MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 4/1/24!)

[KuririnNoKotoKa]

In this case I was thinking of the narrative pointing out that Vegeta went too far and there's no redemption for him anymore to let him go later, it kind of has a cynical message again, as long as you are useful you can get away with anything, maybe that's what Toriyama was going for.

Vegeta's willful sacrifice still has payoff, I just think everyone misreads it as being in the explosion. That one is absolutely dishonest. There is no meaning behind sacrificing your life in a world you can be revived without any real cost. Boo danced on his god damn corpse.

Now, sacrificing your own individuality in order to save the Earth while merging with your hated rival after being given a second chance only to learn first hand how utterly useless you were? Yeah, that's an honest character change moment. Vegetto wasn't ever gonna last, this much is obvious and even more so when you take a more cynical look at Toriyama's publishing schedule, as in, he likely was already writing them splitting by the time anyone even saw Vegeta being willing to fuse, but the intent is very much there.

Goku didn't have to listen to Vegeta, regardless of thematic incoherence I consider it poorly written since genki dama is framed as a final attempt at defeating Boo, while they can just call Gohan and Gotenks in if it doesn't work.

That's possible, but the Genki Dama works as a much stronger thematic ending to Goku's character so I don't really care all that much about that slight incoherence.

Unlike the anime's numerous fuck ups in this part, while Goku is serious at the beginning, he is shown as coming to genuinely enjoying the fight against Boo, which makes total sense as he is the first fighter in the entire arc where Goku could sincerely cut loose.

Of course Toriyama wouldn't ever let his characters be happy, so Goku robs himself of the best fight in his life with SS3 (the tool that enabled said fight to begin with) and forces him to work with everyone else's power to finish off Boo.

When you pile in other events from the arc, such as:

- The implication that there isn't much else in heaven for him to surpass, or even if there was anything to begin with since Gohan is still the benchmark by the time he comes back to Earth (note: Goku is fully aware of what happens when Gohan cuts loose, yet still actively encourages him to get angry and unleash all that power, almost as if he wanted trouble to happen... );
- Vegeta being a total pushover at the end of the day and the kids either having no real desire for fighting despite all the power in the world being in their hands (which he does respect, but the mild disappointment is still very much present).

Yeah, it just had to end like it did. He just had to screw over Goku one last time to give the final push needed to end his story.

Interestingly enough in the manga Roshi still had to teach Goku how to fight, perhaps something he came up with when the anime was already done with ToP.

I am aware of that. The reason I generally ignore it is because not only it ignores Muten Roshi's role in Goku's training, it's horrendously dishonest to the very core of this story. Even when you strip everything out, Goku's goal of self improvement and desire to fight is always played in earnest. This, however, is not.

Besides, it's also written in a painfully on-the-nose way. I don't really like using this phrase often but it screams of some fanfic-y shit where the writer doesn't have a grasp of why Goku ticks as a character and attempts to "fix" it. There isn't a hint of self awareness either and, imho, it's genuinely disgusting and alongside the Evil Dragons arc, the worst piece of content ever put out in this franchise.

Makes sense, so basically his dissatisfaction with Goku's potrayal boils down to the fact that Toei wrote him as a character to sympathize with while he, like everyone else, are just meant to provide entertainment like he likes to say, he probably fucked Gohan extra hard in modern DB for the exact same reason he was dissatisfied with Goku.

With regards to Gohan, I think most people are just honestly reading too much into it. He just doesn't care about Gohan anymore. Even the stuff he did write with Gohan is largely harmless fluff. Him getting drunk and deflecting a shot at his wife has no real consequence. It's just funny seeing the nerdy guy shitfaced for once. F gives him a functional role, only stripping out Ultimate which was already gonna happen in BoG but fans whined about it.

How similar are Maron and Marron in Japanese?

Marron: マーロン
Maron: マロン

Kuririn's daughter has a longer sounding Ma.

[Tavarano]

Vegeta's willful sacrifice still has payoff, I just think everyone misreads it as being in the explosion. That one is absolutely dishonest. There is no meaning behind sacrificing your life in a world you can be revived without any real cost. Boo danced on his god damn corpse.

