"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[batistabus]

I picked 7 chapters that I remember having specific fights in them, and it turns out they all have establishing shots:

Most of those aren't establishing shots. You're also misusing the term.

An establishing shot is a technique (primarily associated with filmmaking) used at the start of a scene to establish and provide an overview of its setting before the scene actually kicks off, usually employed as an extreme-wide shot, an aerial view or some combination of the two. In most establishing shots, the characters aren't even visible. They don't occur in the middle of scenes like many of the examples you've laid out, and to my knowledge, nobody - professionally, at least - has ever discussed them in that context.

Now I don't really care enough about Totally Not Mark's opinion to give him clicks, but just wanted to set the record straight for those who might be curious.

Spoiler:

This is the example used in that video. If you say that isn't defined under cinema terms as an establishing shot, then I'll accept that, but I was addressing the spirit of this specific criticism. I apologize for passing on bad information.

[prince212]

I really liked how was made the “traveling” from galactic patrol space ship to Moro space ship in the last chapter , pages 3-4 , feels “different” ...

[Green_Goblin]

Even though I am not sure if that's the place for that, I do recall that back in December of 2016 when the Tournament of Power was announced and we had that partial scan shot of Team Universe 7 someone made his guess about the rest of the recruits and post a link to his pic on imgur here... A little bit over a month ago I drew a possibilty for Toyotaro to include Zoonama from GT in a cameo during the battle with Moro which I'm sure that Majin Buu will be part of. Feel free to check that out:

Spoiler:

https://www.deviantart.com/dxrd/art/Zoo ... -777858830

[TKA]

So, besides the fact that this is misinterpreting my point entirely, that Toyotaro fails to pace either his writing or his art properly on multiple occasions (all I did was draw parallels between these things), cherry-picking a bunch of sort-of examples

It's not cherry-picking. He showed you multiple examples from multiple arcs. What more could you possibly want?

does not actually make it better, nor does it do anything but force people to then further compare it to Toriyama's much better work because OOPS! Toriyama actually does do that just about every chapter or so, sometimes more than once. Funny how that works out, huh?

A guy doing his first professional manga is not as good as one of the greatest mangaka ever? Wow, what a surprise. Literally nobody was suggesting Toyotaro is as good as Toriyama. The vast majority of mangaka aren't.

Second, the elitism is real here. I like how this place has somehow become some hive of "yeah fuck anyone with a youtube channel they're not REAL fans because they don't agree with me",

You have a very skewed perception of how this thread works. Four or so users here tend to make lengthy posts explaining why things from the manga work. Then someone comes in and links a shitty youtube video and that's the end of their argument. TNM first came up here because someone linked his video in lieu of making their own argument, and his video was promptly dissected and shown to be full of inaccuracies and bad conclusions.

It's not elitism to say most Dragonball youtubers are bad. Most Dragonball youtubers are busy drawing over animation sequences from the animes, making clickbait OCs, spreading misinformation, creating ridiculous theories etc. It's not elitism to say that is low-effort content and that most of them are not authoritative sources. It's not elitism to say "these 'entertainers' aren't interesting".

like that somehow precludes a person from making any valid points about anything.

That's it, no valid points are being made. When something goes outside of the realm of opinion and into fact like "Toyotaro doesn't use establishing shots" it's easily debunked by, like what batistabus did there.

This isn't fucking Mastar Media or dumb powerscaling shit, and ignoring legitimate criticism with this kind of ad-hominem behavior (especially with such weak rebuttals as "uh but Jiren isn't bad so Toyotaro actually has no composition issues haha checkmate liberals") is poison to any actual real discussion, and rampant throughout this thread.

This is just insulting.

Turn off whatever sense it is that you're being attacked and look at what's actually said. I said TNM claimed he could improve Toyotaro's composition, and then I pointed out immediately how that worsens the story and misses the thematic point. Then I went on to explain that anyone who claims to be able to improve a creator's work is full of shit, stupid and should be ignored.

I'd appreciate if you actually read the things I say in good faith instead of creating your wild interpretations and conflating my points with the alt-right. Your reply is so fucking insulting, man.

That's why I deleted the post, because I decided I had more enjoyable and important things to do with my time than argue with walls, but I guess you decided to supersede that anyway. Good job.

I did describe it at length in fact, I just deleted it because I realized this shit will never go anywhere.

The only reason I separated this into its own quote is the bolded bit. You're on a forum, bro. It's literally made for arguing and discussing. If you can't deal with people having an opinion different from yours and those people willing to defend their positions, then maybe you should reconsider why you're on a forum to begin with.

