for humor, albeit VERY DARK humor, and you'd damn well better think through the implications of the joke very, very carefully first), then I don't have ANY problems whatsoever with it showing up wherever in whatever media made for any age group. These things SHOULD be confronted and dealt with for what they are head-on, and I think its plenty healthy for even media aimed at kids to tackle it, so long as they do it well (and no, that doesn't mean that they can only do it in a hamfisted "after school special" sort of way: I'd argue that that approach is also fairly ineffective).

With the Cheelai scene, a clear-cut villain was getting too-familiar with her in a context that is CLEARLY indicated to be not at all a laughing matter: and Broli steps in to help deal with it accordingly. Totally, 100% fine, and very much in line with that bit in the Red Ribbon arc where Goku stops a couple of Red Ribbon soldiers from trying to rape Bulma (another scene that I also have zero problems with).

[WittyUsername]

I’ve come to the realization that Dragon Ball probably shouldn’t have ever had any sexual themes in it to begin with. If something is geared towards children, don’t put anything perverted in it at all. It’s the same problem I have with the DC Animated Universe. If writers wants to be perverts, they should stick to directing pornos or something. I’m not trying to sound like a prude here, but kids have no business being introduced to anything sexual in nature. It’s creepy.

[TheZFighter]

I’ve come to the realization that Dragon Ball probably shouldn’t have ever had any sexual themes in it to begin with. If something is geared towards children, don’t put anything perverted in it at all. It’s the same problem I have with the DC Animated Universe. If writers wants to be perverts, they should stick to directing pornos or something. I’m not trying to sound like a prude here, but kids have no business being introduced to anything sexual in nature. It’s creepy.

No I don't think that's prudish. I think you're spot on.

[ABED]

I’ve come to the realization that Dragon Ball probably shouldn’t have ever had any sexual themes in it to begin with. If something is geared towards children, don’t put anything perverted in it at all. It’s the same problem I have with the DC Animated Universe. If writers wants to be perverts, they should stick to directing pornos or something. I’m not trying to sound like a prude here, but kids have no business being introduced to anything sexual in nature. It’s creepy.

When did the DCAU do anything sexual?

The antics I object to have to involve consent or lackthereof. Him trying to cop a feel bothers me, but something like putting himself, Kuririn, and Goku in lingerie just to see Lunch in lingerie works for me. If it had just been her, that would've crossed a line.

[Kunzait_83]

I’ve come to the realization that Dragon Ball probably shouldn’t have ever had any sexual themes in it to begin with. If something is geared towards children, don’t put anything perverted in it at all. It’s the same problem I have with the DC Animated Universe. If writers wants to be perverts, they should stick to directing pornos or something. I’m not trying to sound like a prude here, but kids have no business being introduced to anything sexual in nature. It’s creepy.

Yeah, I'm gonna have to SIGNIFICANTLY part ways with you here. And yes, you are being the textbook definition of prudish here (as well as moreover reactionary).

There's nothing the slightest bit wrong with kids, even very young kids, having a detailed understanding of sexuality in and of itself: I would argue that its WAY less healthy for them and VASTLY more dangerous in the long run to have them be ignorant and naive to it for much of their formative years (and indeed, there's a damn good argument to be made linking excessive sheltering and stigmatizing of sex in a kid's upbringing with bad behavior in these realms later on in their life as an adult).

NO media, for kids or otherwise, should be barred from tackling or including scenes of a sexual nature: the main thing is for the creators to just (heaven forbid, I know) actually think through the shit they put out there before they put it out there instead of just throwing out whatever into the wild carelessly. What you're saying here is just the opposite, but equally wrongheaded, extreme from that ("Nobody EVER mentions this stuff to kids! Make sure they NEVER find out it exists! They can't handle it!").

Educate kids about sex. Let them understand everything about it. The earlier in life, the better even. Hell, let them be educated enough on it that they can even laugh at a (well made, and non-abhorrent) sexual joke. More knowledge and more insight and understanding is NEVER a bad thing, and no kid is EVER "too young" for it.