Now, sacrificing your own individuality in order to save the Earth while merging with your hated rival after being given a second chance only to learn first hand how utterly useless you were? Yeah, that's an honest character change moment. Vegetto wasn't ever gonna last, this much is obvious and even more so when you take a more cynical look at Toriyama's publishing schedule, as in, he likely was already writing them splitting by the time anyone even saw Vegeta being willing to fuse, but the intent is very much there.

At the time Vegeta thought that he will be reincarnated, and his comment that he's doing it even for Goku seems like a significant change given that he lived last decade being butthurt about him to the point that he took the M, how hard he must have been seething seeing ss3 from the afterlife. Being made into a fool one last time.

Him getting drunk and deflecting a shot at his wife has no real consequence. It's just funny seeing the nerdy guy shitfaced for once.

The scene with drunk Gohan is harmless in a comedic mood, but logically speaking it being played as a joke by characters is quite dehumanizing, since Toriyama doesn't have any serious/non-serious filter some stuff he writes are tension killers, such as this moment from Namek where Kuririn and Gohan dance, jump and laugh in front of Dende right after all his friends got brutally killed.


It could also be a reference to drunk Gohan from the DBZ movie 1, remake in Toriyama's style.

How similar are Maron and Marron in Japanese?

Marron: マーロン
Maron: マロン

Kuririn's daughter has a longer sounding Ma.

Are you Japanese?

And going back, super saiyan initially is a gag how? Fourth wall break on blonde hair?

[ruler9871]

snip

You aren't the only one to suggest that Toriyama is a nihilist:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=43065&p=1552988&hil ... t#p1552924

[Tavarano]

snip

You aren't the only one to suggest that Toriyama is a nihilist:
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=43065&p=1552988&hil ... t#p1552924

Hm, going by definitions now I'm not sure how to qualify his writing actually, nihilism is a viewpoint that nothing matters, cynicism is that everyone is motivated selfishly, they don't really fit to what Toriyama is doing I think.

[KuririnNoKotoKa]

At the time Vegeta thought that he will be reincarnated, and his comment that he's doing it even for Goku seems like a significant change given that he lived last decade being butthurt about him to the point that he took the M, how hard he must have been seething seeing ss3 from the afterlife. Being made into a fool one last time.

Oh, within Vegeta's head it's absolutely supposed to come as a selfless moment of redemption but... that's not how Dragon World or even Toriyama's head as an author ticks.

The scene with drunk Gohan is harmless in a comedic mood, but logically speaking it being played as a joke by characters is quite dehumanizing, since Toriyama doesn't have any serious/non-serious filter some stuff he writes are tension killers, such as this moment from Namek where Kuririn and Gohan dance, jump and laugh in front of Dende right after all his friends got brutally killed.

It could also be a reference to drunk Gohan from the DBZ movie 1, remake in Toriyama's style.

If there is anything to read in that, I'd say is Toriyama sending a message that Gohan isn't a goody two shoes, he has his own poison. Which sort of makes sense, seeing as there is a lot of underlying anger in Battle of Gods' script from people misunderstanding his work but... it's complicated.

Yusuke Watanabe is still credited as that movie's scriptwriter, unlike RoF where Toriyama is properly credited, and who knows how much truly is Toriyama.

Are you Japanese?

And going back, super saiyan initially is a gag how? Fourth wall break on blonde hair?

Nope, I don't speak Japanese at all, I just got a few notes

Super Saiyan itself, at least in context of the Namek arc alone, isn't a gag.

It is, however, completely flipped on our heads from the expectation built. It's got absolutely fuck all to do with all that was established earlier by Vegeta's expectations (which is a key point, it's not really "lore" per se, just what Vegeta believes it to be based on Saiyan folklore).

Even from a design standpoint, it's effectively got nothing to do with everything we associated with Saiyans. Obviously, it's been ingrained so hard into the franchise's iconography at this point that it's genuinely hard to separate them, but looking at Namek alone (and even Vegeta's first mention of it in the Saiyan arc which had effectively nothing to do with the real deal), Super Saiyan is still pulling the rug under us.

[Tavarano]

I'd say is Toriyama sending a message that Gohan isn't a goody two shoes, he has his own poison.

