Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Loputousu]

The one that really pushed a lot of people onto this "retconned" or "two base" theory more but I suppose at least since then we know the latter isn't true.

According to the retcon theory, the two base theory was true up until the Tournament of Power, at which point it was retconned. So no, we know that the two base theory and the retcon theory are both true.

[Miracles]

But the two base theory was always false. One, it was never stated in canon BOG that Goku has god powers in base. That was proven true when the Z Senshi could tell god form ran out by sensing his Ki. Two, at the end of Battle of Gods, Goku turned back into Super Saiyan god to destroy Beerus' attack. There was never any retcon.

[Koitsukai]

How strong do you guys think SSJ1 Broly (not full power) is compared to anyone in the ToP?

Well, SS Broly had an hour with Golden Freeza and couldn't do what Hakaishin Toppo did with just two blows.

[ruler9871]

How strong do you guys think SSJ1 Broly (not full power) is compared to anyone in the ToP?

Well, SS Broly had an hour with Golden Freeza and couldn't do what Hakaishin Toppo did with just two blows.

Keep in mind that Golden Freeza in DBS Broly was said to be much stronger than he was in the ToP.

[ruler9871]

Given how he turned Super Saiyan after reaching an Oozaru Base power equal to SSB, exactly 50 times stronger than that level.

Which means that, while he'd be among the strongest fighters present, he'd still fall short of top dogs like God of Destruction Toppo and Jiren.

Ssj Broly was equal with a post TOP ssj Gogeta, i agree he would fall short forJiren but he would decimate Toppo, otherwise you are suggesting that a Ssjb Kaioken Goku or Ssjb Evolution Vegeta could have dealt with Ssj Broly on their own, let own work together or even fuse

I am suggesting that. Without any confirmation of an anime adaptation of the movie or any other official statements saying that the movie is in a separate continuity, we have to assume that the movie is a continuation of the anime's version of the DBS story in addition to the manga.

I also think that Hakaishin Toppo is a lot stronger than people give him credit for. SSBE Vegeta wasn't defeating him normally; he had to gain a temporary boost in strength from not throwing away his morals and pride AND utilize a limit-breaking Final Explosion to merely knock Toppo out. Majin Buu, who was much stronger than SS2 Vegeta way back when, was nearly destroyed by that attack. But Toppo? He only got knocked out. I highly doubt that Goku and Vegeta working together would've beaten Toppo if they fought him with the regular power.

Obviously, Toriyama and the writers didn't bother to include SSBE and Kaioken in the movie, but like highlighted earlier, we can't just assume they don't exist because we don't have evidence to imply that the movie is in an entirely separate vacuum. So, they don't bother using those ascended god-states against SS Broly. Heck, they even tap out way too early for their usual MO when it comes to fighting.

Vegeta's pride boost against Toppo was not temporary. Hell, even after losing most of his power with the Final Explosion vs God Toppo, SSBE Vegeta was still considered stronger than Toppo by Jiren in ep.127.

[ruler9871]

The one that really pushed a lot of people onto this "retconned" or "two base" theory more but I suppose at least since then we know the latter isn't true.

According to the retcon theory, the two base theory was true up until the Tournament of Power, at which point it was retconned. So no, we know that the two base theory and the retcon theory are both true.

Two Base Theory was always false. Its nothing more than an excuse to downplay certain characters Goku & Vegeta fight (such as the U6 Saiyans and most of the ToP fodder).

Its based on the false assumptions that God Ki has anything to do with raw strength and that someone with God Ki is automatically stronger than someone without it.

[Bullza]

It wasn't really an excuse. Back then people thought there was a Base Goku comparable to his Buu level and another Base Goku who was as strong as Super Saiyan God.

People didn't know why Base Goku could be so strong that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks couldn't budge an equivalent of him and then be implied to be weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks.

I suppose the reality is that it was neither of those things. There's just one Base Goku that's not as weak as his Buu level and not as strong as Super Saiyan God.

[Koitsukai]

How strong do you guys think SSJ1 Broly (not full power) is compared to anyone in the ToP?

Well, SS Broly had an hour with Golden Freeza and couldn't do what Hakaishin Toppo did with just two blows.

Keep in mind that Golden Freeza in DBS Broly was said to be much stronger than he was in the ToP.