Quit it with this infantile "I have a life"/"I don't have time to argue with the likes of you" mentality.

Oh and thanks for the implication that because I happened to agree with someone who made a youtube video, that somehow means I didn't read the manga. Real classy.

I do not wish to speak for batistabus, but what he meant was stop letting youtubers tell you how to think and come to these conclusions on your own. Provide your own evidence. Read the story and form your own critiques. You can agree with TNM and even echo his points, but presenting him as an authoritative insight into the perceived problems of the manga will always open you up to criticism.

Like, brah, you're arguing about a goddamn Japanese comic on an internet forum.

The point was that Toyotaro doesn't know how to pace things in writing or composition, I just happened to mention a point he made.

And I strongly disagree. I very much enjoy the pace of the manga. It's almost like matters concerning art are subjective. It's almost like people need to argue/discuss these things to come to some sort of consensus. It's almost like art isn't an empirical science.

There's plenty of reasons I could describe about how this arc feels like it's rushing regardless of whether it literally is

Good! That's what you should've been doing this whole time instead of going on a moral crusade trying to shame people for not agreeing with you.

how nothing feels impactful or important, and how boring the villain is and any intrigue has been lost because he's going to be exactly the same as every other DB villain but with less personality.

I'm real glad you came to these conclusions just 2.3 chapters in, when the villain has only had a speaking role in 1 of those 2.3 chapters. What's the rush to make a judgment based on something in its most nascent form? I explained why the problem of this arc is how uneventful it's been compared to the original manga's starting arcs, but to claim this is moving too fast is just alien to me.

[IM21]

good to see viz added the extra pages of Vegito vs Zamasu in vol 4.

[Shaddy]

A guy doing his first professional manga is not as good as one of the greatest mangaka ever? Wow, what a surprise. Literally nobody was suggesting Toyotaro is as good as Toriyama. The vast majority of mangaka aren't.

He's not doing a better job than most good mangaka either, contemporary or otherwise. And regardless, this is an official Dragon Ball manga, with an artist chosen by the creator of the original. Comparing the two is a given. Even if I didn't compare to Toriyama specifically, I don't notice this stuff nearly as much from Dragon Garrow Lee, Naho Ooishi, or Yoshitaka Nagayama. If Toyotaro is doing this poorly despite "trying his oh so hardest uwu" then his first professional manga shouldn't have been Dragon Ball fucking Super.

You have a very skewed perception of how this thread works. Four or so users here tend to make lengthy posts explaining why things from the manga work. Then someone comes in and links a shitty youtube video and that's the end of their argument. TNM first came up here because someone linked his video in lieu of making their own argument, and his video was promptly dissected and shown to be full of inaccuracies and bad conclusions.

I'm not certain I believe all that, but I also don't care that much. Please leave responding to me in that manner for when I actually do anything like this. Because I didn't do that. I didn't link the video, I didn't mention Mark, Toyotaro's dearth of establishing shots was never really even the subject, just an example I used to illustrate that he sucks at setting things up.

That's it, no valid points are being made. When something goes outside of the realm of opinion and into fact like "Toyotaro doesn't use establishing shots" it's easily debunked by, like what batistabus did there.

They're infrequent enough to be a problem and STILL not present in the fight depicted in the video despite being used in nearly every chapter or MORE from Toriyama. And you've used this to say "well that means everything else he does is worthless", which is an incredibly reductive viewpoint that only serves to ignore real criticism.

Turn off whatever sense it is that you're being attacked and look at what's actually said. I said TNM claimed he could improve Toyotaro's composition, and then I pointed out immediately how that worsens the story and misses the thematic point. Then I went on to explain that anyone who claims to be able to improve a creator's work is full of shit, stupid and should be ignored.

So immediately brushing off anything that attempts to polish this thing as "full of shit, stupid and should be ignored" just because Jiren isn't evil, something that was never even implied, is not insulting? All "light and dark" inherently means in storytelling is two things that are diametrically opposed, in stark contrast with one another. Creators are not untouchable gods, and plenty of people can and have improved upon things that others have created. You may not think Mark did, I don't really care, but to suggest that nobody can ever do better than a creator (when such things are literally how many people become creators) is just a deflection. Criticism inherently exists because people want to see something improve and are communicating how it should.

The only reason I separated this into its own quote is the bolded bit. You're on a forum, bro. It's literally made for arguing and discussing. If you can't deal with people having an opinion different from yours and those people willing to defend their positions, then maybe you should reconsider why you're on a forum to begin with.