The Muten Roshi stuff, again, ISN'T a problem purely because they deal with sex: they're a problem because they deal with sex in a way that is VERY stupidly callous and poorly thought through. Throw all the dick and boob jokes into children's shows all the live long day: just don't be a colossal fucking idiot about HOW you specifically do it and what underlying implications your putting in there. So long as you just aren't being callous and stupid about it, this stuff is ultimately 100% harmless and even HEALTHY for kids to have a greater understanding of.

The kind of blanket (and yes, VERY prudish) sheltering that you're arguing for here is NOT healthy at all whatsoever, and in fact is likely more apt to be damaging to most kids' understanding about how this stuff impacts people later in their lives (when they actually will have the ability to potentially do harm to others).

[WittyUsername]

I’ve come to the realization that Dragon Ball probably shouldn’t have ever had any sexual themes in it to begin with. If something is geared towards children, don’t put anything perverted in it at all. It’s the same problem I have with the DC Animated Universe. If writers wants to be perverts, they should stick to directing pornos or something. I’m not trying to sound like a prude here, but kids have no business being introduced to anything sexual in nature. It’s creepy.

When did the DCAU do anything sexual?

You didn’t know that Bruce Timm and Paul Dini are massive perverts? Those shows have all kinds of sexual innuendos, and other dirty little moments. For example, in the original Mad Love comic, Harley Quinn’s backstory established that she had sex with her college professors in order to get good grades. Oh, and Batman Beyond had a middle aged woman forcefully kissing a teenage boy...

Here are some examples:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1vGAFR_R4G4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7XuwCE4AlEM

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-eZYYAz2S7c

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e7xeWGIenOQ

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=c46goq2Hb2I

[ABED]

You sound very prudish. Those examples of innuendo are SO mild, you could tell your mother those jokes. And so what if they say Harley slept with a professor to get good grades? She willingly works with The Joker and has done much worse. She's a villain. It's not as though they said it was a good thing she did. Inque is a villain as well and it wasn't consensual.

It's odd where people draw the line. Violence and death and vigilantism are okay, but have the most mild of innuendo and that's objectionable. What am I missing here?

[JulieYBM]

Our sex education classes in the United States are woefully under-prioritized. Fundamentalist religions through their bigotry make it difficult for schools to teach the necessary elements for preparing young people for understanding their bodies and emotions. How many of use LGBTQIA folks would have had a better grasp on our feelings if we had had un-stymied educations at our schools that could instill in us confidence and pride in ourselves?

Of course, Toriyama Akira has no real intention of instigating the consideration of morals so I think this conversation is ill-placed given the subject manner.

[Tavarano]

Toriyama isn't an idiot, he has always been writing Dragon Ball to be immoral deliberately, and framing of immoral actions as fun is one of the parts of it. So I guess you're all picking on sexual stuff but that's just one of many things, these are not accidents that at the end of DB the message was that new generation has failed or why Goku leaves with Oob and not his granddaughter or why it's specifically Frieza that Goku teams up with to beat Jiren.

It's funny how Toriyama singles out Yamcha as the one character that will never get a girl in his interviews.

Spoiler:

[WittyUsername]

You sound very prudish. Those examples of innuendo are SO mild, you could tell your mother those jokes. And so what if they say Harley slept with a professor to get good grades? She willingly works with The Joker and has done much worse. She's a villain. It's not as though they said it was a good thing she did. Inque is a villain as well and it wasn't consensual.

I wouldn’t call the scene with Inque kissing Terry “mild”. I also initially forgot to include it, but there was also the Atom riding around in Wonder Woman’s cleavage. Oh, and there was also that Woody Allen-esque relationship that Batman had with Batgirl. The bottom line is that Bruce Timm and Paul Dini love their sexual innuendos and dirty humor so much, I’m actually kind of surprised that neither of them have had a MeToo reckoning just yet.

Anyway, we probably shouldn’t steer off topic here. This is supposed to be about Dragon Ball after all.

[ABED]

The relationship with Barbara and Batman is only hinted at. It was never shown, and it's not Woody Allen-esque at all. Barbara isn't underage, and Bruce was never her legal guardian. It's just a case of older man, younger woman, which is perfectly fine.

As for The Atom being in WW's cleavage, she put him there. It's a little risqué for a kid's show, but it's not assault. She has all the power in that situation.