Mmm I watched the movie 3 times and don't remember that line being spoken. I do remember Vegeta warning Goku that he should take Freeza seriously because he COULD become much stronger given that he grew a lot in just 4 months and one day might come to Earth to kill them, besides they didn't witness Golden Freeza fighting, so they wouldn't know if he indeed surpassed them. Actually, IMO if Freeza got much stronger, he should be on par with SS Broly or at least have given him some trouble or entertainment but was just a punching bag and Broly got bored of him and left.

I can, however, agree that he should be stronger than his ToP iteration, just not that much, he was taking his revenge slowly until Broly came along. Still, not strong enough to close the huge gap between himself and Hakaishin Toppo. I don't see movie Freeza lasting an hour against Hakaishin Toppo (who didn't even sweat it) like he did against SS Broly.
I'd still put Hakaishin Toppo above SS Broly

[PFM18]

It wasn't really an excuse. Back then people thought there was a Base Goku comparable to his Buu level and another Base Goku who was as strong as Super Saiyan God.

People didn't know why Base Goku could be so strong that Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks couldn't budge an equivalent of him and then be implied to be weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Trunks.

I suppose the reality is that it was neither of those things. There's just one Base Goku that's not as weak as his Buu level and not as strong as Super Saiyan God.

It was an excuse. The entire purpose of it's inception is just people arguing from a position of disbelief. "There's no way Cabba is that strong!" Or "There's no way Trunks is that strong!" Without anything objective or any evidence of any kind. The only reason for it's existence is because people don't want to believe that some of these characters are that strong.

There's also people that say RoF Goku>>>BoG SSG Goku which also has no basis in reality. You're right; the reality falls somewhere in between being way above his Buu level but weaker than Super Saiyan God.

[Amir]

Well, SS Broly had an hour with Golden Freeza and couldn't do what Hakaishin Toppo did with just two blows.

Keep in mind that Golden Freeza in DBS Broly was said to be much stronger than he was in the ToP.

Mmm I watched the movie 3 times and don't remember that line being spoken. I do remember Vegeta warning Goku that he should take Freeza seriously because he COULD become much stronger given that he grew a lot in just 4 months and one day might come to Earth to kill them, besides they didn't witness Golden Freeza fighting, so they wouldn't know if he indeed surpassed them. Actually, IMO if Freeza got much stronger, he should be on par with SS Broly or at least have given him some trouble or entertainment but was just a punching bag and Broly got bored of him and left.

I can, however, agree that he should be stronger than his ToP iteration, just not that much, he was taking his revenge slowly until Broly came along. Still, not strong enough to close the huge gap between himself and Hakaishin Toppo. I don't see movie Freeza lasting an hour against Hakaishin Toppo (who didn't even sweat it) like he did against SS Broly.
I'd still put Hakaishin Toppo above SS Broly

Are you serious? Do you really think GoD Toppo can beat 2 SSJ Blue in more seconds? GoD Toppo was Vegeta level, and Vegeta easily lost to Broly. Blue Vegeta in the Broly movie was stronger than ToP Blue Evolution Vegeta.

If GoD Toppo is above SSJ Broly then so is Vegeta and he is not.

[Bullza]

I watched the Basil/Buu and Lavender/Gohan fights again.

I'd probably say that Basil and Lavender were Super Saiyan level. Well closer to it than Base level. Perhaps closest to the likes of a suppressed Perfect Cell or something.

Buu is at least Super Saiyan 2 level and he wailed on Basil and he was still able to stand whereas Super Saiyan 2 Teen Gohan easily killed a Cell Jr with one blow. Lavender is tricker because he fought on par with both Base and Super Saiyan Gohan but he was laughing about against the former, so was probably just toying with him and was caught by surprise when he was blinded and still able to block him.

[ankokudaishogun]

It was an excuse. The entire purpose of it's inception is just people arguing from a position of disbelief. "There's no way Cabba is that strong!" Or "There's no way Trunks is that strong!" Without anything objective or any evidence of any kind. The only reason for it's existence is because people don't want to believe that some of these characters are that strong.