I did question why I was in this terrible thread, and decided I'd rather not be involved, so I deleted the post. But I guess that wasn't good enough, huh?

I do not wish to speak for batistabus, but what he meant was stop letting youtubers tell you how to think and come to these conclusions on your own. Provide your own evidence. Read the story and form your own critiques. You can agree with TNM and even echo his points, but presenting him as an authoritative insight into the perceived problems of the manga will always open you up to criticism.

Except I was never doing that. I offhandedly mentioned a criticism that I happened to share with him in my big dumbass paragraph about how this arc sucks so far. I was never presenting him as a fucking """authoritative insight""".

Good! That's what you should've been doing this whole time instead of going on a moral crusade trying to shame people for not agreeing with you.

Again, I did talk about how the manga sucks, but I got rid of it because I realized it wouldn't actually change anything. You're not going to see eye to eye with me no matter what I do. Also, from the very start I was simply taking issue with a total misrepresentation and oversimplification of my criticism of the manga. I concede that there aren't "literally no establishing shots whatsoever", but that was also never important.

I'm real glad you came to these conclusions just 2.3 chapters in, when the villain has only had a speaking role in 1 of those 2.3 chapters. What's the rush to make a judgment based on something in its most nascent form? I explained why the problem of this arc is how uneventful it's been compared to the original manga's starting arcs, but to claim this is moving too fast is just alien to me.

It's funny how you make up this "shame people for disagreeing" thing and then immediately turn around and say "man this guy already has the opinion that's different from mine after just the length of five chapters what's his fuckin' problem". You don't seem to take any issue with the people that already think this arc is amazing, of course. This is the Sonic fandom thing where no matter how much time it takes to progress through something people are skeptical of early on it's always "too early to tell" until suddenly it's too late. You're telling me that I don't have a right to feel the way I do because of your arbitrary standards of what an acceptable wait time is.

But the thing is, it's been twice that long since the Super manga's chapters are double the length of the original, and more importantly every single other villain and arc was immediately more striking and intriguing by this point than anything this one has pulled out. It's boring. This is a thing I am stating because it is what I believe. It's what I've felt after what we've gotten. This is not a preview for the arc, it is 90 pages of material that's been officially released and it sucks. It is completely possible for it to stop being boring, but it is 100% factual that I am bored with it right now. Whatever makes it not boring would have to be a pretty big change either way. I'm not going to "wait to judge" when the chapters are already out. I liked the Freeza arc by this point, I liked the Black arc by this point.

Moro, and this arc, have had more time to catch my attention than anything previous took, but they haven't made any sort of unique or spectacular entrance, there's been one setpiece that's kind of cool but ended up not being all that important, and nothing has visually or narratively excited me in any way. This is the first time I've ever felt like this about a new story in Dragon Ball (well, other than the movie retellings I guess). Freeza was built up for dozens of chapters before any of the heroes even attempted to fight him, but you got to know who person he was in his first appearance. Cell had a drawn-out introduction featuring melted humans and empty cities. Buu danced around giggling like a schoolgirl after being built up so long as something terrifying. Moro is mentioned at the start of one chapter, fighting Vegeta in the next, and has been flat as a goddamn board in between.

[Green_Goblin]

Something I've noticed: Everyone is talking about Moro's powers and do not stop to ask how did he managed to locate New Namek (if he never met one to know how to search for their ki signature) and why do that former Frieza Soldier (it's NOT Raspberry) flies the ship as if he had been there/the same way to OLD Namek?

[Miracles]

Something I've noticed: Everyone is talking about Moro's powers and do not stop to ask how did he managed to locate New Namek and why do that former Frieza Soldier (it's NOT Raspberry) flies the ship as if he had been there/the same way to OLD Namek?

Uhm, it's stated by Merus that Moro has the ability to "scan" for life force. That's the reason that he was able to head to new Namek. This was mentioned after Goku said people shouldn'tt know about New Namek but Merus says since Moro can scan the universe for life it's a done deal. Freeza henchman stated that he needed someone to help him locate the Dragonballs not that he ever knew where they were while he was in Jail. All of this is on pages 8-11 in chapter 44.

[Green_Goblin]

Something I've noticed: Everyone is talking about Moro's powers and do not stop to ask how did he managed to locate New Namek and why do that former Frieza Soldier (it's NOT Raspberry) flies the ship as if he had been there/the same way to OLD Namek?

Uhm, it's stated by Merus that Moro has the ability to "scan" for life force and that's the reason that he was heading to new Namek after Goku said people don't know about it. It's obvious Moro is doing the guiding here.

