Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hulk10]

I dunno about 18 being stronger than base Goku ToP.

[Hugo Boss]

when it comes to the world and story of Dragonball, Toriyama is the sole authority.

Technically, his influence doesn’t come from authority, but from the fact that he is given free reign on the creativity aspect of modern Dragon Ball, so the workers try to be faithful to his outlines and recomendations. But in the end, it’s not Toriyama’s work that is being delivered, it’s Toyotaro’s or Nagamine’s. Their embellishments to the plot points outlined by Toriyama are the story we are discussing in this thread.

Incorrect. Toyotoro and TOEI have stated Super is Toriyama's story line. They are just free to add in details but even those details get approved by Toriyama which shows his authority. His movies, which are solely his script alone is the highest authority. Toriyama even made a statement that he alone can change things around with characters cause it is his world and he understands the personalities. The power scaling is totally based on Toriyama's plot. No one can usurp the creator.

You are making things up here. They never stated that. If you research interviews from directors like Nakamura, you will see the story of DBS is actually a product of Toriyama’s original draft being fleshed out to screen, occasionally with ideas that didn’t come from him. Toriyama himself admitted he can’t get too deep in some aspects, like telling the process of Zamas falling to the dark side.

Toriyama stating he can change things at his will, if he ever said that, makes me remember his relationship with Torishima, who eventually demanded changes on the original manga. Guess who was the authority back then.

[Loputousu]

He was clowned by base Goku at the ToP though. I wouldn't put them close.


She isn't stronger than base Goku.

Base Goku > Base Gohan [ToP] ~ Piccolo > 18.

We don't know how 18 is compared to SS3 Gotenks though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQu7wRmMQX0

18 lifted an opponent that Base Goku couldn't, with absurd ease.

Anyone who thinks 18, who didn't train at all, is above SS3 Gotenks, is completely out of their mind.

She trained before the ToP wth Krillin.

Lol that didn't put her above SS3 Gotenks. Anyone who actually thinks Android 18 is >>>> SS3 Gotenks can't be taken seriously. That is insane.

[PFM18]

18 is not stronger than Base Goku and Piccolo's Makankosoppo in the ToP is not SSB level. Neither of these claims are grounded in reality.

[DestructoDisc]

18 is not stronger than Base Goku and Piccolo's Makankosoppo in the ToP is not SSB level. Neither of these claims are grounded in reality.

Then explain how did Piccolo's Makankosoppo blast a hole through Saonel and Pirina after less than 1 minute of charging. Saonel and Pirina were fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan who's around SSJB level in the ToP. For someone that you guys claim to be only Base Gohan level he sure has an incredibly strong attack that he can do in 30 seconds. 18 being stronger than Base Goku is debatable, but she can for sure solo Z.

[Miracles]

Technically, his influence doesn’t come from authority, but from the fact that he is given free reign on the creativity aspect of modern Dragon Ball, so the workers try to be faithful to his outlines and recomendations. But in the end, it’s not Toriyama’s work that is being delivered, it’s Toyotaro’s or Nagamine’s. Their embellishments to the plot points outlined by Toriyama are the story we are discussing in this thread.

Incorrect. Toyotoro and TOEI have stated Super is Toriyama's story line. They are just free to add in details but even those details get approved by Toriyama which shows his authority. His movies, which are solely his script alone is the highest authority. Toriyama even made a statement that he alone can change things around with characters cause it is his world and he understands the personalities. The power scaling is totally based on Toriyama's plot. No one can usurp the creator.

You are making things up here. They never stated that. If you research interviews from directors like Nakamura, you will see the story of DBS is actually a product of Toriyama’s original draft being fleshed out to screen, occasionally with ideas that didn’t come from him. Toriyama himself admitted he can’t get too deep in some aspects, like telling the process of Zamas falling to the dark side.

Toriyama stating he can change things at his will, if he ever said that, makes me remember his relationship with Torishima, who eventually demanded changes on the original manga. Guess who was the authority back then.

Since this is somewhat off topic, this will be the last time I am giving out facts. So you can revisit what Canon [Authority] is...

Spoiler:

Are the values of Dragon Ball also to be found in Dragon Ball Super?

I don't think Mr. Toriyama made this series to promote specific values. He wanted to create a fascinating story that would be entertaining for everyone. If you find messages in this work, they probably come from yourself. Mr. Toriyama did not put them there. Of course, friendship and family are mentioned in the series, but that's not what Mr. Toriyama wanted to put forward. He just needed those elements to make the story interesting.