Me Too is all about lack of consent. Sexual humor is not in and of itself wrong. How the hell you go from the mildest of innuendos to thinking that's indicative of them having committed sexual assault. You can't always tell with this stuff. Often it's the case that those that scream the loudest against something are the ones who have the skeletons in their closet.

[Kunzait_83]

You sound very prudish. Those examples of innuendo are SO mild, you could tell your mother those jokes.

Yep. Spot on.

Honestly folks: is it REALLY asking too much for people to just take a step back and utilize some critical thinking and nuance instead of just emotionally lurching from one reactionary extreme to the next? In other words, being an adult about this stuff?

Yes, CERTAIN kinds of sexual jokes (such as some, not even ALL but SOME, of the Muten Roshi jokes in Dragon Ball) can be hurtful and part of a MUCH broader and far-reaching problem with a normalization of bad views on sex. NO however that DOESN'T therefore mean that the answer to that is to go into a puritanical hysteria about shielding and walling off EVERYTHING remotely sexual imaginable from the virgin eyes/ears of anyone a microsecond under the age of 18.

Sex itself is NOT the problem: sex is an inherent, unavoidable, and fundamental part of life, and to deny that is absurd and ridiculous, not to mention needlessly harmful. The problem rather is HOW we think about and talk about sex as a broader society. That therefore means that we have to change how we think and talk about sex, NOT to "never, ever think or talk about sex around kids under ANY circumstances whatsoever!"

ALL this means is... if you want to make jokes about sensitive issues (like sex/rape and what have you), even around/to kids, by all means go for it: but think it through first. Don't just make a bee-line for the most extreme, "edgy" vileness you can possibly think of off the cuff without ANY regard to the deeper implications of what it is you're saying (consciously or unconsciously).

Think. Think is all I'm saying here. That SHOULDN'T be too much to ask for.

[Doctor.]

I’ve come to the realization that Dragon Ball probably shouldn’t have ever had any sexual themes in it to begin with. If something is geared towards children, don’t put anything perverted in it at all.

You're assuming Dragon Ball is only aimed at children.

[WittyUsername]

The relationship with Barbara and Batman is only hinted at. It was never shown, and it's not Woody Allen-esque at all. Barbara isn't underage, and Bruce was never her legal guardian. It's just a case of older man, younger woman, which is perfectly fine.

As for The Atom being in WW's cleavage, she put him there. It's a little risqué for a kid's show, but it's not assault. She has all the power in that situation.

Me Too is all about lack of consent. Sexual humor is not in and of itself wrong.

Soon-Yi Previn wasn’t underage when she began her relationship with Woody Allen, and Allen was never her legal guardian either. Besides, as far as the DCAU is concerned, Bruce knew Barbara since she was a child. In fact, when Barbara first appeared in B:TAS, Bruce proceeded to comment on how much she had grown. Apart from that, she also was in a relationship with Bruce’s adopted son, and a comic set in the DCAU even established that Bruce got her pregnant while she was still dating Dick Grayson...

[Cursed Lemon]

The problem with this kind of humor as it's usually played out (i.e. the way it's always played out in DB) is that regardless of whether or not Master Roshi always gets a slap in the face, implying that the women still have the power to stop it and that Roshi will always receive some kind of repercussion for doing it, it's still played off as being a relatively endearing character trait; the context suggests that while the girls are annoyed by it, it's framed as being innocent/without lasting impact and it's just something that they are forced to deal with. They'd better get used to it, they can't get rid of him or actually get him to stop, and he never suffers any true punishment nor does he learn over time that what he's doing is wrong.

That's not a good implication. There's no inherent humorous undertone to it that can be subtly played off of, so as a comedy device it's useless. Sexual assault is a hugely damaging phenomenon and to even casually suggest that a guy can keep getting away with it as long as he's a huge goof is probably one of the worse things we implicitly suggest to girls.

[ABED]

The relationship with Barbara and Batman is only hinted at. It was never shown, and it's not Woody Allen-esque at all. Barbara isn't underage, and Bruce was never her legal guardian. It's just a case of older man, younger woman, which is perfectly fine.

As for The Atom being in WW's cleavage, she put him there. It's a little risqué for a kid's show, but it's not assault. She has all the power in that situation.

Me Too is all about lack of consent. Sexual humor is not in and of itself wrong.