It doesn't answer how does he know what the Namekians look nor feel are, it's not like he types "Namekians" in a search engine, gets results and can produce a ki signature out of it. Let alone to guide the pilot towards that result.

[Kanassa]

Something I've noticed: Everyone is talking about Moro's powers and do not stop to ask how did he managed to locate New Namek and why do that former Frieza Soldier (it's NOT Raspberry) flies the ship as if he had been there/the same way to OLD Namek?

Uhm, it's stated by Merus that Moro has the ability to "scan" for life force and that's the reason that he was heading to new Namek after Goku said people don't know about it. It's obvious Moro is doing the guiding here.

It doesn't answer how does he know what the Namekians look nor feel are, it's not like he types "Namekians" in a search engine, gets results and can produce a ki signature out of it. Let alone to guide the pilot towards that result.

1. I'd assume that the guy who eats an entire planets worth of life forces for breakfast can probably see differences between them
2. New Namek's location is apparently far out in the universe where there isn't any life, so it would seem like a noticeable oddity to someone sensing life across the universe

[Miracles]

Something I've noticed: Everyone is talking about Moro's powers and do not stop to ask how did he managed to locate New Namek and why do that former Frieza Soldier (it's NOT Raspberry) flies the ship as if he had been there/the same way to OLD Namek?

Uhm, it's stated by Merus that Moro has the ability to "scan" for life force and that's the reason that he was heading to new Namek after Goku said people don't know about it. It's obvious Moro is doing the guiding here.

It doesn't answer how does he know what the Namekians look nor feel are, it's not like he types "Namekians" in a search engine, gets results and can produce a ki signature out of it. Let alone to guide the pilot towards that result.

Considering Moro is still a mystery in power and background, while knowing he is also 10 million years old with his ability to sense being on a different level [He sensed Goku was trying to sense him and immediately recognized him as the one trying to locate him on Namek] while weakened, you are still asking yourself how he knows/knew what Namekians Ki feels like?

[Green_Goblin]

Uhm, it's stated by Merus that Moro has the ability to "scan" for life force and that's the reason that he was heading to new Namek after Goku said people don't know about it. It's obvious Moro is doing the guiding here.

It doesn't answer how does he know what the Namekians look nor feel are, it's not like he types "Namekians" in a search engine, gets results and can produce a ki signature out of it. Let alone to guide the pilot towards that result.

Considering Moro is still a mystery in power and background, while knowing he is also 10 million years old with his ability to sense being on a different level [He sensed Goku was trying to sense him and immediately recognized him as the one trying to locate him on Namek] while weakened, you are still asking yourself how he knows/knew what Namekians Ki feels like?

Yes, because UNLIKE with Goku's ki, he had never interacted with Namekians. I doubt that they've existed 10 million years ago or that he had met one Namekian in the Galactic Partol Prison to know what to search/hunt for.

1. I'd assume that the guy who eats an entire planets worth of life forces for breakfast can probably see differences between them
2. New Namek's location is apparently far out in the universe where there isn't any life, so it would seem like a noticeable oddity to someone sensing life across the universe

Read my upper comment. Or you know what, let's make it simpler: As of given info we have now, Moro never met a Namekian to know who they are nor how their ki feels like, so how can he know what to scan the entire universe for?

[Saiga]

The characters have shown the ability to sense more than just energy with ki sensing. They can tell if someone's evil, and in some cases when they've got power in reserve. And that's just regular ki sensing.

Those regular ki users can even read minds against someone's will. Moro's ability to search out lifeforms and determine if they're who he is after isn't a stretch to me, it's within the scope of things we've already seen. He could have specifically scanned for 'people who know of Dragon balls' or just about any criteria he wanted.

Unless Moro's scanning ability is specifically stated that he needs to know the ki signature of someone he's looking for, I wouldn't find anything odd about it. Instead, they're pretty clear that Moro could find the planet because of his scanning ability, even without knowledge of the planet.

[Green_Goblin]

The characters have shown the ability to sense more than just energy with ki sensing. They can tell if someone's evil, and in some cases when they've got power in reserve. And that's just regular ki sensing.

Those regular ki users can even read minds against someone's will. Moro's ability to search out lifeforms and determine if they're who he is after isn't a stretch to me, it's within the scope of things we've already seen. He could have specifically scanned for 'people who know of Dragon balls' or just about any criteria he wanted.

Unless Moro's scanning ability is specifically stated that he needs to know the ki signature of someone he's looking for, I wouldn't find anything odd about it. Instead, they're pretty clear that Moro could find the planet because of his scanning ability, even without knowledge of the planet.