Working under constant time pressure with the anime

The storyline created by Mr. Toriyama is a starting point, both for the anime and the manga, but then, each one of us works independently. Therefore, both the story and the timing are often out of sync, but that does not worry us. The possibilities of anime and manga are different, so each one of us tries to adapt the scenario in the best possible way. So there is almost no direct link between the anime and the manga.

The storyline of Dragon Ball Super

I receive the whole story, but it's only a narrative outline. There is no dialogue, for instance. So I have to complete the story and sometimes divert its course, while keeping the main storylines.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/6 ... comic_con/

You have a little freedom to suggest changes to Toriyama's outline, so what's the biggest alteration you've made?

Fundamentally, I don't deviate from the major plotlines that Toriyama's laid down. As far as the plot getting from A to B, that's written as Toriyama it lays down. But as far as the details between those plot points, I'm free to fill them in myself. The Trunks arc within Dragon Ball Super will hit the U.S. soon, and while a certain reveal is the same in the manga, anime, and Toriyama's outline, both the anime and manga have different ways of getting there, each taking advantage of the unique aspects of their medium, so I hope everyone enjoys comparing them. The parts I really want my fans and readers to look at are the comedic gags, because I'm pretty free to create those!
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/interv ... ou/.107579

Speaking of the manga, I want to ask you two about how you put the manga together. I hear Toriyama-sensei checks the storyboards for each chapter.
Toriyama: That’s right.

Toyotarō:
Since Chapter 1 I’ve used Toriyama-sensei‘s plot as a basis, but have been allowed to expand on it.

Toriyama:
It’s better that way.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... b-version/

Q: I've heard Toriyama has a direct role into your work, right?
T: Not only mine: he supervises every storyboard related to the Dragon Ball universe.

https://www.reddit.com/r/dbz/comments/6 ... vival_arc/

Q: - Does Toei Animation have the power to change Toriyama scripts? R: - (Both laugh) No. We can express requests, but we can not ask God to change.

Q: - Will Goten and Trunks be a little more prominent? A: - It depends on Toriyama's scripts.

Q: - Why is Yamcha now comical? A: - It depends on Toriyama's scripts.

Q: - Will there be new transformations with the tails of Saiyan? A: - It depends on Toriyama's scripts.

Q: - Will Yajirobe reappear? A: - It depends on Toriyama's scripts.

Q: - Why is Gohan less important than before? A: - It depends on Toriyama's scripts.

Q: - Will Cell come back? A: - It depends on Toriyama's scripts.

Q: - Why does Future Trunks have blue hair? A: - You're wrong, Trunks is not a Super Saiyan Blue ... (Mision Tokyo shows them the original artwork, and they understand the question) Ah, it's Toriyama who drew it that way.

In closing: Toei has given Toriyama the right to continue as long as he sees fit. Which means we could be getting a never-ending Super, akin to "Doraemon" the merch money, the spinoff aspect, the continuous video-games that will never die. Let's remember that Dragon Ball was never a series that died out. The video games alone kept the series relevant even when it was done in Japan.

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/2017/11/04/in ... del-manga/
https://dragonballuniverse.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:21238

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/9266 ... changes%2F

I don't need to make things up...When it comes to Dragonball, everyone knows who the authority is; Toriyama! He decides who is stronger than who and in what ways characters can use said powers. He is the chief supremacy of the Dragonball world story.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Getting back to DBS-relevant strength discussion, as always, take the adaptations in vacuums for the most part. The movies never happened bar Broly's movie at the moment, and everything within them counts since they're produced in that manner.

Makes things a lot simpler, in my opinion.

So, I do wonder how much stronger SSG and SSB are compared to SS now that the Broly movie is out. The fact that Broly's Oozaru power, of which we've had a pretty clear idea on in general over the past 3 decades, really makes things interesting. An idea I've been entertaining is the idea that each of Broly's boosts are equal to that of Super Saiyan.

He gets 50 times stronger to match SS Vegeta, then 50 times stronger again to match SSG Vegeta, 50 times stronger to match SSB Goku, 50 times stronger with proper Super Saiyan to match SS Gogeta, then 50 times stronger to match what would be SSG.

Then again, this also puts SSFP Broly at 50 times weaker than SSB Gogeta, and that doesn't seem right either. But we know that the jump from SS to Full-Power wasn't enough to overcome SS to SSB Gogeta compared to how Broly matched SSB Goku earlier after going full Oozaru Base from his permanent SS-level base.