It's a stortelling issue with the DBS anime: they didn't manage to show or inform the viewer that Base Cabba and Base Trunks were stronger than SS3 Gotenks.
In neither cases Vegeta and Goku are suggested being holding back beyond not transforming-
And this is especially jarring with Trunks, as we did know both his previous power and Dabra's power: it's unlikely he'd manage to get stronger than Gotenks just by himself without any knowledge on God Ki.
If he actually managed to improve that much, it would made sense for the characters to comment on it, while they only comment on his SS2
This implies his base-power was as expected from somebody without God Ki, as a strong-as-a-powered-by-God-ki base without knowledge on God Ki would REQUIRE the characters reacting to it.

Tl;dr: bad storytelling. We'll have to wait next series to see if they did decide whether Goku&Vegeta in Base are stronger than SS3 Gotenks or not.

[Miracles]

The problem is...Fans take TOEI filler seriously. Copy Vegeta arc with SSJ3 Gotenks getting pwned by base Vegeta or Krillin somehow being able to even stand in the presence of Blue is all hogwash. Vegeta going Blue against Trunks? lolol, When have we ever seen in Toriyama's canonical Dragonball or Dragonball Super movies a Goku turning SSJ for some wimp like Krillin and allow him to even struggle with an attack from it? The fandom exaggerated the base forms because of TOEI's bad writing that were not from Toriyama stories and scripts.

[ruler9871]

The problem is...Fans take TOEI filler seriously. Copy Vegeta arc with SSJ3 Gotenks getting pwned by base Vegeta or Krillin somehow being able to even stand in the presence of Blue is all hogwash. Vegeta going Blue against Trunks? lolol, When have we ever seen in Toriyama's canonical Dragonball or Dragonball Super movies a Goku turning SSJ for some wimp like Krillin and allow him to even struggle with an attack from it? The fandom exaggerated the base forms because of TOEI's bad writing that were not from Toriyama stories and scripts.

1. There is no such thing as "filler" in the DBS Anime. Since the anime is not an adaption of another work. Just because you don't like an event in a series doesn't mean ot isnt valid.

2. The Krillin stuff has been explain numerous times. In the show, Goku was outright said to have been holding back in SSB (which is possible due to SSB's perfect Ki control). Yet people wanna act willfully ignorant of this fact.

3. Enough with this blind worship of Toriyama's "script". Most of the characters were not given any strict powerscale in his outline, that's where the power differences between the anime and manga come from.

4. There's nothing wrong with base Goku & Vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, since he's way weaker than BoG SSG Goku and both Goku & Vegeta surpassed that in their base forms after BoG (a fact people only deny out of bias).

5. If you want to talk about bad powerscaling, then talk about stuff in the manga like SSJ1 Caulifla being only a little stronger than Namek arc SSJ1, yet being able to hurt Golden Freeza (who should one-shot her in his 1st form), or Berzerk Kale being MSSB level yet getting up by fodder Pride Troopers (that SSJ1 Goku & Vegeta could easily slap) and have to fuse just to get rid of them, or Gohan being only base Goku level at the start of the ToP only to randomly be equal to SSJ1 Kefla later on, etc.

[ruler9871]

It was an excuse. The entire purpose of it's inception is just people arguing from a position of disbelief. "There's no way Cabba is that strong!" Or "There's no way Trunks is that strong!" Without anything objective or any evidence of any kind. The only reason for it's existence is because people don't want to believe that some of these characters are that strong.

It's a stortelling issue with the DBS anime: they didn't manage to show or inform the viewer that Base Cabba and Base Trunks were stronger than SS3 Gotenks.
In neither cases Vegeta and Goku are suggested being holding back beyond not transforming-
And this is especially jarring with Trunks, as we did know both his previous power and Dabra's power: it's unlikely he'd manage to get stronger than Gotenks just by himself without any knowledge on God Ki.
If he actually managed to improve that much, it would made sense for the characters to comment on it, while they only comment on his SS2
This implies his base-power was as expected from somebody without God Ki, as a strong-as-a-powered-by-God-ki base without knowledge on God Ki would REQUIRE the characters reacting to it.

Tl;dr: bad storytelling. We'll have to wait next series to see if they did decide whether Goku&Vegeta in Base are stronger than SS3 Gotenks or not.

Again, God ki has nothing to do with raw power. Your entire arguments are based on this misconception. There's no need for the story to tell the audience that base Cabba & Future Trunks are stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks before hand when they can simply show this through their feats.