Which makes him omniscient about all the universe, making Shin look even worse for not being able to locate Broly on Vampa before the Tournament of Power.

[Miracles]

It doesn't answer how does he know what the Namekians look nor feel are, it's not like he types "Namekians" in a search engine, gets results and can produce a ki signature out of it. Let alone to guide the pilot towards that result.

Considering Moro is still a mystery in power and background, while knowing he is also 10 million years old with his ability to sense being on a different level [He sensed Goku was trying to sense him and immediately recognized him as the one trying to locate him on Namek] while weakened, you are still asking yourself how he knows/knew what Namekians Ki feels like?

Yes, because UNLIKE with Goku's ki, he had never interacted with Namekians. I doubt that they've existed 10 million years ago or that he had met one Namekian in the Galactic Partol Prison to know what to search/hunt for.

Truthfully it's all assumption. That's why I said we should wait for more backstory.

[LightBing]

Interested how next chapter might turn out. We've been set up to believe Moro has some kind of magic which will make him very difficult to beat, there's also the former Freeza soldier(does he have a name?) knowing Vegeta is in the Galactic Patrol, there's has to be a reason why Toyotarõ showed him realizing that information.

Something annoying I noticed, Moro says life has "grow and spread since he was in prison". Well Majin Boo happened and we received the 2x planets with life line, so...
Really wished that line was never uttered.

[TKA]

He's not doing a better job than most good mangaka either contemporary or otherwise.

Couldn't disagree more. I can get through a 45-page chapter of Super but can't bear to read even 2 pages of One Piece (for it's horrid art and Oda's need to cram every panel with every irrelevant detail possible) or Attack on Titan (just shitty art, mate). Those two are the premier mangaka right now. Of the rising manga, Black Clover is bad art central filled with sterile character designs and a very barebones story, while My Hero Academia is generally competent, but is every generic shonen ever made.

Toyotaro, the total package of him, creates a manga I can actually enjoy.

I don't notice this stuff nearly as much from Dragon Garrow Lee, Naho Ooishi, or Yoshitaka Nagayama. If Toyotaro is doing this poorly despite "trying his oh so hardest uwu" then his first professional manga shouldn't have been Dragon Ball fucking Super.

None of those people you mentioned are doing an official monthly manga that has to cover as much ground as Toyotaro's. Did you people not read the early chapters of Super or the Resurrection F manga, where he didn't have much ground to cover so the panels were bigger and there was much less dialogue? That's a more regular layout for a manga.

When he was increased to 40 pages, his panels shrunk and he started needing to cram more onto each page because now he was telling real story arcs. The Super manga clearly isn't his normal style, but is the way it is out of necessity.

Did you not read the final chapter of the Tournament of Power? That had to end the arc, promote Broly and then jump to the start of this arc all in one go. I respect Toyotaro's efforts because he's in a bad position, but is making chicken salad out of that chicken shit.

Before I continue, I must dispel some notions that people may have:

1. Mangaka do not control how many pages their mangas can be. There's a strict page number that must be reached. It is not a range. If your manga is 17 pages, you need to pump out 17 pages; not 16 or 18, but 17.

2. Editors determine how long your arcs go for. This is due to the fact that volumes have to have a very specific number of pages.

I'm not certain I believe all that, but I also don't care that much. Please leave responding to me in that manner for when I actually do anything like this. Because I didn't do that. I didn't link the video, I didn't mention Mark, Toyotaro's dearth of establishing shots was never really even the subject, just an example I used to illustrate that he sucks at setting things up.

If you didn't link the video, then none of the replies are targeted at you. How is this hard to understand? A video was posted, people who disagreed then posted why they disagreed. Those people then went on to explain that youtube videos are often misinformed. Why did you insert yourself into this then, and then acted like you're being persecuted?

And I have no reason to lie.

They're infrequent enough to be a problem and STILL not present in the fight depicted in the video despite being used in nearly every chapter or MORE from Toriyama. And you've used this to say "well that means everything else he does is worthless", which is an incredibly reductive viewpoint that only serves to ignore real criticism.

On the page I linked above, I tell the person talking about TNM to state his arguments instead of needing me to go watch his video and give him attention. You should do the same.

And man, you just aren't reading my posts. Since October of 2018 I've been making the same damn point, and apparently to you:

I have a problem with people posting youtube videos as if they're authoritative sources.

Criticism videos are generally stupid. It's you presenting a one-sided, unchallenged argument for 20-30 under soothing music.