[PFM18]

18 is not stronger than Base Goku and Piccolo's Makankosoppo in the ToP is not SSB level. Neither of these claims are grounded in reality.

Then explain how did Piccolo's Makankosoppo blast a hole through Saonel and Pirina after less than 1 minute of charging. Saonel and Pirina were fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan who's around SSJB level in the ToP. For someone that you guys claim to be only Base Gohan level he sure has an incredibly strong attack that he can do in 30 seconds. 18 being stronger than Base Goku is debatable, but she can for sure solo Z.

Ultimate Gohan didn't go full-power against Saonel and Pirina until the very end of the fight when he used his KHH. And that's before he broke his limits against Koichirator and was STILL weaker than Toppo who is even with SSB Goku/Vegeta.

SSB Vegeta~Toppo>Ultimate Gohan(Limits Broken)>Ultimate Gohan>Piccolo's SBC>Suppressed Ultimate Gohan~Saonel and Pirina.

[Hugo Boss]

Since this is somewhat off topic, this will be the last time I am giving out facts. So you can revisit what Canon [Authority] is...

I don't need to make things up...When it comes to Dragonball, everyone knows who the authority is; Toriyama! He decides who is stronger than who and in what ways characters can use said powers. He is the chief supremacy of the Dragonball world story.

Cut that crap. You are the one that keeps repeating this nonsense of canon authority in a powerlevel discussion.

Quoting the conclusion of the links you provided:

In closing: Toei has given Toriyama the right to continue as long as he sees fit.

This pretty much tells everything you need to know. Toriyama do as much as he sees fit, because that prerrogative was given to him.

Anyway, powerlevels of the same characters vary between the manga and the anime. Kaioken Blue is a thing in the anime and doesn’t exist in the manga. Toriyama or anyone above him never told if it counts or not. So, trying to guess which parts of the story can be disregarded is a waste of our times.

[Miracles]

Since headcanons are shattered, now that everyone sees TOEI and Toyotaro are subject to Toriyama as well as his Dragonball story concerning power levels...

Well he seemed like he was very close to Base Goku. Not quite at his level but close enough that he should be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks as well.

Which would put him far above the likes of Basil and Lavender. Not sure if that's the intention though. In the manga he was weaker than Piccolo and Frost.

He was clowned by base Goku at the ToP though. I wouldn't put them close.

How on earth do you guys explain Android 18 >> Base Goku and Base Goku >>>>> SS3 Gotenks without the two base and retcon theories?

The manga DID confirm the two base theory as canon in a sense, since in the anime Goku was alleged to have SBG instead of SSG. It got retconned to SSG because of the manga. That's exactly what the retcon theory is.

She isn't stronger than base Goku.

Base Goku > Base Gohan [ToP] ~ Piccolo > 18.

We don't know how 18 is compared to SS3 Gotenks though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQu7wRmMQX0

18 lifted an opponent that Base Goku couldn't, with absurd ease.

Anyone who thinks 18, who didn't train at all, is above SS3 Gotenks, is completely out of their mind.

The narration outright stated Tupper caught Goku off guard. That's the reason why Goku couldn't get loose in base. 18 lifting Tupper up later and tossing him by no means proves that she is stronger than base Goku. This is not Marvel or DC where strength is personified in lifts but in actual combat. We don't really know whose base level is stronger between 18 and Goku. Both were chilling in a Black hole later on like nothing.

[DestructoDisc]

18 is not stronger than Base Goku and Piccolo's Makankosoppo in the ToP is not SSB level. Neither of these claims are grounded in reality.

Then explain how did Piccolo's Makankosoppo blast a hole through Saonel and Pirina after less than 1 minute of charging. Saonel and Pirina were fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan who's around SSJB level in the ToP. For someone that you guys claim to be only Base Gohan level he sure has an incredibly strong attack that he can do in 30 seconds. 18 being stronger than Base Goku is debatable, but she can for sure solo Z.

Ultimate Gohan didn't go full-power against Saonel and Pirina until the very end of the fight when he used his KHH. And that's before he broke his limits against Koichirator and was STILL weaker than Toppo who is even with SSB Goku/Vegeta.

SSB Vegeta~Toppo>Ultimate Gohan(Limits Broken)>Ultimate Gohan>Piccolo's SBC>Suppressed Ultimate Gohan~Saonel and Pirina.