[Miracles]

The problem is...Fans take TOEI filler seriously. Copy Vegeta arc with SSJ3 Gotenks getting pwned by base Vegeta or Krillin somehow being able to even stand in the presence of Blue is all hogwash. Vegeta going Blue against Trunks? lolol, When have we ever seen in Toriyama's canonical Dragonball or Dragonball Super movies a Goku turning SSJ for some wimp like Krillin and allow him to even struggle with an attack from it? The fandom exaggerated the base forms because of TOEI's bad writing that were not from Toriyama stories and scripts.

1. There is no such thing as "filler" in the DBS Anime. Since the anime is not an adaption of another work. Just because you don't like an event in a series doesn't mean ot isnt valid.

2. The Krillin stuff has been explain numerous times. In the show, Goku was outright said to have been holding back in SSB (which is possible due to SSB's perfect Ki control). Yet people wanna act willfully ignorant of this fact.

3. Enough with this blind worship of Toriyama's "script". Most of the characters were not given any strict powerscale in his outline, that's where the power differences between the anime and manga come from.

4. There's nothing wrong with base Goku & Vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, since he's way weaker than BoG SSG Goku and both Goku & Vegeta surpassed that in their base forms after BoG (a fact people only deny out of bias).

5. If you want to talk about bad powerscaling, then talk about stuff in the manga like SSJ1 Caulifla being only a little stronger than Namek arc SSJ1, yet being able to hurt Golden Freeza (who should one-shot her in his 1st form), or Berzerk Kale being MSSB level yet getting up by fodder Pride Troopers (that SSJ1 Goku & Vegeta could easily slap) and have to fuse just to get rid of them, or Gohan being only base Goku level at the start of the ToP only to randomly be equal to SSJ1 Kefla later on, etc.

The manga just like the anime has filler. For the very fact that they input their own original ideas and those ideas contradict what Toriyama has written. They are both adapted from his outlines. We never have nonsense in Toriyama's canon like Goku struggling with Krillin in his strongest form. The reason why it's nonsense is because the very fact that Blue's Ki control has nothing to do with the amount of power one can control but with how one increases their power through containing the ki within the individual in order to raise battle power. In Toriyama's canon [authority] when a character uses their best transformation, it's full power.

When has a weakling, like a master Roshi; dodging a top tier character in Jiren a few times, regardless of the technique he was using, ever happened in Toriyama story? Roshi's battle power in Toriyama's manga wouldn't allow for such nonsense. I agree with you about base Goku/Vegeta being stronger than Gotenks SSJ3. That truthfully fits in with Toriyama's BOG movie. Where base Goku was able to battle Beerus due to getting a power up from absorbing god powers. The rest of the stuff you posted is really just your opinion. Nothing factual backing them. Some of TOEI and Toyotaro's views of Super vs Toriyama's view does not match up.

[PFM18]

The problem is...Fans take TOEI filler seriously. Copy Vegeta arc with SSJ3 Gotenks getting pwned by base Vegeta or Krillin somehow being able to even stand in the presence of Blue is all hogwash. Vegeta going Blue against Trunks? lolol, When have we ever seen in Toriyama's canonical Dragonball or Dragonball Super movies a Goku turning SSJ for some wimp like Krillin and allow him to even struggle with an attack from it?

Aside from what was already said about the DBS anime not having filler, this is kind of a mess. Base Goku>SSJ3 Gotenks isnt something that should be dismissed at all. It would be a huge inconsistency if that WASN'T the case.

-Gotenks was told he would be useless against Freeza, and then Base Goku fought him evenly. Final Form Freeza~Base Goku>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks was a fact long before it was depicted in the Potafu arc.
-Base Goku is able to entertain Beerus when fighting him.
-SSJ Goku at the end of BoG was stated to be stronger than SSG was moments prior. How the hell could his Base form be weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks if his SSJ is stronger than SSG was?

The fandom exaggerated the base forms because of TOEI's bad writing that were not from Toriyama stories and scripts

This is just wrong. We had every indication that there base forms were AT LEAST that strong, nothing was exaggerated. Having Base Goku SSJ3 Gotenks level is a huge downplay. I mean, you're just mistaken.

4. There's nothing wrong with base Goku & Vegeta being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks, since he's way weaker than BoG SSG Goku and both Goku & Vegeta surpassed that in their base forms after BoG (a fact people only deny out of bias).

That's not a fact. Actually, there is quite literally no evidence of that being the case whatsoever.