So immediately brushing off anything that attempts to polish this thing

That's the whole idea, my man. If you want to "polish" something, go make your own comic. It's not your place, it's insulting to the original creator and any idiot can "improve" something. It takes much more to create.

Creators are not untouchable gods

They absolutely are. That's what a creator is. A creator is an untouchable god in the framework of what they created. George Lucas' word and works in Star Wars supersedes everyone else's work in Star Wars. No fan has the "right" to "improve" George's work. You want to make it better? Go make your own.

Same with Toyotaro. He created this. It's his sweat, his hours devoted and his work ethic that gets new chapters done. Who the heck are you to say you can make his work better? What Dragonball thing has TNM ever produced in his life that makes him think he can talk down to a Dragonball creator? It's just one of many youtubers with an overinflated opinion of their skill. I could go on listing examples of how he's wrong, but I think the "light dark motif" bit I explained does a good enough job of exposing how utterly out of his element and unqualified he is to "improve" anything.

I did question why I was in this terrible thread, and decided I'd rather not be involved, so I deleted the post. But I guess that wasn't good enough, huh?

Then stop posting. Stop wasting your divine time on us lowly mortals. Get on your pimp yacht and sail the high seas of Dubai with your harem of instagram models, my man. We'll just stay in our moms' basements talking about dragonball.

Again, I did talk about how the manga sucks, but I got rid of it because I realized it wouldn't actually change anything.

This is juvenile. "I replied but I deleted it before you saw it so there!"

I mean, really?

Stop critiquing then or stop replying if you have such a nihilistic outlook. Forums exist for thought exchange. If you don't wish to engage, then don't engage, even if someone disagrees with something you said (and since this is forum, people will disagree with what you said, my guy).

It's funny how you make up this "shame people for disagreeing" thing and then immediately turn around and say "man this guy already has the opinion that's different from mine after just the length of five chapters what's his fuckin' problem".

No, my dude. I'm saying defend your stance. I said it's alien to me that anyone could say this thing that is moving at a snail's pace for Dragonball is somehow moving too fast. You might've made an argument in previous pages, and I'm sure I would've then replied explaining why I don't agree.

You don't seem to take any issue with the people that already think this arc is amazing, of course

Fuck, really?

You're either lying to misrepresent my position, or you're not paying attention to the thread. Both are damning to this moral crusade you seem to be on.

But the thing is, it's been twice that long since the Super manga's chapters are double the length of the original, and more importantly every single other villain and arc was immediately more striking and intriguing by this point than anything this one has pulled out. It's boring.

The Super manga is more like 2.5-3x the length of original manga chapters, like I already said. This is pretty boring, like I already said. This is less interesting than the arc beginnings in the original manga, like I already said.

This is why I kept coming back to your claim that things are moving too fast. The way I see it, this shit needs to speed up. This is slow, lumbering, and uneventful next to what's come before. Even the Universe Survival Arc had a more interesting introduction.

I'm not going to "wait to judge" when the chapters are already out. I liked the Freeza arc by this point, I liked the Black arc by this point.

Two things:

1. Villains don't have to be likable. In fact, I prefer detestable villains.

2. This is Moro's first chapter where he got to have actual prolonged dialogue.

Frieza was introduced having his men kill children; Moro was introduced killing furry woodland creatures and idyllic landscapes. Pretty similar, but at this point the only thing about Frieza that stuck out was how politely he spoke. Cell was introduced depopulating cities, and then spent the rest of his introduction expositing and killing any mystery around him. Buu was introduced and reintroduced (his various other personae) multiples times. Jiren was introduced as pretty much nothing, but by the end became interesting (only talking about the manga's Jiren here, btw).

Moro is pretty much the same template. We know absolutely nothing about him. He's only just showed up. To call him boring this early is premature, since most villains are pretty boring when they just show up. It's almost always "This guy is really strong and evil," and then as their arc goes on we come to know more about them.

With all of that out the way, I fully agree with this arc being thoroughly uninteresting thus far, but looking at how Dragonball is written I cannot agree with:

there's never been an arc villain introduced with as little development as this before one of the main heroes got into a fight with them, whether that was the main battle or not.

Because, as I said before:

I'm sure people had the same complaint about Raditz when he first showed up. Surely he would've seemed like the main villain. Surely people had the same complaint when Cell debuted by getting into a fight with Piccolo. Surely people had the same problem when Majin Buu's debut was fighting Gohan, Kaioshin and Vegeta.

This is nothing new. You also have zero idea where this is going. Moro could easily be just a fodder character who is replaced by someone else, like Raditz. He could also be the final boss. Who knows? That's the point, really. Nobody does.