No, he went full power after he saved Piccolo from Pirina's attack. He said it himself.



After that the 2 U6 namekians were able to fight on par with him, yet Saonel, when he got hit by Piccolo's SBC was more impressed by Piccolo than by Ultimate Gohan's power. I really don't see how Piccolo is only base Gohan level, when he can make a SSJB level attack in less than a minute.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Piccolo's Makankkosappo has impressive piercing power, being able to hit far above his normal level.

It's more a feat for him being able to make the attack stronger PLUS not having to worry about the attack killing Saonel and Pirina. We see in the Universe 6/7 Tournament that he's upgraded its effectiveness quite a lot since he first brought it out against Raditz, being able to pierce even Vados's dome. Piccolo has likely improved the technique further and gotten stronger himself in the time since then.

[Bullza]

Piccolo shattered Vadodara barrier so his SBC is apparently very impressive.

[RecolorSaiyan]

How do you think Vegeta's final flash from episode 122 compares to the episode 109-110 spirit bomb?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

How do you think Vegeta's final flash from episode 122 compares to the episode 109-110 spirit bomb?

Hard to say.

The Genkidama obviously wasn't meant to kill Jiren, and SSB Goku only BARELY managed to survive against all odds. Similar to Piccolo's Makankkosappo, its amped ability to hit above the user's ordinary level of strength seems to have been exaggerated in DBS, at least when sufficiently charged.

[PFM18]

Then explain how did Piccolo's Makankosoppo blast a hole through Saonel and Pirina after less than 1 minute of charging. Saonel and Pirina were fighting on par with Ultimate Gohan who's around SSJB level in the ToP. For someone that you guys claim to be only Base Gohan level he sure has an incredibly strong attack that he can do in 30 seconds. 18 being stronger than Base Goku is debatable, but she can for sure solo Z.

Ultimate Gohan didn't go full-power against Saonel and Pirina until the very end of the fight when he used his KHH. And that's before he broke his limits against Koichirator and was STILL weaker than Toppo who is even with SSB Goku/Vegeta.

SSB Vegeta~Toppo>Ultimate Gohan(Limits Broken)>Ultimate Gohan>Piccolo's SBC>Suppressed Ultimate Gohan~Saonel and Pirina.

No, he went full power after he saved Piccolo from Pirina's attack. He said it himself.



After that the 2 U6 namekians were able to fight on par with him, yet Saonel, when he got hit by Piccolo's SBC was more impressed by Piccolo than by Ultimate Gohan's power. I really don't see how Piccolo is only base Gohan level, when he can make a SSJB level attack in less than a minute.

You literally just reiterated my point. He went full-power and then destroyed them. He said "Now I'm going FP" and any semblance of them having a chance was gone. They are weaker than Gohan, who is weaker than his LB self, who is weaker than SSB fighters like SSB Vegeta and Toppo. So a "SSB level" SBC is not required. Piccolo was explicitly below Base Goku before the ToP.

[Nevaeh]

Re-watching the movie it dawned on me; Goku and Vegeta are still nowhere near Beerus despite years of improvement

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Re-watching the movie it dawned on me; Goku and Vegeta are still nowhere near Beerus despite years of improvement

Well yeah. As soon as it was established that Super Saiyan Blue FUSION was what was needed to reach the realm of God of Destruction, it was clear that Goku and Vegeta were never going to reach that level under normal conditions with their god-forms.

For Zeno's sake, it took an entirely new power-up in Ultra Instinct, a power used by the only beings superior to Gods of Destruction a.k.a. Angels, to surpass that stage definitively!

[Bullza]

Well Goku didn't use Kaio-ken in the movie nor did Vegetables use his Evolution. That would put them a lot closer.

Couldn't really have that in the movie though I suppose because it was only in the anime.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well Goku didn't use Kaio-ken in the movie nor did Vegetables use his Evolution. That would put them a lot closer.

Couldn't really have that in the movie though I suppose because it was only in the anime.

I don't think it does.

We have to remember that, although SSB Gogeta was indeed stronger than SSFP Broly, it wasn't by such a wide margin that he was many tens/hundreds of times greater, or at least it didn't seem to be that way. He had to put in effort to beat down Broly, who was DEFINITELY at least at the level of a God of Destruction. That's a HUGE margin, especially since base Gogeta is equal to SSB Goku and Vegeta given how his Super Saiyan form is equal in strength to Broly's.