That interview where he complained about Goku I'm pretty sure that he said to the interviewer beforehand poison being inside DB not just single character related, and the answer didn't really touch the whole thing, maybe he didn't want to say or maybe it's because the interview didn't really linger on that, the second interview was in relation to depiction of human drama.

The latter is just dehumanization of the characters, no real emotional bonds, no emotional impact of events other than surfacely and sometimes not even that, he denies human affection in places where there should be (Goku's return from Yadrat very obvious) and even when he doesn't he makes it shady (testicle pillow huh?), the relationships are either garbage or off-panelled, death is treated like a joke from chapter 1 where Bulma tries to murder Goku and it never changes to the end where Vegeta and Goku play rock paper scissors after their sons die, modern DB makes universal destruction a literal child's play.

Another aspect of poison would be that he designs the story to be cynical, nihilistic, immoral or whatever else adjective is appriopriate. What you mentioned about 4 star dragon ball I see now went for all sacrifices, Chaozu, Piccolo, Vegeta do nothing, Goku dies to Cell on purpose, his death versus Raditz is turned into a gag, he refuses ressurection, and Android 17 fakes his.

Do you personally like Toriyama's style of writing? Because I don't like it in Dragon Ball at all, it is fine for a one-off gag manga, but for a story with an actual narrative to follow not really, it needs emotional investment and Toriyama effectively writes caricatures.

Regarding Bulma bringing her baby to the androids fight that was mentioned in the dissection, there was also this, she didn't seem particularly fond of.

[KuririnNoKotoKa]

That interview where he complained about Goku I'm pretty sure that he said to the interviewer beforehand poison being inside DB not just single character related, and the answer didn't really touch the whole thing, maybe he didn't want to say or maybe it's because the interview didn't really linger on that, the second interview was in relation to depiction of human drama.

Yeah, the poison is present in everyone, it's just Gohan tends to be the one to get the pass from people. Probably because he was "The Kid" for so long.

Remember: Gohan was pumped to fight when he arrived on Namek and against the Androids. Some chalk it to inconsistent characterization, but... You can't feel good about yourself for doing the right thing if there are no wrongs to right

The latter is just dehumanization of the characters, no real emotional bonds, no emotional impact of events other than surfacely and sometimes not even that, he denies human affection in places where there should be (Goku's return from Yadrat very obvious) and even when he doesn't he makes it shady (testicle pillow huh?), the relationships are either garbage or off-panelled, death is treated like a joke from chapter 1 where Bulma tries to murder Goku and it never changes to the end where Vegeta and Goku play rock paper scissors after their sons die, modern DB makes universal destruction a literal child's play.

There are real bonds. Goku and Kuririn, Goku and his grandpa/father, and the usual suspects.

That is all fine. Even real people aren't friends with everyone, we all have our favorites. That doesn't make any of those connections any less real.

The general lack of morality present in DB early on is definitely a thing and is very apparent early in the Red Ribbon arc, when the village chief is held hostage and offers to sacrifice himself to keep everyone safe. Goku is perfectly willing to accept that, as in early on he has no real morals but just acts on a whim and what his grandpa told him (and the village chief backpedaling to save his own ass is hilarious as well). And it really just escalates from there over and over as to justify Goku meeting stronger and stronger guys.

Another aspect of poison would be that he designs the story to be cynical, nihilistic, immoral or whatever else adjective is appriopriate. What you mentioned about 4 star dragon ball I see now went for all sacrifices, Chaozu, Piccolo, Vegeta do nothing, Goku dies to Cell on purpose, his death versus Raditz is turned into a gag, he refuses ressurection, and Android 17 fakes his.

Goku's death against Cell makes perfect sense though.

He died against Raditz and got a taste of heaven and how much stronger he could get there. Cell was a perfect opportunity for that.

Also, he totally wanted to avoid this:



Shame that didn't work out for him in the end

Do you personally like Toriyama's style of writing? Because I don't like it in Dragon Ball at all, it is fine for a one-off gag manga, but for a story with an actual narrative to follow not really, it needs emotional investment and Toriyama effectively writes caricatures.