You're ignoring a lot to make this declaration.

[Son Dragon]

I think Toyotaro is a very humble person and Dragon Ball Super will always be fine because of it.

Anyway, I'm thinking Moro might be able to shapeshift. Puar & Oolong can do so, (they went to shapeshift school) and their good examples of how magic works in the series. Also Majin Boo & Boss Rabbit can transform people into objects, the Power Pole can extend past areas where even rockets can't travel, Babidi can use mind control, anf Baba can see into the future so maybe we'll see a variation of those ideas. So far though it seems like Moro just has control over gravity and the ability to sense life.

Also on a side note I thinking it might be time for Goku to learn how to use magic. In the original dragon ball the narrator mentioned how the Kamehameha was like a type magic attack however it never went anywhere in long run and became Ki instead. Still I wonder what the creaters have plannned.

:

[prince212]

good to see viz added the extra pages of Vegito vs Zamasu in vol 4.

Great , they didn’t add them to the web app for now .

[Shaddy]

None of those people you mentioned are doing an official monthly manga that has to cover as much ground as Toyotaro's. Did you people not read the early chapters of Super or the Resurrection F manga, where he didn't have much ground to cover so the panels were bigger and there was much less dialogue? That's a more regular layout for a manga.

I don't really care all that much if what I'm reading isn't enjoyable. Being able to explain why it was boring and lame doesn't make it not boring and lame.

Did you not read the final chapter of the Tournament of Power? That had to end the arc, promote Broly and then jump to the start of this arc all in one go. I respect Toyotaro's efforts because he's in a bad position, but is making chicken salad out of that chicken shit.

If that's what he had to do he should have taken a different approach to how he spaced out the arc's important moments from the start, and condensed it to only what matters. If he knew this stuff from the start, he should have compensated for it.

1. Mangaka do not control how many pages their mangas can be. There's a strict page number that must be reached. It is not a range. If your manga is 17 pages, you need to pump out 17 pages; not 16 or 18, but 17.

2. Editors determine how long your arcs go for. This is due to the fact that volumes have to have a very specific number of pages.

That changes nothing. He's utilized what he was given incredibly poorly. You could only debatably make a case for him somehow not knowing how few chapters he would have until it was too late, but that would be represented by a less-even structure. Every chapter is about as bad about this stuff as the next, at least it has been recently.

If you didn't link the video, then none of the replies are targeted at you. How is this hard to understand? A video was posted, people who disagreed then posted why they disagreed. Those people then went on to explain that youtube videos are often misinformed. Why did you insert yourself into this then, and then acted like you're being persecuted?
And I have no reason to lie.

This isn't that conversation. That was months ago. I'm talking about now, where I offhandedly mentioned a point that happened to align with the video (not even mentioning the video itself, mind you), and then you two replied as if I'd linked to it with no further elaboration.

On the page I linked above, I tell the person talking about TNM to state his arguments instead of needing me to go watch his video and give him attention. You should do the same.

And man, you just aren't reading my posts. Since October of 2018 I've been making the same damn point, and apparently to you:

I have a problem with people posting youtube videos as if they're authoritative sources.

Yet a-fucking-gain, that is not what I'm here to do nor has it ever been. If you're really so determined to deconstruct that video in any way you can, you don't deserve to have it spoon-fed to you, and even if you did that's not my job.

That's the whole idea, my man. If you want to "polish" something, go make your own comic. It's not your place, it's insulting to the original creator and any idiot can "improve" something. It takes much more to create.

Well that would put into frame the subjective idea of how much something need be altered before it can be tied to the person who made the change and judged as an "improvement", wouldn't it? Does a fanmade patch to a game to fix a bug not improve the experience for the player? Is that "insult" to the devs who overlooked it really important? The video is criticism, the same as my posts are criticism. All criticism is inherently linked to the idea that the person giving it would have done things differently from the creator of the thing they're criticizing.

They absolutely are. That's what a creator is. A creator is an untouchable god in the framework of what they created. George Lucas' word and works in Star Wars supersedes everyone else's work in Star Wars. No fan has the "right" to "improve" George's work. You want to make it better? Go make your own.

Creators do not make things for nobody. If art is only supposed to be perceived as good or bad by it's creator, then it should never be shared with anyone else. When Toyotaro writes his manga for people to pay money for and experience, they are 100% entitled to form their own opinion and contribute the ways they think it should have been done if they don't like it.

Same with Toyotaro. He created this. It's his sweat, his hours devoted and his work ethic that gets new chapters done. Who the heck are you to say you can make his work better?