[Miracles]

The problem is...Fans take TOEI filler seriously. Copy Vegeta arc with SSJ3 Gotenks getting pwned by base Vegeta or Krillin somehow being able to even stand in the presence of Blue is all hogwash. Vegeta going Blue against Trunks? lolol, When have we ever seen in Toriyama's canonical Dragonball or Dragonball Super movies a Goku turning SSJ for some wimp like Krillin and allow him to even struggle with an attack from it?

Aside from what was already said about the DBS anime not having filler, this is kind of a mess. Base Goku>SSJ3 Gotenks isnt something that should be dismissed at all. It would be a huge inconsistency if that WASN'T the case.

-Gotenks was told he would be useless against Freeza, and then Base Goku fought him evenly. Final Form Freeza~Base Goku>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks was a fact long before it was depicted in the Potafu arc.
-Base Goku is able to entertain Beerus when fighting him.
-SSJ Goku at the end of BoG was stated to be stronger than SSG was moments prior. How the hell could his Base form be weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks if his SSJ is stronger than SSG was?

The fandom exaggerated the base forms because of TOEI's bad writing that were not from Toriyama stories and scripts

This is just wrong. We had every indication that there base forms were AT LEAST that strong, nothing was exaggerated. Having Base Goku SSJ3 Gotenks level is a huge downplay. I mean, you're just mistaken.

You are correct only about Gotenks situation. It's totally fine to have base Goku stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks since in Toriyama's BOG movie, base Goku was fighting Beerus. But the rest of the examples are simply failures by TOEI and Toyotaro and simply filler and don't add up with Toriyama's canonical story.

[PFM18]

The problem is...Fans take TOEI filler seriously. Copy Vegeta arc with SSJ3 Gotenks getting pwned by base Vegeta or Krillin somehow being able to even stand in the presence of Blue is all hogwash. Vegeta going Blue against Trunks? lolol, When have we ever seen in Toriyama's canonical Dragonball or Dragonball Super movies a Goku turning SSJ for some wimp like Krillin and allow him to even struggle with an attack from it?

Aside from what was already said about the DBS anime not having filler, this is kind of a mess. Base Goku>SSJ3 Gotenks isnt something that should be dismissed at all. It would be a huge inconsistency if that WASN'T the case.

-Gotenks was told he would be useless against Freeza, and then Base Goku fought him evenly. Final Form Freeza~Base Goku>>>>>SSJ3 Gotenks was a fact long before it was depicted in the Potafu arc.
-Base Goku is able to entertain Beerus when fighting him.
-SSJ Goku at the end of BoG was stated to be stronger than SSG was moments prior. How the hell could his Base form be weaker than SSJ3 Gotenks if his SSJ is stronger than SSG was?

The fandom exaggerated the base forms because of TOEI's bad writing that were not from Toriyama stories and scripts

This is just wrong. We had every indication that there base forms were AT LEAST that strong, nothing was exaggerated. Having Base Goku SSJ3 Gotenks level is a huge downplay. I mean, you're just mistaken.

You are correct only about Gotenks situation. It's totally fine to have base Goku stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks since in Toriyama's BOG movie, base Goku was fighting Beerus. But the rest of the examples are simply failures by TOEI and Toyotaro and simply filler and don't add up with Toriyama's canonical story.

Not sure what exactly you are trying to say, but clearly you don't understand what the word "filler" means.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I find the "characters aren't this strong because filler" argument to be fallacious, as it presumes that there exists an unchanging source foundation that we can reliably dissect and compare to.

Newsflash: we don't have that. Toriyama has his own ideas, yes, but without seeing those written down and presented to us as the formal original source material that the anime and manga derive from, we can't claim that things aren't valid on the grounds of "filler" or "non-canon" because, newsflash again: we have nothing concrete to compare to to say that this particular nitpicked idea isn't as valid as this other nitpicked idea.

Now, on the grounds of inconsistent writing and/or poor representation of earlier/showings? Sure. But don't claim something is/isn't "filler/non-canon" for DBS. That's just not how it works.

Now back on topic, I've always envisioned base Goku/Vegeta, similar peer opponents like Final Form Freeza, etc., to be on the level of Majin Buu to some capacity. Strong enough to contend with that level at full strength, and with sufficient skill able to compete above that at the level of lower gods like SSG/B with maybe Super Saiyan or something on top.