What's not to love? It's a bizarre mix of cynical, earnest, mean spirited and wholesome all at once.

The story is about Goku's life as a martial artist and it is presented with utmost sincerity in that front. Every single individual piece that isn't Goku himself exists to serve that journey. Even when the story stopped being about him, as briefly as it was, it still ended up being a key piece in his continuous development as a martial artist.

The mix of a hyper dramatic wuxia tale with Toriyama's brand of rather amoral humor is the what defines DB as a whole. Sure, it isn't a more traditional emotional core to a story, but to say Goku isn't invested wholeheartedly in his journey is just being dishonest IMO.

That said, if your or anyone else's investment comes from seeing how the rest of the world evolves, yeah, there isn't much. Characters are developed and dropped without much care, sometimes even having the crux of their development become the punchline for a gag (re: Vegeta), world building is largely awful since it only exists in function of enabling Goku to fight more and outside Bulma, the only characters that will ever come to matter are other martial artists that can play off Goku in some way.

Regarding Bulma bringing her baby to the androids fight that was mentioned in the dissection, there was also this, she didn't seem particularly fond of.

Good catch on this one, it's hilarious

Parents are usually so in love with their children that most often completely forget that babies more often than not look ugly as fuck.

Bulma is so vain not even being a mom liked that.

[Tavarano]

There are real bonds. Goku and Kuririn.

What's not to love? It's a bizarre mix of cynical, earnest, mean spirited and wholesome all at once.

The thing that Toriyama writes characters only to be wholesome and happy when they actually shouldn't by any human standards. Goku and Kuririn isn't a real bond, it's very toxic, it's more like stockholm syndrome, Kuririn cheats the stone race to win and then enjoys the meal happily in front of hungry Goku, Kuririn gets beaten to a bloody pulp by Vegeta, Goku thwarts his efforts by insisting on letting Vegeta go, then tells straight to Kuririn's face that he doesn't give a fuck that Vegeta is still evil while giving him a senzu bean on Namek, coming back from Yadrat Goku doesn't even acknowledge Kuririn and then more or less coerces him into making that speech during android scene since Kuririn didn't want to look like a coward, then again Kuririn gets beaten because of Goku's senzu bean throw and in Boo arc Kuririn dies defending his family due to Goku wanting to have some fun.

Roshi and Bulma relationship is only fun surfacely, but it's actually more like:



There's also the fact that the way he writes doesn't result in organic character development, Gohan is a great example, his personality as an adult is as if his traumatic childhood never happened, because it "didn't happen" since Toriyama denies emotional impact of events, Gohan turning super saiyan in anime is more of an example of how actual character should behave.

That said, if your or anyone else's investment comes from seeing how the rest of the world evolves, yeah, there isn't much.

That too, but even when you look at Goku himself, the scenes from anime where Goku finds dead Kuririn after 22nd budokai or decides to help Upa holding the 4-star dragon ball on their own are pretty decent scenes as far as grasping audience's investment goes, but they're like complete antithesis of Toriyama's vision where death should be taken lightly and everything is fun.

[KuririnNoKotoKa]

The thing that Toriyama writes characters only to be wholesome and happy when they actually shouldn't by any human standards. Goku and Kuririn isn't a real bond, it's very toxic, it's more like stockholm syndrome, Kuririn cheats the stone race to win and then enjoys the meal happily in front of hungry Goku, Kuririn gets beaten to a bloody pulp by Vegeta, Goku thwarts his efforts by insisting on letting Vegeta go, then tells straight to Kuririn's face that he doesn't give a fuck that Vegeta is still evil while giving him a senzu bean on Namek, coming back from Yadrat Goku doesn't even acknowledge Kuririn and then more or less coerces him into making that speech during android scene since Kuririn didn't want to look like a coward, then again Kuririn gets beaten because of Goku's senzu bean throw and in Boo arc Kuririn dies defending his family due to Goku wanting to have some fun.

That too, but even when you look at Goku himself, the scenes from anime where Goku finds dead Kuririn after 22nd budokai or decides to help Upa holding the 4-star dragon ball on their own are pretty decent scenes as far as grasping audience's investment goes, but they're like complete antithesis of Toriyama's vision where death should be taken lightly and everything is fun.