If you're just going to hide behind "oh but he worked so hard you just don't understand" you can dispel anything. And if that's what you're doing then I'm really not going to fucking bother. I don't need to be a chef to know if the burger I ordered has mayonnaise that I didn't ask for, and I am 100% allowed to "improve" the meal by removing it, or ordering a new burger entirely. I draw stuff all the time, is that the only prerequisite? "You must be this tall for your opinion to be valid"?

What Dragonball thing has TNM ever produced in his life that makes him think he can talk down to a Dragonball creator? It's just one of many youtubers with an overinflated opinion of their skill.

You're acting like this is some free webcomic wholly based in itself made by some kid in his basement and everyone is sending him death threats. That's not what's happening here, I'd go so far as to say most creators wouldn't want you defending them with the ferocity of a chihuahua just because someone criticized them. Because that's what that video is, criticism. It's not presenting itself as a literal alternative to the manga, just a visual representation of what Mark thought Toyo should have done. I'm pretty sure most creators would appreciate something like this because it's a very cleanly-presented representation of an issue many people have with the story. You don't have to agree with it, but saying it doesn't have a right to exist is basically disagreeing with the concept of criticism.

Stop critiquing then or stop replying if you have such a nihilistic outlook. Forums exist for thought exchange. If you don't wish to engage, then don't engage, even if someone disagrees with something you said (and since this is forum, people will disagree with what you said, my guy).

I didn't do it because people were disagreeing, people disagree with me all the time. I did it because specifically this thread is a drag to be in.

The Super manga is more like 2.5-3x the length of original manga chapters, like I already said. This is pretty boring, like I already said. This is less interesting than the arc beginnings in the original manga, like I already said.

This is why I kept coming back to your claim that things are moving too fast. The way I see it, this shit needs to speed up. This is slow, lumbering, and uneventful next to what's come before. Even the Universe Survival Arc had a more interesting introduction.

It's boring because it's not elaborating on anything interesting or important, not because it's too slow. We've moved across different places and met like five new characters, but all of them are just there. By all means, never attempting to flesh the story out into something more meaningful has been Toyo's problem since day one, and it shows much more now that he's writing his own arc with none of Toriyama's stylization or charm to prop it up.

1. Villains don't have to be likable. In fact, I prefer detestable villains.

Okay, engaging, interesting. Use whatever word you want, Moro is lacking and that's what I'm saying here.

2. This is Moro's first chapter where he got to have actual prolonged dialogue.

So were all those other chapters where the villains had something cool or unique or intimidating about them. I knew I was engaged or interested in what was going on in the series and it's many elements not long after their introduction, and I don't hold anything back about the inverse being true as well.

Frieza was introduced having his men kill children; Moro was introduced killing furry woodland creatures and idyllic landscapes. Pretty similar, but at this point the only thing about Frieza that stuck out was how politely he spoke. Cell was introduced depopulating cities, and then spent the rest of his introduction expositing and killing any mystery around him. Buu was introduced and reintroduced (his various other personae) multiples times. Jiren was introduced as pretty much nothing, but by the end became interesting (only talking about the manga's Jiren here, btw).

Except those things about them make all the difference (well, except Jiren, he sucks on a level that transcends medium). Frieza was done in the way he was specifically both to make him seem unnerving, and to jack up the intimidation to an insane degree by having two lackeys that are much stronger than Vegeta but who are absolutely nothing compared to Freeza, pushing his threat level higher than anything ever seen before. Cell's problems are real and he's lacking in a lot of areas, but the visual presentation of his introduction is so striking and unique it makes up for it. And Buu...well, what I said before about his initial introduction is still true and he only got less interesting with each new form, so.

If Moro (why do I keep trying to type his name as "Moreo?") had anything we hadn't seen before, either from the character directly or in the tone of the scene, I don't think I'd be nearly as hard on him. But first impressions are everything and he's left basically nothing.

You're ignoring a lot to make this declaration.

While Raditz is certainly bare-bones and uninteresting, his appearance opens the universe of DB up in ways no other villain could. It puts personal stakes into Goku's story, in that he deals with the revelation that his family and race are evil bastards and has his son kidnapped, and it brings unexpected changes like his alliance with Piccolo. If this arc had something like that, it might help distract from the villain having nothing going for him.

Also, you said yourself we'd be 7-8 chapters into an arc of regular DB by this point, and that's true, but Goku and Piccolo had been fighting Raditz for 4 chapters by that point anyway, and there had already been twists and turns to both the characters and the fight. It simply had more going on and more investment to be had.