Soon-Yi Previn wasn’t underage when she began her relationship with Woody Allen, and Allen was never her legal guardian either. Besides, as far as the DCAU is concerned, Bruce knew Barbara since she was a child. In fact, when Barbara first appeared in B:TAS, Bruce proceeded to comment on how much she had grown. Apart from that, she also was in a relationship with Bruce’s adopted son, and a comic set in the DCAU even established that Bruce got her pregnant while she was still dating Dick Grayson...

You are splitting hairs here. While he wasn't legally her father, Mia Farrow was her mother. Bruce knew Barbara when she was a kid, but there's little to suggest they spent much time together. At worst, it's a little weird because he's interested in a girl his son/ward dated, but they aren't family in any sense.

Here's another example of some weird line. Bruce works with underage kids to fight criminals and yet you find a relationship between two consenting adults problematic because he knew her when she was younger.

I can't speak to that comic, but it wasn't in the TV shows, and those comics seem aimed at an older audience anyway.

a hugely damaging phenomenon and to even casually suggest that a guy can keep getting away with it as long as he's a huge goof is probably one of the worse things we implicitly suggest to girls.

Not just girls.

[Kunzait_83]

The problem with this kind of humor as it's usually played out (i.e. the way it's always played out in DB) is that regardless of whether or not Master Roshi always gets a slap in the face, implying that the women still have the power to stop it and that Roshi will always receive some kind of repercussion for doing it, it's still played off as being a relatively endearing character trait; the context suggests that while the girls are annoyed by it, it's framed as being innocent/without lasting impact and it's just something that they are forced to deal with. They'd better get used to it, they can't get rid of him or actually get him to stop, and he never suffers any true punishment nor does he learn over time that what he's doing is wrong.

That's not a good implication. There's no inherent humorous undertone to it that can be subtly played off of, so as a comedy device it's useless. Sexual assault is a hugely damaging phenomenon and to even casually suggest that a guy can keep getting away with it as long as he's a huge goof is probably one of the worse things we implicitly suggest to girls.

Excellent, EXCELLENT post. Word for word. 10,000% PERFECTLY summed up. Flawless Victory.

THIS RIGHT HERE is the heart and crux of the issues with Muten Roshi's pervert shtick in Dragon Ball. Hell, its not even the fact that he's depicted as a hyper-sexualized old man on a kids' show that's even the issue here: you can STILL have Muten Roshi be characterized as a girl-crazy dude with a raging libido on a show that's primarily made for kids and at the same time TOTALLY AVOID the above horrific undertones and implications of the jokes surrounding his sexuality. Its honestly NOT that difficult at all to pull off or an especially tall order to ask for.

Going to the OTHER extreme of "No one EVER mentions anything VAGUELY sexual around anyone who isn't 21 or over!" is a ludicrously absurd over-the-top overreaction to what is a fairly nuanced, but still easy to pinpoint issue.

a hugely damaging phenomenon and to even casually suggest that a guy can keep getting away with it as long as he's a huge goof is probably one of the worse things we implicitly suggest to girls.

Not just girls.

Also very true.

[WittyUsername]

You are splitting hairs here. While he wasn't legally her father, Mia Farrow was her mother. Bruce knew Barbara when she was a kid, but there's little to suggest they spent much time together. At worst, it's a little weird because he's interested in a girl his son/ward dated, but they aren't family in any sense.

Here's another example of some weird line. Bruce works with underage kids to fight criminals and yet you find a relationship between two consenting adults problematic because he knew her when she was younger.

I can't speak to that comic, but it wasn't in the TV shows, and those comics seem aimed at an older audience anyway.

Woody Allen was dating Soon-Yi Previn’s mother, but he never lived with her when she was a child, and her father was Andre Previn. For the record, I think getting into a sexual relationship with your ex-girlfriend’s daughter is a pretty lousy thing to do, but even Mia Farrow herself acknowledged that Allen hardly interacted with Soon-Yi when she was a child. With that in mind, I don’t see how Bruce sleeping with his adopted son’s ex-girlfriend who he knew as a child, isn’t also a lousy thing to do. It just makes Batman look like a sleazy old bastard. It was even worse with the animated adaptation of The Killing Joke (though that movie was rated R).

Anyway, this is probably the last thing I’ll say on the subject of the DCAU, since we’re getting way off topic here.