Even in Toriyama's vision Goku absolutely loses it when he sees Kuririn dead. We never saw him as angry before and we never see him quite as angry after either, until Super Saiyan.

It's no coincidence that it's Kuririn's death that triggers unbridled anger in Goku. Twice. Even after he had long since surpassed him.

Even with Goku at his most detached from those around him, nonchalantly suggesting to let everyone die because they have the DB's and mild disappointment in learning that Vegeta and Gohan are dead, still reacted with utter shock seeing the rest of his friends murdered by Boo. Who is there, even if not shown? Kuririn.

When he came back to Earth from death for a day, the guy who he hung with the most before heading for the tournament? Kuririn.

This is a real relationship. Kuririn has utmost trust on Goku, after all, who else stood for him even when he was a selfish, bitter guy who only wanted martial arts to impress others and stop the bullying in his life? Even if it's support partially born out of Goku being a genuine moron (which Kuririn knows), it's still earnest. He finds out how Goku truly ticks in the Saiyan arc and just... covers up for him. Yes, he is an insecure guy and not the best person, he is definitely someone who would cherish what he has above anything else. Then he just does it again

From Goku's end, while yes, Bulma is technically the first person he ever met outside his grandpa, Kuririn is the first one like him: A martial artist whom he could share his passion.

Just look at the 22nd Budokai, even though Goku completely outclasses him, he still went in at full power out of respect for his friend. He doesn't do that against anyone unless they are the arc's final opponent or he is wholly outclassed. Didn't do it against Vegeta in their rematch, didn't do it against Gohan even when the latter begged him to show his strength in Super. Hell, him being a disrespectful ass with those weaker than he is is partly the reason why Zamasu went insane. Kuririn is arguably the most important person in Goku's life, only Grandpa Gohan is really any competition.

There's also the fact that the way he writes doesn't result in organic character development, Gohan is a great example, his personality as an adult is as if his traumatic childhood never happened, because it "didn't happen" since Toriyama denies emotional impact of events, Gohan turning super saiyan in anime is more of an example of how actual character should behave.

Gohan's always been more of a prop than character until the Boo arc, so no real surprises there.

For the rest of the cast, bar Goku himself obviously, are largely static until a huge "moment" happens and they change. It's quick and dirty.

[Kataphrut]

snip

You aren't the only one to suggest that Toriyama is a nihilist:
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... t#p1552924

Hm, going by definitions now I'm not sure how to qualify his writing actually, nihilism is a viewpoint that nothing matters, cynicism is that everyone is motivated selfishly, they don't really fit to what Toriyama is doing I think.

Other folks have discussed this more eloquently on this thread than I did in that post, but my view is less that Toriyama is a nihilistic writer and more that he's a childish writer, which have more in common than you'd expect.

Leaving aside the goofy, immature sense of humour and uncomplicated characters and stories, the reason I think his works appealed so strongly to kids while also sparking these discussions about toxicity and nihilism in adults is because he writes the way a kid would. The lack of lasting consequences or trauma is a big part of it. Everything is always forgiven, from Master Roshi being a lech to Vegeta murdering hundreds because characters being permanently angry with each other for the many awful-by-grownup-standards things they do to each other isn't fun. Even when things happen that do cause a serious emotional response like Krillin's first two deaths, it's all surface level and in the moment. This anger isn't a tool for character growth and it's never permanent, it just happens and then it's over. It's like when a child gets upset- intense and visceral, but quickly forgotten about once it's over.

He would never write a story about characters grappling with the traumatic experiences they've gone through. That's why it was so weird (and refreshing in my opinion) when the anime products do it. History of Trunks, Father of Goku, the Krillin-centric episodes of Super (shut up they were good). It's a level of maturity the franchise deserves but doesn't often get from it's creator because if it can't be used for a gag he doesn't want to know.

[superfan2024]

Once MistareFusion goes over the Namek Anime portion, I really hope they dissect the "production issues" behind Super Saiyan Goku v Freeza. The anime got too close to the manga release date wise, so I think that pretty much explains the slight slight slight disaster of a fight we had. For example, episode 105's second half was almost entirely flashbacks, and let's not forget the infamous Vegeta beating up Gohan then randomly returning in the same spot he was last episode thing.

[Gaffer Tape]

Once MistareFusion goes over the Namek Anime portion, I really hope they dissect the "production issues" behind Super Saiyan Goku v Freeza. The anime got too close to the manga release date wise, so I think that pretty much explains the slight slight slight disaster of a fight we had. For example, episode 105's second half was almost entirely flashbacks, and let's not forget the infamous Vegeta beating up Gohan then randomly returning in the same spot he was last episode thing.

Oh, I definitely, definitely plan to address that.

[superfan2024]

Once MistareFusion goes over the Namek Anime portion, I really hope they dissect the "production issues" behind Super Saiyan Goku v Freeza. The anime got too close to the manga release date wise, so I think that pretty much explains the slight slight slight disaster of a fight we had. For example, episode 105's second half was almost entirely flashbacks, and let's not forget the infamous Vegeta beating up Gohan then randomly returning in the same spot he was last episode thing.

Oh, I definitely, definitely plan to address that.

Ah, that's good! I think this "behind the scenes disaster" happened once again during the end of the Cell Arc. I think....

[NewKakarot]

So is Lance heading into the Freeza Arc for DBDTV now, or will that be after the Cell Arc is completed in normal DBD?

Don't remember the specifics of how these videos are released

[Gaffer Tape]

So is Lance heading into the Freeza Arc for DBDTV now, or will that be after the Cell Arc is completed in normal DBD?

Don't remember the specifics of how these videos are released

Only once The Cell Arc is completed.

[Tavarano]

Gaffer Tape I have a read a thread where you said that you were displeased with Goku's characterization starting from RoF. did you miss Goku's asshole move in BoG?

[Gaffer Tape]

Gaffer Tape I have a read a thread where you said that you were displeased with Goku's characterization starting from RoF. did you miss Goku's asshole move in BoG?

You'll have to link me to said thread. Perhaps I did say that, but it doesn't sound familiar. And given what I've said about Goku's characterization in Dragon Ball Dissection already, it's easy to see I've had problems with that long, long, long before RoF.

[Tavarano]

I don't remember the thread, but it was something along the lines that BoG was a return of group of friends that you enjoyed while everything else was terrible and you're hoping for the zombie franchise to die with a mention of Goku and direction, though I might misremember something.

I haven't seen the whole dissection yet, only a small part, I plan to but I'm busy at the moment.

By the way there is also one more thing about Toriyama that I'm not sure if you notice, he loves writing abusive kind of humor, specifically the kind where abusive characters come out on top, are never punished and abused ones are forced to deal with it, something like Vegeta rubbing it in for Namekians that villagers of one of the villages weren't ressurected because he killed them or forcing himself in Bulma's house to get a gravity training chamber, it was already there early on with Bulma's diarrhea candy and characters enjoying a meal in front of hungry Goku after the stone race, just scaled up. Beerus and Zeno are great characters for him not only because they treat death and fate worse than death like a joke, but also because they abuse other characters. Goku in this case is also supposed to be emotionally abusive to his family and friends while getting away with it every time, I imagine if DB had been 18+ he would be whoring out Pan for the sake of fights and it would be treated as something innocent by the story with Gohan getting angry about it for all of 2 seconds, this should give you a good idea of what is going on in here.

Spoiler:

So ToP wasn't a setup for Goku's character development (that I remember you said on your twitter), but yet another episode of you can fuck with other characters and nothing will happen to you.

Domestic violence moment probably wasn't so innocent when you recall Goku gritting his teeth with anger at ChiChi in the hospital, and the range of that swing.

[Kid Buu]

After reading this I'm starting to speculate if Goku is a troll character based on the troll author himself.

[Gaffer Tape]

A Smarter Super Saiyan - Dragon Ball Dissection: The Cell Arc Part 13!

Dragon Ball Dissection returns for 2019! Trunks tests his new power against Cell. It doesn't go well. But not to fear! Goku has the answer. Are you surprised? And Cell decides the only way to test his power is to destroy the world because logic is not a trait Dr. Gero gave his creations.